J-Music not so original anymore...

[MadamePapillon]

When I first came across J-Music I was hooked. They seemed so new and original and they were completely different from anything I had come across. Mana blew my mind! So I went through that phase where basically all I listened to was J-Music and I thought all the artists were super original and cute.

But after a year or two it got really dull. The music started to run together because all the male artists seemed to have the same sound as well as the female artists (which I hardly listened to because most sound like squirrells on helium ). The lyrics were uninspired, the videos were either ultra sappy, ultra 'western' (Justin Timberlake wannabes), or ultra wierd. They were basically the same artists in 100 seperate bodies.

And the 'look' which at first was so cool and original seems really repetitive now. Their all sporting the same androgynous stick figure look and the visual-kei aspect has seemed to have settled on a 'formula' which all the male artists follow without much variation.

It all seems really copy cat now. They had a good thing going until everyone and their dog decided to do the EXACT same thing.

I realize this is a HUGE generalization but it's true. It's just not so original anymore.

 

[frostyg02uk]

I agree that many are like the same act without any actual work being done. I think Johnny's entertainment group hasnt helped this at all. But there are still groups like Mr children that have been around since the 1990s and are still spending weeks at number 1 with each new song they bring out. I think kishidan had their own image thing going also. So although many look, act and sing the same there are a few out there that are still very good. But really this is probably the state of the business world wide rather the solely J music. Think how many back street boyish bands we had in the 90s and how many singer/song writings we have now.

 

[MadamePapillon]

I agree that many are like the same act without any actual work being done. I think Johnny's entertainment group hasnt helped this at all. But there are still groups like Mr children that have been around since the 1990s and are still spending weeks at number 1 with each new song they bring out. I think kishidan had their own image thing going also. So although many look, act and sing the same there are a few out there that are still very good. But really this is probably the state of the business world wide rather the solely J music. Think how many back street boyish bands we had in the 90s and how many singer/song writings we have now.

I guess it's the same for music everywhere, you get one good thing going and soon everyones on the bandwagon. But J-Music was like a breath of fresh air in a land of stale music. I guess people like to think of Japan as this hugely original place when it's just like everyone else only Japanese flavored. It was just sort of sad to see it go down like that.

 

[frostyg02uk]

true i think i can understand what you mean, find a good thing and it sells out to global bucks lol. But maybe J music only seemed original because you was new to it. I think there are still good J artists out there to be had like the ones a mentioned and you might like MISIA if you dont know her already. Maybe this thread can bring you in some new talents that you didnt know before.

 

[MadamePapillon]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Damn the almighty dollar smothering true talent! But maybe your right, they can't all be wannabe carbon copies, the good ones are out there somewhere. ^^ But to be honest, my tastes have sort of switched, Japanese music is still alright but I guess as I'm maturing so is my taste in music. Most of it is really aimed towards the teen audience anyways.

 

[frostyg02uk]

yeah of course your taste will change. i use to listen to alot of rap like 2 pac mostly but after a certain age i changed too.
We know teens buy music...but more importantly the mighty mercendise ;o) so it will be aimed at them especially Jpop. I'm only into a very few J bands such as Mr children but really they are probably the only ones i could sit and listen to a full CD rather then a selection of the greatest hits. Todays J poppers have to be models, good dancers, able to star in the doramas and lastly sing...or look good while miming in many cases haha. Money has ruined a few things in recent times such as some sports, its just the world we live in now.

 

[MadamePapillon]

Mores the pity, it degrades the original work when they aren't specializing, music takes the back burner to their image (not just in Japan ^^) it's more important to have that eyelid thing their so obsessed with or a pouty mouth than it is to be able to sing.

And it IS true after all. Money is the root of all evil, or in this case, sub-standard music. XD

 

[Kinsao]

I think you've got a good point. I've been into Japanese music (mostly rock, some orientated towards the 'pop' or 'metal' ends of the spectrum) for about 2 1/2 years now. Of course, I thought 'maybe as I get used to a certain sound, I'll become bored with it', but that hasn't happened in all cases. Some of the bands I liked to listen to at first, I still enjoy a lot. So I don't think it's entirely a question of that, but yes, some loss of originality among the bands as well. 2 1/2 years isn't very long, but it's just about long enough to 'follow' some bands and see the death of some old ones and the birth of new ones. There have been some bands who seemed quite original to me, and I enjoyed their sound, and as they moved along in their work, their sound became more 'boring' to my ears and I became disappointed in them. But in many cases I do still like their older work. I also think this happens with many bands, from all over the world - if they don't keep working hard and keep things fresh, they can fall into a rut.

Also, it's partly a question of having the time to discover good new and/or obscure bands. I used to get hold of a lot of music, and if I'd hear a new name, I'd immediately rush off to listen to some of their songs. But now, new indies bands pop up in discussion all the time but I simply don't have the time to check them out. So I suppose this way I miss some more interesting music.

Like any art/culture and media/entertainment stuff, there's a lot of rubbish and a few gems.

 

[MadamePapillon]

It's not so much the slow decay of the music as it is how cloneish they all are. I've never seen so many clones in my life, all you have to do is look on all those 'cutest jrocker' threads and check out the pix posted. They ALL LOOK THE SAME!! From the way they dress to the way they sound. I'm not sure if they ran out of original ideas or what but it's really really tired.

But the sad thing is everyone eat's it up because the jrockers are so KAWAII....I'm also truly sick of that word. Kawaii this kawaii that. What so great about cute? A puppy should be cute, a kitten should be cute, NOT a full grown man. They look like prepubecent anorexic stick insect girls, what's so cute about that? Isn't anybody thinking it's a bit strange that so many girls are drooling over men who look like...well, GIRLS?

Whatever happened to the real man, and you can argue all you want that Hyde or Miyavi are real men, I will only laugh up my lower intestines. Seriously, what happened to muscles, facial hair, me Tarzan you Jane. Where the hell have all the vikings and scottsmen gone? I'll tell you where. Jrockers ate them, they were so hungry because they never EAT! Somebody feed those poor guys!

...alright, I'm done ranting....don't know where that came from........

But seriously, you really like those jrockers...you should mail them a cheeseburger, I'm sure they'd appreciate it.

 

[frostyg02uk]

Lol i was actually thinking today.... many J rockers aint that...Rock.

I mean guys that look like girls, sure queen did it but not on a daily basis. I know exactly what you mean about how everyone has a J popper as their sig and they do all look the same. I remember a few years ago seeing a model on Tv in Japan and he had a good face but he was about 5ft 5 and probably weighed about 7 stone. Men dont weigh 7 stone...ever. (for those willing to compare i should have a photo on here, i weigh 13.7 stone and im by no means over weight).

Im too young to rant about music but its very true that many J poppers do look, dress and sing the same stuff. I think Asian kung fu generation are probably rock and can call themselves J rockers but many others....ive seen pebbles that are more rock then them..and heavier.

 

[Kinsao]

Yeah it's true that a lot of bands look really really similar. But I have to say that I've also been put off listening to some music because of that, which is kind of sad and also closed-minded on my part. For instance, I first heard Brain Hacker before I ever saw any pictures of them, and when I finally visited their website, I was like, 'If I'd seen these guys first, I'd probably never have checked out their music!' - in other words, assuming they were a 'cookie-cutter' vk band when actually their music is quite unique. Since then, I was determined not to get caught out that way in the future.

It's absolutely true that the identical cloneishness of many lesser-known indies 'visual' bands does put me off trying them, and I have no doubt that because of that I'm missing out on some genuinely good music.

As far as them looking like 'girls', I really don't have a problem with that (probably since I know they are actually guys, so my brain perceives them as men), and I think a lot of the time it's because they are wearing makeup and jewellery, as well as being thin with small delicate facial features compared with western guys which makes them look more 'girlish' (since they look feminine even when wearing costumes that aren't specifically 'female'). We have a way of seeing someone with makeup and jewellery and registering either 'girl' or 'girly', but in fact these fashions change over time (in England hundreds of years ago men used to wear long powdered wigs and lots of jewellery!).

However, the 'sad'/weird thing is not the way J-rockers look, but the fact that so many people seem to be under the illusion that all young Japanese guys are so feminine and pretty. ☝

I know what you mean about the 'real men', though. I have a weakness for hairy sweaty muscular Scandinavian drummers... haha (well, not really, but hmmm, if they are good-looking... ;-) ). I think when people touch the real world, they find these real men are not so unattractive after all.. ;-)

 

[frostyg02uk]

Haha. i dont think there is anything wrong with looking like a girl. but trying to look like a girl..yeah thats wrong. Heres a perfect (and easy to find)
example.
http://www.roger666.narod.ru/ind_8marta1.jpg

Im not sure how dressing like this helps you to sing and make music. And no doubt alot of women like them but...why if they look like women? My grandmother use to have a neighbour who were lesbians. One of them looked, acted and dressed like a man and i use to wonder...why doesnt that other women just go out with a man then?
know what i mean? I dont think men should be sweaty, ignorant and muscle heads to be real men lol but at just be normal.

 

[Kinsao]

Well, obviously the way people dress/look doesn't have any effect on the music they make... that goes for bands of every country/culture but all bands still pay some attention to their 'image'.

In the west I think attention to 'image' is mainly a marketing tool to use all possible ways to attract fans to a band as well as the music itself. However with some bands (both western and Japanese), the 'image' also becomes part of the band's music in a kind of wider way, combining the two to create what is really more like a theatre performance than a concert. Malice Mizer's and Moi dix Mois' concerts are prime examples of this. Obviously when you go to see a band live, you're seeing a 'performance' rather than just hearing the music, so the visual aspects will have a bigger effect. From this perspective it makes good sense to me to invest effort into the visual side of things as well (although I would say that, being a visual artist and also into theatre, lol).

In short, in my view great music is the solid core and the most vital, important thing for any band... and ideally they would 'wrap' this, so to speak, in great visuals for their live performances, to make an amazing experience for the audience. But as regards things like their CD cases, photobooks, magazine appearances, merchandise and that... well, they are 'only' marketing tools. In some ways they help to bring the music-buyers closer to the 'all-over' experience of the concert-goers, by including that visual element, but it can't be the same and anyway is secondary to the actual sound that finds its way onto the CD.

As for why girls like them when they look like girls... one theory is that it's because they are somehow unthreatening... they are men, but not strong muscle-bound men with sweaty hairy armpits (lol)... they make useful sex-objects for girls because they never actually have to engage with/relate to them as 'real men'... girls can admire their hair, their makeup and their slim build in ways they would also admire about another girl, but it's less easy to express your admiration for another girl without *perhaps* 'fearing' being thought of as 'lesbian' (this is only a wild and random theory, btw!) but they can happily admire the girly looks of a man, with the added advantage they can make sexy jokes about him but without much possibility they will ever actually have to hang out with said J-rocker and be exposed to his uncouth beer-drinking, smoking, sweaty, hairy, inelegant, smelly, macho, posing, lazing, irritable and unpleasant habits.

 

[frostyg02uk]

Hahaha are men really that bad? im so sorry i didnt know what i was doing !! ;o((

I know that how a band dresses can often be their hmm i cant think of the word but i mean, for example the red hot chilli peppers. We think of the on stage we think of them not wearing shirts. But the best example of making a positive image is probably by these guys (ive been dying to introduce them haha)

http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=kishidan&search=Search

When i first seen them i thought "these are the uncoolest band ive ever seen, with that hair..is it real?" But really they have marketed themselves really well without any or much makeup and they are heavy. The lead singer is now DJ ozma who still knows how to create a image that will keep him in the limelight lol.

 

[MadamePapillon]

lol, ouch Kinsao Brutal. But you make a good point. The fantasy is always more fufilling than reality in many cases, probably especially for japanese artists because many have this idea that Japan is some sort of utopia society and so anything associated with it (Jrockers for example) are put on this pedestel just for being from Japan. No lie, I've seen this attitude in action.

But, it's no so much that they look feminine as that many seem to go out of their way to BE feminine, making their voices higher, having their hair in a typically girlish cut, wearing feminine clothes, hell, even posing for pictures in dresses or other such female garb.
It just like...what, how's about we switch it around and celebrate masculinity for a change instead of trying to shave them and pour them into leather pants two sizes to small.

Oh, and frosty, that band is insane XD. I swear I've seen an anime where the characters had the exact same hair . DJ ozma kinda annoyed me, another one of those guys that are trying to copy the western formula but don't quite get it right. That girl that came up and was doing that Pussycat Doll move against him, meh. I'm sorry if I'm discriminating but most japanese ppl just CAN'T pull of the R&B/ Hip Hop moves. They can get the motion right but they don't have the attitude to back it up.

A lot of bands like Linkin Park or Coldplay, they don't have a gimmick or a look but damn can they sing. And they usually have excellent lyrics to back it up. It's a nice switch from say, Britney Spears who is all gimmick.

 

[dakkii]

ah!! getting in on this conversation late!!

madame's point about the "japanese utopia"... i completely agree. for many people in my experiance, jrock and jrockers are more than music. they become a total obsession and a place fans, especially of the teenage girl variety, feel they belong. it's like a complete fantasy world, where these flawless exotic men exist purely for them to fawn over and write fanfiction about. also, these fans will most likely never meet these men, so their perfect idea of them will never be tarnished. i'm definately not speaking for everyone here, but it does pop up everywhere jrock fans congregate. and many jrockers admit and acknowledge that it exists, as 80% of the audience at [visual kei] lives are female. this is also why fanservice is so big (seriously, can you FIND fanservice anywhere else in the world???)

metal over here is basically a "boy club" as it's been put. i mean, sweaty ugly guys. yea. love the music, but a lot of metal began, to the best of my limited knowledge, as a breaking free of expectations, both from society and from the "tame-ness" women brought (not my quote, just passing it along XD). so i really see visual kei as more of a "girl's club", as the men are anything but feral and really are just the opposite of the "metal man". they've assimalated to the "tamers"-- women.

basically, japan is going through its boyband stage. that's all these bands are, really. of course some people must have actually liked the backstreet boy's actual music, but come on, that wasn't the backstreet boy's goal. really it's become the stepping stone to fame, visual kei. there are so many TINY vk bands that survive soley on looks, even if EVERYONE is doing it now. meanwhile, look at bands like poor 'transtic nerve'-- TN isn't vk and has been trying unsuccessfully to take off for a long time now... they've released something like 6 or 8 albums and they sound pretty good; nothing the average jrock fan wouldn't love. my theory is that, to get signed in the first place, bands become vk, even if it's just to get their music out. and who's to say that's not admirable; doing anything just to have one's music heard. but bands really get sucked into it and can't leave... like how Dir en grey lost a chunk of it's fanbase for losing the dresses. so vk bands are ultimately stuck on the same cult fanbases with the same tour routes releasing the same music. or they could just get into it for the mass female attention. i mean, if you told any one of my guy friends, however macho they act, that if they put on makeup and dresses they could have a country and a half of girls fangirling over them, they would drop the pants in a second XD


gaaaaah sorry this was kind of hard to read with my allergic reaction to capital letters XD

 

[RevengeBabyYeah]

Madame Papillon- This is a really interesting thread, so thanks.
What Kinsao was saying was absolutely right. I admit I'm one of those fangirls and I know why I'm doing it. These guys are idealised. Fanservice,VK, none of that's ever going to happen in real life. They are presented as being perfect with none of the flaws that women expect in men. Also these guys have features and clothes I'd want for myself. I think that makes some girls identify with them more. They're impossibly beautiful and so far removed from everything I'm used to. Then again androgynous guys have been celebrated in many different world cultures like the ancient greeks and India's Mughal empire.
The guys are objectified, much the same as women in lad mags. They're dressed up so that people will look and pay attention and so listen to the music. Dakki- yeah you've got a good point. We (fangirls) know there hundreds other fans out there with exactly the same interests. E.g when i'm talking about why i like a band or artists I often use the pronoun 'we' because it really does feel like a community precisely because these men are from a different country which makes them seem exotic.
Of course music should be about music, and I do genuinely love the music. Yes so 'The Good Old Days' have passed but as someone else said there is good music out there but disguised to look like a million other artists. This Oshare Kei scene will probably pass too and they'll be some new 'look/sound' everyone can copy.

Sorry i know most of that was repetitive crap and not about the music but my medicine makes me drowsy lol

 

[Kinsao]

Slightly offtopic but... Transtic Nerve sound interesting; I should probably check them out.

J-rockers are kinda like us ladies' version of calendar girls. We need our bit of visual self-indulgence as well!

Personally I like European metal as well as J-rock, because (a) I don't give a damn what bands look like as long as the music is good, not to say nice looks aren't a bonus but it doesn't actually matter at all, and (b) I have a weakness for muscular sweaty macho musicians anyway, what can I say? but seriously... hmmmmmm... thinking about it... there is also something kinda interesting in having 'macho' sounding music (like for example, the music of D) and when you see the musicians, they look really girly and delicate... kind of makes you readjust your preconceptions or just gives you a fresher slant on things in some way (although I'm not sure how exactly!).

Perhaps strangely, I do think that most of the girls who fangirl over/idolise J-rockers actually are perfectly aware that they are idealised figureheads, as RevengeBaby has said; I think that their 'fangirls', even young teenagers, are for the most part aware that they aren't seeing the 'real' person behind the image and that the J-rockers will most likely be quite 'normal' offstage and such... but they still don't want to break the image, because there's a feeling of 'let's just pretend and enjoy it'... and as long as people don't become to take it too serious, there's no harm in that either. ;-)

P.S. My bloke shaves all-over and has been known to wear items of clothing of dubious provenance and sizing, but is certainly all man, so the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[MadamePapillon]

I'm also a fan of european metal, though mostly from germany as I'm not that familiar with much else (any recommendations??). And I gotta admit, I'm a bit resentful of the whole 'boy's club' and 'girls' club' thing. I know girls on the whole are considered more tame and into happy flowery things but I hate it when I get that shocked attitude when people find out I like metal and play violent video games and watch dark movies. Though granted it's probably because I look like a real girly girl, and I'll be the first to admit I come off as a ditzy bubble on occasion Appearances are decieving.

Anyways, back on topic. I've noticed japan doesn't seem to have the same respect for 'real' or 'raw' music as europe and north america and whoever else. They prefer to have a happy peppy fantasy (especially in those damn female artists) and even those male artists who like to call themselves rockers and dress up in leather could still be considered pop artist compared to what we're used to. It's hard to take them seriously.

They seem to like to dress up and present everything in a very nice, beautiful and doll-like manner. Or in an insanely childish way. They don't appear to like anything truly real and prefer escapism and fantasy in their music. ☝ I don't know anybody that's actually from japan so I couldn't say how they view music but most of it is just disposable fluff with a few exceptions but not much that actually has an opinion or a message, or even just depth. Why is that?

 

[Kinsao]

Hmmm, I'm not sure about the messages in the lyrics... just as many of the lyrics are shallow as in western pop music (and also in Europe we have just as much metal with crappy lyrics I'm sure! ;-) ) but also there are some bands who write songs with more meaningful or thought-provoking lyrics, about those universal themes like love, loss and death, which are written about over and over again in all cultures but seems like new every time. And also political lyrics like some of the Dir en grey stuff. So some of the rock bands do put forward their opinion or a 'message'...

... but I take your point relating to the 'clean', doll-like image and the way it seems like the image is sanitized and made all nice... to me this is a separate thing from whether the lyrics are any good or not but rather, something to do with the image itself and what is marketable in Japan. You are right, they don't go for the filthy and rough-round-the-edges look that you find in western rock and metal; even when they do try something like that it's always far cleaner and more 'staged'. I think this is just to do with Japanese culture and what kind of visual image sells, rather than something inherant in the music as well (although there may well be links).

 

[dakkii]

yes, escapism and fantasy in Japan are preferred to the reality. I've been studying the sociology of Japan on my own for a while now (so i could go on about this XD), and it's very much a child-like country in many ways, like you said. i haven't learned enough to say "why" yet, but it's very interesting... it isn't about jrock or anything, but you should read this book if you're interested in it like me:
Amazon product ASIN 0385513038it's about hikikomori, which is also a very interesting uniquely japanese phenominon, but it's focus is more on "why", so it talks a lot about japanese society as a whole.

and yea, i hate the "boys'/girls' club" thing aswell... when i say i like metal no one takes me seriously, neither the haters nor the fans. >__<

 

[MadamePapillon]

Good link, dakkii, the title 'Shutting out the Sun' it kind of brought to mind Japans strange love of concrete and paving over their natural resources.

This is hugely off topic but I think in a big way Japan is really sufforcating itself. Some of the most disturbing imagery I've ever seen has come from there and I just find it wierd how they go out of their way and spend ridiculous amounts of money on the strangest things, like imitating westerners. Makes you wonder what is going on with them when the most popular plastic surgeries in japan are designed to make them look more 'western' or that they are the top consumers of name brands like Loius Vitton.

You get the overwhelming sense that Japan doesn't want to be japanese and that's just strange, especially considering they have a huge following of westerners that think japan is the best thing since sliced bread. Hmm.

 

[Nuala]

All music is derived from one genre or another, and with that said, other artists too. There are these things called trends, and artist creativity can only go as far as the recording label says it can. :/

 

[MadamePapillon]

All music is derived from one genre or another, and with that said, other artists too. There are these things called trends, and artist creativity can only go as far as the recording label says it can. :/

For most artist, yes, especially new ones but with the very well established and popular artists often they have enough pull to take control of their music but they choose to play it safe. Both artists and their labels get lazy with success and that leads to crap music.

And I don't know how you get that all music comes from one genre. There is a big difference between metal and soul, or rap and opera, not to mention the countless sub-genres.

 

[Nuala]

For most artist, yes, especially new ones but with the very well established and popular artists often they have enough pull to take control of their music but they choose to play it safe. Both artists and their labels get lazy with success and that leads to crap music.
And I don't know how you get that all music comes from one genre. There is a big difference between metal and soul, or rap and opera, not to mention the countless sub-genres.

I didn't mean to say that all music comes from one genre, the spectrum in music is vast. Any music you hear has it's roots, and rules to abide by, do you know what I mean? I'm exhausted at the moment, lol.