WW-II, Atrocities, Comfort Women

[joho]

Japan did not apologise until recently. Kunichiro Koizumi had no choice. China is now a powerful country, both economically and militarily, and China insists nothing short of a formal apology will mend the past.

Question -

Millions of innocent lives were snubbed out in Asia by Japanese troops.

For 60 years, Japan refused to admit guilt and DID NOT apologise for their WWII murderous acts.

WHY ?

 

[senseiman]

I agree with Joho, asking "how could she tell those 5,000 people were innocent?" is a truly disgusting thing to say. An apology is definitely necessary, questioning the honesty of someone's grandmother is extremely rude, especially given the obvious personal connection Joho has with this issue.

The fact is that the Japanese had no right to be in Singapore and that any Singaporean killed by the Japanese was innocent by virtue of the illegitimacy of the Japanese occupation.

Japan certainly did not liberate any countries, it conquered them and treated them just as badly if not worse than the Europeans did. And after being 'liberated' by the Japanese they went right back to being European colonies after the war anyway.

I think what Joho means by a lack of sincerity in Japanese apologies is that one day the prime minister says sorry and the next day he goes to Yasakuni Shrine and prays for the dead souls of war criminals. A lot of right wing politicians think like you that Japan did these countries some sort of a favour by invading them. They have no real feeling of guilt over what Japan did, but are in fact proud of it. You will never hear a German politician bragging about how beneficial the occupation of Poland was to the Poles, but Japanese politicians seem to think their occupation of China, in many ways equally as brutal, was somehow charitable.

 

[KenUmedaira]

>most Japanese Commanders used the same line
yeah, because they need proof to decide whether or not those applicants were lying. It's just ridiculous to compensate without it. Even you don't do such a thing. Do you pay to me if I suddenly scream out for money, because my lost aunt was raped by your father? I want to be nice to you, but what you are telling me is just illogical.

>Btw, I didnt hear a word of sorry or apology from you - for my grandfather's murder by Japanese soldier.

If it is true it's a sad thing and would not be hesitant to send my condolences, BUT I don't know if that's true - and I cannot apologize to what I don't know if true or not.
What I know is that, there are people who tell lies in this world.

Another thing which makes me sad is that, you are seemingly trying to use your grandfather's death as a tool to discriminate Japanese.
Anyway, I can keep this on and on but really think we should play around with someone's death which cannot be proven to be true - so I recommend we both stop talking about it.

> Question -
Please show me a proof by which I can agree "Millions of innocent lives" were snubbed out.

So far I don't think that's true, although there must have been casualties who were mistaken as spies, or brutally murdered by some (not majority) Japanese soldiers who disobeyed wartime rules.

My counter - question to you :
Why hasn't people bring the "proofs" of crimes of Japanese troops to Japanese embassy or MFA? then they will pay - if they are proven to be true.

 

[KenUmedaira]

senseiman,

I also recognize this is not a pleasant thing to talk about - how to prove if those killed were innocent or not.
But this is unavoidable when someone tells such a thing on a net and suddenly ask for an apology (and even more).
We all know it cannot be proved, so why don't we talk about something more productive or fruitful?

>it conquered them and treated them just as bad if not worse than the Europeans did

Just one point - Japan paid money to them when those countries became independent, while no Europeans or conquerers in America or Australia paid to those natives.
There are still so many bad words on this issue, but I believe Japan's liberation of some Asian countries (may not be all countries, though) would be correctly evaluated in future.

About YasukuniJinja - serious error in your comment.
There are no war criminals in Yasukuni jinja.
Those several dozens who were jailed or executed by the Allies - based on Tokyo Trials, but the trials were nothing but mere revenge by the Allied powers. The Japanese government has officially announced that a long time ago. Anyway, Yasukuni and many Jinja in Japan are places to calm the souls of those who died in the tragedy - and going there is not an encouragement of war.

And if those Asian countries do not like it, why don't they call back ambassadors and close doors of relationships?

 

[KenUmedaira]

One more thing about Yasukunijinja.

This is an illogical claim from China and Korea:
It was not until 1985 China firstly claimed about Japanese Prime minister going to Yasukunijinja. But until then this was regularly done (after WWII, some 40 times by Japanese Prime Minister) and they said nothing. NOTHING.
China suddenly started this as if they have been concerned for hell of a long time - and this is obviously for political purpose.
Besides, current Chinese government is a communist government, and Japan didn't fight them. Japan fought GuoMing party which were against communist party and later "retrieved" to Taiwan.

 

[joho]

Ken

If you cease to be sceptical, maybe you will start to believe and trust in the goodness of others.

I am happy for this chance opportunity to air my grievances about Japan's past aggression to a real live Japanese. I started searching for answers for a long time. Why? Because my family often talked about our grandfather. I began searching the internet to chat with a few British War veterans who are still alive. That's how I found Arthur Lane. You could write to Arthur and asked him if I talked to him about my grandfather's death under the Japanese samurai sword.

Now, at least I know my grandfather would be pleased that I have spoken to a Japanese about his murder. I am more convinced now why Japan refuses to apologise for millions of fellow Asians' death sincerely. I salute your nationalistic spirit, albeit in the wrong spirit.

 

[senseiman]

Ken, you seem to be of the beleif that the Japanese commited NO crimes during the war, which I find very hard to believe.

Its true that the western countries haven't paid any compensation or made apologies for their colonial rule, while Japan has in some cases. But that is seperate from the issue of whether Japan 'liberated' or 'conquered' those countries in the first place. It seems quite clear from the historical record (as well as common sense) that the Japanese didn't invade these countries because they wanted the people to be free, it was purely motivated by self-interest.

As for the Tokyo trials, they were one-sided and hypocritical. But that does not exonerate the Japanese for the atrocities they commited, it just means that a lot of Allied generals should have been tried for war crimes too.

 

[bossel]

Ken:

Nanjing massacre:
Have you read the link? I think, it says that even most Japanese historians now agree that there was a massacre.
There was not only 1 witness.
My sources are mostly Western (not Chinese, if you might think so), partly from the internet.

German reparations:
Don't know of any recent website, but you can find some numbers in my attachment. It's from Fisch: "Reparationen nach dem 2. Weltkrieg", calculated on the basis of 1938 dollar-value.
Ost-/Gesamtdeutschland = Eastern/whole Germany
ﾃ??都terreich = Austria
offiziell = official
Gesamtleistungen = overall compensations
Besatzungskosten = cost of allied occupation
pro Kopf = per capita

 

[bossel]

foundation:
It was created because individual companies were sued for forced labour compensation. It's supposed to compensate all claims against German companies, so they can go on in their business without constantly dealing with individual lawsuits. It was created in mutual consent of victims' organizations, economy & the governments of Germany & the US.
German government & economy both paid into the fund.

More info:

Wayback Machine

web.archive.org

Unit 731:
The records are in Japan, ask your government. The copies in the US have only been made publicly available rather recently, they (the NARA, I think) have only just begun to examine it. The US administration itself has not made public any content yet, AFAIK.

 

[KenUmedaira]

joho, senseiman and bossel:

Please forgive my absence for a long time as I have involved in business trips as well as tourism to Singapore:

There are so many things going on here simultaneously, so I start again with important things.

joho:
I have been studying about activities of the Japanese Imperial force in Singapore. So far what I have found out is, that there were many Chinese Singaporeans who Japanese Army killed (technically this term is incorrect - actually it should be called Chinese UK citizens in Singapore, as Singapore was a part of UK and Japan was fighting against the UK, not to Asian countries).

How this happened was, UK troops surrendered after Japanese force conquered the island, with the mutual agreement that UK troops and Chinese voluntary soldiers disarm. But a part of the Chinese soldiers ignored this. It disguised themselves into laypeople (this is against international customs and Hague Treaty) - which made Japanese force start searching for the soldiers.

There were five Japanese troops in Singapore, although three kept out of the main city to avoid troubles.
One of the two troops was led by Satoru Ohnishi - according to his book, their group had several laypeople wear masks to keep them anonymous and testify names of doubtful people. They also checked with lists of anti-Japanese societies - by this method they executed at largest 1,000 people.

I have not yet found a record about the other troops. Still, I read an article about Mamoru Shinozaki, an ex-officer at Japanese consulate there, who helped innocent Chinese Singaporeans from executions by a lieutenant-colonel named Tsuji. And it reports there must have been cases which Tsuji ordered his men to "execute" suspects although that was not an intention of up above.

Therefore, now I do believe there were such casualties as you mentioned. Even though it was caused by one crazy commander and not the Japanese Imperial force's whole intention, Tsuji's order was refused several times as some of his men didn't believe them. Also, there were Japanese who protected Chinese Singaporeans like Shinozaki. Besides, those Chinese voluntary soldiers are also to blame; they ignored the risk of involving citizens into the purge.
However, I am to send my condolences to those innocent people who were slaughtered and sending my personal apology for remarks which may have offended you.

Senseiman:
I think you misunderstood - I have never said Japanese committed NO crimes at war. In fact, there is not even one country who did not commit any war crimes.
Japan did send forces to European colonies in Asia, and its purpose was, of course, self-defence for the first place. However, I still believe it was also their wish to liberate those countries - but for a reason related to self-defence. Japanese force surely knew they could not keep fighting without help of other Asian people, and Japanese soldiers did help Burma, India, Malaysia, Indonesia, to name a few.
But, if Japan had won the war, the world would not have been as good as this reality today - and I think it was good for the world to have Japan lose the war and became a peaceful nation.

bossel:
Nanjing massacre - in fact, some support this, some don't here.
And as far as I searched Nihon Nanking Gakkai has shown the most
detailed and reliable data which deny this incident.

German reparations - thanks for explanation - however, I am somewhat unable to open the BMP file. Don't know why. But if my understanding is the correct foundation has solved the problem so there will be no more lawsuits in the U.S.? I would appreciate your thoughts.

Unit 731 - thanks info, I will try searching for records.

 

[KenUmedaira]

I just want to correct a sentence in my previous post:

>one crazy commander
Actually there were more than one serviceman who had bad feelings against Chinese in Singapore and there must have been more than one who led to the same behavior as Tsuji did.
The article I read explain this is because Chinese in Singapore and Malaysia financially assisted Chinese Nationalists led by Jiang Jie Shi who fought against Japan, and those Chinese organized anti-Japanese resistance as well as voluntary force when Japan fought UK in Singapore.

joho< if you are interested in the article I can briefly translate it for you.

 

[bossel]

bmp-file:
I think, it works when you right-click on it, then "save [link] target as..." (depends on your browser).

reparations:
For what I know, all cases of forced labour in the US will be dealt with by the foundation. I have not heard recently of any pending law suits there.
But I think, for quite a while into the future there will be people all over the world trying to get compensation although the gouvernments have already bilateral agreements. Most of those cases will probably be dismissed, though.

 

[joho]

Hi Ken

I am faintly aware of that article. Of course, there were other war atrocities cases and testimonies from Japanese soldiers against their own commanders.

I find no pleasure in blaming any Japanese or British soldier for killing civilians. If anyone should be blamed for war atrocities, it should be the head of state or military rulers. Foot soldiers were forced to kill because maybe they believe in military propaganda or nationalism. Or simply it's because they had to kill or be killed - by their own commander or enemy.

 

[KenUmedaira]

Hi joho,

>Foot soldiers were forced to kill because maybe they believe in military propoganda or nationalism

After studying this history my opinion is that those foot soldiers obeyed orders to execute "suspects for terrorism" although some of them surely knew innocent people must have been confused in the arrested (that's why there were soldiers who double-checked orders or demanded written command to find out Tsuji's order was true).
But the main reason I suppose they must have believed they had to do it, was in order to maintain safety of the city.

If anyone should be blamed.... If so, I think some of Chinese voluntary soldiers should be blamed as well as those bad commanders like Masanobu Tsuji. They should have disarmed at least. Those guys chose to carry weapons and use civilians as "shields" to protect them which I think is the largest reason for involving civilians into tragedy.
Once occupation started Japan was responsible for maintaining public peace in the city, so they could not have ignored the fact that there were a risk of terror by armed Chinese voluntary soldiers - which reminds me of current situation U.S. troops have been facing in Iraq.

joho, I am just curious - is there anyone who also criticize the action those Chinese voluntary soldiers took? It is a fact that they ignored the truce condition and put many civilians' lives in jeopardy - if we both are to learn something from history this should be mentioned as well....

 

[joho]

In WWII, anyone who defended Singapore against Japanese aggression is a hero in the eyes of Singaporean, Asians and the world!

Unfortunately you were not there to see the dead civilian bodies after Japanese Bombers strafed Singapore day and night. Thousands died in the initial air assaults by Japan. Those airial bombings were carried out to cower the population so that Singaporeans would submit to Japanese Occupation.

 

[KenUmedaira]

noted your idea but several things Chinese voluntary soldiers did were obviously wrong, especially they involved civilians into fight against Japanese force. And some Japanese commanders like Tsuji did wrong things. So I still believe the responsibility rests with both sides, and it is essential to realize how and why it happened in order to prevent such thing happen again.
Japanese soldiers are heros in Japan - as well as those soldiers in Singapore - I do pay respect to them, but I have not forgotten this.

Remember, guerrilla tactics were, and still are not allowed - it's a war crime. This rule must have been kept in order to protect civilians. It was unfortunate your heros were the first to ignore rights of innocent civilians and gave reasons to bad commander like Tsuji chance to justify his cruel wish. Singaporeans should keep this in mind, too - it is easy, but not sufficient to blame Japanese side only. Because of the terrors under Japanese occupation, they had to start searching for terrorists.

>Unfortunately you were not there to see
you were not there, either, right? We both just heard from someone else.
I know war at that time always involved civilians and it is really tragic. But it does not justify Chinese voluntary soldiers to ignore truce rules and risk civilians' lives. Nor does it justify Masanobu Tsuji's insane "Sook Ching" orders which was personally issued.

 

[traveljapan]

Originally posted by KenUmedaira
Japanese government did pay compensation... you guys don't know it?

What about all the U.S. POWs in WWII held by the Japanese? They were never compensated for the tortures they went through, and their treatment was clearly against the Geneva Convention. They also were forced to work for Japanese companies during the war. In the 1950s, the Japanese and U.S. governments made an agreement to not pursue these issues for trade reasons. There are efforts to reverse this, and allow former U.S. POWs to be compensated, but politicians are always leery of rocking the boat, and the years continue to pass.

 

[Watcher]

Oh Boy...I hope people read my posts...

I don't want to go ranting again. Please see my posts earlier.

Ken: you are either 1) brainwashed by the faulty Japanese education system... or 2) have a strong bias for Japan if you aren't a Japanese native.

Bottom line: Japan needs to sincerely apologize. Then perhaps, only then, could this issue be started to be put to rest. But you know, I don't see that really happening.

Just my thoughts...

 

[joho]

I told myself not to revisit this forum and was surprised when I recently noticed Watcher's post. So here I am back after 17 months of absence.

I have added a new page to my website, and it's something to do with the Japanese Imperial Army's cruel treatment of hospital patients, nurses and doctors in Singapore. This incident happened just 1 day before the British Army surrendered to the Japanese Army in 1942.

You can view it at
http://www.singaporean.per.sg/Alexandra_hospital_massacre.html

If any Japanese, especially Ken, still insists on Japan's innocence I suggest you go to -

Japanese Occupation

web.archive.org

- and find out more of Japanese Imperial Army's atrocities.

 

[lemiel]

to Kenumedaira

I read your post
"If it is true, it's a sad thing and would not be hesitant to send my condolences, BUT I don't know if that's true - and I cannot apologize to what I don't know if true or not.
What I know is that there are people who tell lies in this world."

I do not want to criticize you, but I will try to find information about that and decide between apologizing and refutation.

So I give this Photo about Japanese troops' war Criminal to you. These acts were so terrible in modern times... How do you think about that?

http://blog.naver.com/ymwolf__/40005767149

First image is Young girl was killed by Japan police.

Second image is not proof of Japan War criminal.

other image are proof of Nanjing massacre

That consisted japan newspaper article that praised Japan soldier's beheading competition.

Do you think this photo cannot be proof of Japanese war crime?

 

[Revenant]

Those who cannot let go of the past are forever enslaved by the past, and cannot live and experience the now as the now should be experienced. To forgive is much more conducive to happiness.

 

[PaulTB]

Those who cannot let go of the past are forever enslaved by the past, and cannot live and experience the now as the now should be experienced. To forgive is much more conducive to happiness.

Forgive, but not necessarily forget and certainly not deny.

 

[lemiel]

Yes, To forgive is much more conducive to happiness. I agree.
I think Korea and Japan need each other because of East Asia's peace.
But Who can forgive injurer who deny the crime, and be proud of his past actions?

See this saying...

In 1982, Japan Land minister, "松野幸泰" said
"Korean textbook can be wrong. For example, Nobody knows right or wrong about Korean history text that was written that japan invaded Korea."

In 1986, education minister"Husio Masayuki" said first.
"Do not say again! malcontent think about his nation did the same thing in history."
And apologized saying. but he says "I remain my opinion in the politician."

and education minister"Husio Masayuki," said second
"If Invasion were, Victim people thought about their problem. At that time, Whoever made Korea to the colony, so Japan's invasion was not perfectly true. Victim nation had blame and trouble", and he was fired.

and "Husio Masayuki," said third in 文藝春秋
"at that time, Japan's politic was the same imperialism with Western Power. But, it's an unfairness that only japan was critisize. Korea was an inability and weak. the half responsibility of "unhappy history between Korea and Japan" was Korean's."

in 1995, Watanabe Michio, the past diplomatic minister said
"Japan controlled Korea. But there was not colonization in San Francisco's agreement, so Annex was lawful. It was not forced. If people call that, [Colonization], [Invasion war], It makes many problems."

in 1996, the general affairs department minister "Eto Takami" said
"at that time, Japan's invasion was bad. But did good thing. Japanese did not think that Korean were Colony people. and We did not steal the cultural assets of Korea, china(****, Too many cultural assets were stolen and robbed) like England, France."
and In Off, the record "Murayama's apologizing was not true."

in Obuchi ministry, Japan agriculture minister "中川昭一" said
" Forced Sex slaves were not true."

In 小泉純一郞(Koizumi Junichiro)ministry, Japan education minister "Nakayama" said
"In the new textbook, Reducing "從軍慰安婦, sex slave", "Forced going together" was Good thing."

How do you think? Can you say "they are a few people in Japan?"
They were minister, Politician in upper apologizing.
Can you think that true, formal Apologizing?

Despite that abider of japan, Korean and Chinese Demand that Japan apologizes formal, truly was too excessive and persistent?

 

[Shooter452]

In spite of that absurd of Leader of japan, Korean and chinese's Demand that Japan apologize fomal, truly was too excessive and persistencial?

No, it is not excessive at all. The Japanese were barbaric throughout the war and have yet to totally come to grips with it. Altering the history texts to make themselves out to be victims is disgusting and a crime in itself.

There are no clean hands in the Sino-Japanese or the Pacific War. It was cruel beyond consideration, and all sides approached it from the view of a racial war, where the "other side" was subhuman and deserving of extermination. But Japan must accept greater responsibility and shame for their acts before they can ever purge themselves of those acts. Concealling, fabricating, and prevaricating are not the paths to enlightenment. Only facing squarely and admitting--including some breast-beating and little ashes in the hair--are the only way, and they ain't there yet, folks.

They are still whining about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and saying "look what you did to us!" Their hypocritical eyes refuse to glance at the horribly tupendous acts that were done in their name.

If the Germans were forced to wear a collar of guilt for sixty years because of what happened in Europe, it is only right that the Japanese step up to the plate and take one for the team also.

 

[sabro]

The attrocities committed by Japan in China and throughout Asia from the 1930's to the end of WWII are well known by everyone but the Japanese and well documented by any historical standard. The attrocities were appalling, and usually unprovoked and because Japan was the sole aggressor in the area, she bears the entire the fault and reponsibility. Appologies from persons not yet born at the time are probably less important than simple acknowlegement of this past. To excuse it, deny it, or devalue it is a harmful insult to those who suffered and to their descendents.

I watched "The Fog of War" about former Defense Secretary Robert Macnamara.
He spoke of the cruel math that he was involved in during WWII: how many US lives per acre of Japan destroyed...He repeated the quote by Gen Curtis Lemay about being glad that we won the war, because they would be tried as war criminals if they lost. Although every culture tries to paint the best picture of its own history, it does not serve future generations (in Japan, present generations) if that picture is a total fiction. In the US, we need to remember the Indian Wars and attrocities committed against native Americans, slavery, the treatement of Irish, Chinese, Russian and other immigrant groups. Segregation, the Depression and Japanese-American internment. Real History is better than fake. How can you even begin to understand your past if the story you have is not just an optomistic retelling, but an outright lie?

Macnamara also brought up the point that in the days after the first bomb, raids on other targets continued. If Japan had not surrendered, the bombing would have intensified, along with coastal shelling from surface ships until more atomic bombs could be prepared. Millions of civillians would have died.