What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

WW-II, Atrocities, Comfort Women

arnadstephen

先輩
Joined
8 Oct 2002
Messages
195
Reaction score
2
From what I can see;

---> World War II issues are growing too old
---> to be an issue. Hell if you were 18 year old
---> in 1945, you would be 75 years old today !!!
---> Time is taking over this issue


---> The look into the atrocities of the past
---> are coming out in Japan. While n-o-t as
---> forcefull as Germans look at their past,
---> they are very open to their past.
---> BUT, see my point above.

stephen-florida
_.
 

kinjo

Sempai
Joined
15 Mar 2002
Messages
4,835
Reaction score
31
Stephen that is a very open and honest opinion on the above matters but not all people see life as richly as you, in other peoples opinions these issues are very close to their hearts and try to analyase(spell?)the reasons that has caused these tramatic instances to take place and spend a life time living with the aftermath and impact on everyday life, thier opinions are valid just as your is, 🙂 and its different thoughts and emotions that makes the world go round and makes us all so unique.

:clap:
 

moyashi

Sempai
Joined
15 Apr 2002
Messages
1,571
Reaction score
13
Germany vs. Japan

Japan was never analyzed in depth by groups like those formed by the holocaust victims. Also, I've never seen any program that went in depth as the one that was shown weekly in the states about the holocaust.

Interestingly enough, late last night I saw a holocaust program with Braun Bakeries and all.

My parents are German and my father for what ever reasons would watch the shows. Maybe, one day I'll ask.

Today, I guess the Koreans have had enough and have put more and more pressure on Japan to do something. Quite possibly the age thing ... or ???
 

suntory

後輩
Joined
29 Sep 2003
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
fact is the Japanese will NEVER pay compensation. It just wont happen....they havent even said sorry have they?? and after 60 years.
Besides the Koreans are victims but not powerfull victims like the Jews (if the jews were really victims that is...)
The US made Germany pay HUGE amounts in compensation to the Jews, infact Israel is built from the pockets of the Germans.
The US had the opportunity to make the Japanese pay also...but didnt....why? simply cause the Koreans werent Jews! and it obviously didnt suite them.
Anyhow to be honest I dont believe that the Holocaust actually happened to the extent that is protrayed. After all I have read and heard and seen I really dont think so.
As one said after the war and leading up to present day with all the Jew victims putting in for claims "who did Hitler kill??"
Anyhow there are people who would disagree with me, infact quite a few I guess, but thats ok I was the same I was bought up thinking just as you......the Germans were sick monsters, oh the poor jews.....but then I had an open mind and read read and read some more. if you have an open mind check out David Irvings site (search google).
But to be honest I dont think compensation is right. Every Human race has suffered some time in the past. Its important to learn and to show that you have learnt from past mistakes.
But then again im not a victim........
 

senseiman

先輩
Joined
24 Jun 2003
Messages
628
Reaction score
46
"some" people would disagree with you? I would say that the vast majority of people find the views and motives of anti semitic holocaust deniers like yourself to be morally repugnant and rightly so.
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
Japanese government did pay compensation... you guys don't know it?

To Korea - 108 billion yen + 72 billion yen in 1965 was paid.
Besides all Japanese assets were left in Korea, which amount was 6 billion US dollars at that time (estimated by GHQ).
Both Korean and Japanese government have agreed every past issue was settled off by it. Japanese government wanted to pay to individuals, but Korean government did not use the reparation money for that purpose.
(for details see: http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/index.html
and
http://www.zephyr.dti.ne.jp/~kj8899/nikkan-shori.html)

Later on, Korean government finaly did compensation for those "comfort women" from 1974. They finished paying in 1977, then abolished the law in 1982. Many Koreans also know this.
Therefore, what's happening now is --- Japanese government paid to Korean government, Korean government did pay for those "ex-comfort women" --- and now, some of them are still insisting that they have not received any money nor any apology while we paid, Japanese prime minister"s" (= several prime ministers!) apologized, but they are asking for more money.

By the way, many of those refer to Germany --- but Japan did not do the same holocaust crime so this logic does not fit to our case. Also, Germany did pay for Jewish individuals but has paid anything to other countries as a nation. This is because their logic is that "Germany was illogically occupied by Nazis ("so we are not responsible!" - although Nazis became leading party by election ) and Germany is a different country."
Their reparation has not finished yet while that of Japan is already over.
 

senseiman

先輩
Joined
24 Jun 2003
Messages
628
Reaction score
46
Actually the money paid to South Korea in 1965 was aid, not compensation for the war, though in return for it the South Korean government gave up all future claims against Japan for reparations. The reason it was aid rather than reparations was because the Japanese government didn't want to acknowledge that it had done anything wrong during its occupation. North Korea wasn't given anything, so the issue of reparations is still an open case with them.

The Japanese didn't commit full scale genocide like the Nazis did, but they still commited some heinous atrocities during the occupation of various Asian countries. I suppose the best argument you can make is that the French and Americans were equally brutal in their occupation of east asia after the war, so they should be apologizing and paying reparations too.
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
>money paid to South Korea in 1965 was aid
that's correct, and that's why prime minister Obuchi still had to tackle this issue (but he did, and settled - so it's over now.)

Also Japan has not paid to North Korea that's true - I understand this is because they are not a "legitimate government" in Korean peninsula.
By agreement between Japan and South Korea (in 1965 - SK was, and still is, in a war against North Korea), Japanese government has to regard South Korean government as the single legitimate government of Koreans. This was originally a request from South Korean government (I heard so), and they received all money - whatever it's called "aid" or reparation for the entire peninsula. So, I understand Japan do not have to pay any money to North Korean government.

By the way senseiman, did you know that Korean government had comfort women as well, during Korean war?
(see: http://japanese.joins.com/php/article.php?sv=jnews&src=soci&cont=soci0&aid=20020224192941400)
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
>>money paid to South Korea in 1965 was aid
>that's correct, and that's why prime minister Obuchi still had to
> tackle this issue (but he did, and settled - so it's over now.)

I mean it was originally over in 1965 as both country agreed everything in past was settled off by the agreement, but it seems Koreans forget. Recently American tank ran over a girl and they still blame U.S. troops - although they did apologize and built a monument etc. Why do those Koreans still request apology (and money?).
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
my apology for continuous posting, but my lost memory is back now:

Japan paid "aid" to South Korea and it was not called "reparation" - but in fact it was. True reason is, if it is a "reparation," South Korea also has to return all assets of Japanese (including both government and non-governemt) - which amount is actually much bigger than reparation amount Korean government originally insisted.

Now the same thing is going on between Japan and North Korea - instead of reparation, North Korea has been insisting for "economic aid" as seen in the announcement made last year.

Needless to say, no Japanese will agree if Japan just pay for economic assistance and still let them ask for compensation while they keep Japanese assets left there.
 
J

joho

Guest
Stephen

Agree, most people prefer things of the past to be left alone.

But, then again, how do you forget something like a member of your family being beheaded by a Japanese occupation soldier?

My grandfather was that unfortunate innocent victim.

visit url: www.singaporean.per.sg/arthur.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
joho,

you have not read all postings after stephen.
Japanese government has settled off those past issues with other countries.
If you don't know I can tell right now - 2.9 billion grant was given to Singapore in 1967.

an easy question:
There's a Japanese embassy in Singapore. So Singaporean embassy in Japan. If those issues had not been solved, WHY HAS YOUR GOVERNMENT AGREED TO REOPEN RELATIONSHIP WITH JAPAN AND EXCHANGE AMBASSADORS?

You are also a citizen of those countries which received compensation and settled all past issues between Japan. If you are not satisfied, just go blame your government or become a politician. It's not too late.
(Anyway, why are you in Japan Forum???
In order to advertise bad things about Japan?)

I don't deny there were war crimes in past, and all other countries also made such mistakes during wartime.
But Japanese government did settle those issues one by one, even at the time Japan was still a poor country.

About your grandfather I don't know if he was killed for really no reason, or doubted as a spy - or even still alive now - honestly I don't care. It's impossible to prove here. Instead just remain stating that some were real spies and some were not.

Anyway, for your information 920 Japanese soldiers were also executed after WWII due to doubts for abuse to prisoners/citizens,
and "crimes against human behavior"... which are in these days regarded as nothing but a mere revenge by winners.
But those soldiers were executed anyway, and those who returned to Japan and all Japanese citizens had to pay a lot of money as a compensation.
Japanese force did not order to kill innocent people (please show a proof if wrong), and such crimes were done by individuals so Japanese goverenment do not apologize, of course, but instead every Japanese including my parents did suffer by paying instead of those criminals. Money cannot replace people's lives, but remember there has been an agreement between Singapore and Japan, and this issue is over.
 
J

joho

Guest
ken

Why am I in Japan Forum ? - well, this is a free country , don't you believe in freedom of speech and human rights? - or
...are you a typical racist?

Btw, I did not setup this topic, the threader did :)

visit: www.singaporean.per.sg/arthur.html
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
hi joho - my favorite man:

Yeah, this is a free speech country --- my apology for silly question. It is a great point some other countries do not have. I am not familiar to situation of this field in Singapore, and would appreciate if you could tell a little about it as well.

Meanwhile, I still think you have not response to all points and keep your attitude unchanged. I am not a racist of any kind, and I have respect to Singapore as a great country with pride and power. Even I noted you and your postings, which have not replied to any logical questions, I still have this belief in Singapore.
But I really think you should complain to your government, not here or to Japanese or japanese government.
Or be a politician if not satisfied.

Besides, free speech does not justify ignoring an important fact Japanese did settle past issues with Singapore or all other countries (except North Korea which Japan do not regard as a nation).
 
J

joho

Guest
Ken

You must have noticed by now that I neither dispute nor support your 'other points'. I have no comments on them except to say this - most Asian countries, especially China, would forgive Japan's past ONLY if Japan issues a formal admission of guilt and apology for atrocities committed by Japanese Military government in WWII.

No amount of money can compensate for the hurt .

Singapore is a democratic country. You can post anything you wish in public discussion forums. There is even a Government feedback website where you could criticise the country's policies and regulations freely, and without fear of being arrested.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

bossel

Sempai
Joined
28 Sep 2003
Messages
1,162
Reaction score
44
Ken:

"This is because their logic is that "Germany was illogically occupied by Nazis ("so we are not responsible!" - although Nazis became leading party by election ) and Germany is a different country.""

I wonder, where you got that from. FR Germany always accepted responsibility for Nazi war crimes. The former GDR (Eastern Germany) did not (AFAIK). FRG compensated not only individuals but also countries: 100 billion Marks of war reparations, about 102 billion Marks for individual victims and about 755 billion Marks of industrial and enterprise compensation.

"Japanese force did not order to kill innocent people"
Well, ever heard of Unit 731? What about the Nankin/Nanjing massacre? Before you deny the latter, you may want to read this:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccba/cear/issues/fall99/text-only/yoshida.htm
 

bossel

Sempai
Joined
28 Sep 2003
Messages
1,162
Reaction score
44
suntory:

Would it really matter how many millions have been killed in the holocaust? Murder is wrong, to me it doesn't matter very much if you kill 1, 1000 or 6 million.
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
bossel :

that's what I heard when studies about history of German national flags - and I know Germany paid to individual Jewish victims, but the holocaust was not technically "war crime."

And for war crimes - correct this if I'm wrong - Germany has not finished payment to those nations won at WWII.
And the explanation of German government seems to be what I posted ---

However I am interested in your viewpoint so please let me ask a question:

- other than payment to Jewish individuals, did German government paid reparation to U.S., U.K., Russia or any other country?


About Unit 731 - originally it was a sanitation unit to prevent vermins in China, however all documents about it were confiscated by U.S. government and still has not revealed yet, as far as I know. Many of what we hear is rumors, propaganda etc.... as far as I know.

Manjing Massacre - as long as I studied, this is a pure propaganda which never existed, which was proved by a college professor Shudo Higashinakano, and after his thesis came out there are not even one claim from Chinese side which can turn this fact over.
No evidence was found so far although Chinese insist 300,000 people were slaughtered. One fact I can quickly give is that,
population of Nanjing was 200,000 people before Japanese force occupied (so not possible to kill 300,000) and 1 month later it increased to 250,000, and this survey was done by a third party.
(For some more details you can refer to:
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/index.html )
This website also welcomes questions if you have any.
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
>other than payment to Jewish individuals,
>did German government paid reparation to U.S., U.K., Russia >or any other country?

bossel - why do I ask such a questin is, that I am interested in recent lawsuits in U.S. In California there's a law that victims in wartime can sue companies of enemy countries for compensation, and Japan also have several cases.
However, as Japanese government has settled this issue off at Sanfrancisco treaty soon after the war, now we are free of further responsibility and can insist "year, we did pay you already."

see this news.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20031008a5.htm

I heard Germany has not done this yet, and there will be a lot of court cases going on so just curious.....
 

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
Sorry for continuous posting

bossel - I searched on the internet for Germany's postwar reparation. And found several sites explaining about it.

Please let me know if wrong - in short, Germany did pay for those individuals, but has not tied peace treaty with the Allies.
(one website explains this is because Germany was separate, and West Germany wanted to tackle this problem after re-united.)
Meanwhile Japanese governmend has finished tieing peace treaties at Sanfrancisco, and has already paid to governments of all countries involved in WWII (except North Korea, which Japan does not regard as a legitimate nation).
All of those countries have agreed to give up rights for compenstion by receiving agreed reparatio amount.

Considering this, now Japan has already given money to those governments and it is them, not Japan, who has to deliver the money to those individuals. We cannot ignore those governments and scatter money abroad, as it would be against all those peace treaty.

After studing it, I still think Germany has not finished what Japan has done to settle off issues in WWII... what do you think?
 

bossel

Sempai
Joined
28 Sep 2003
Messages
1,162
Reaction score
44
Ken:

I think, only revisionists doubt the fact that there actually was a massacre in Nanjing. The only question is the number of casualties, 10000, 100000 or 300000. This issue seems to be settled even for most Japanese historians. Look at my link above (I assumed you'd come up with this fabrication story, that's why i provided the link).

The German reparations are a bit more complicated because in the final settlement regarding reparations from 1952/3 the issue of forced labour was exempted, to be reviewed after German re-unification.

In general German war reparations were done with in 1953. Later, in bilateral global agreements with several countries settlements for victim compensation (partly except forced labour) were reached.

In 1999 a foundation was created which should compensate all who were forced to work in Germany. The lawsuits in the US have been settled by the creation of this foundation, quote: "all claims against German companies arising from their
involvement in National Socialism should be pursued through the foundation instead of the courts."

I'm not aware of still pending lawsuits anywhere.
 

bossel

Sempai
Joined
28 Sep 2003
Messages
1,162
Reaction score
44
Unit 731

The records were returned to Japan in the late 1950's & early '60's for what I know.

Anyway, I don't think the USA was able to capture all files that ever existed. Most were probably destroyed.
 
J

joho

Guest
Whatever the compensation and monetary settlements, there should be sincerity in those acts.

Germany showed geniune sorrow and have apologised profusely for war crimes committed by Hitlers men. Japan has yet to admit guilt and has not issued any sincere apology .

Money means nothing to hundreds of thousands of murdered civilians in WWII. Money cant bring the dead back to life again.

The irony of Japan's Military Government excuse for war - to liberate Asia from western control. Instead of liberating Asians, Japanese soldiers went on a murder campaign in which civilians in Singapore were indiscriminately picked and summarily executed. This was done just to instill fear and co-operation from the locals.

According to my grandmother, at the first day of their occupation in Singapore, Japanese soldiers rounded up about 5,000 innocent young men and executed them at Changi Beach !

My grandfather 's head was displayed at a bridge. He was a young community leader. I do not know him as I was'nt born that time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

KenUmedaira

Kouhai
Joined
18 Sep 2003
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
bossel:

>I think, only revisionists doubt the fact that there actually was a massacre in Nanjing.

I don't know or care about your definition of "revisionist," but this is not true any more after Mr. Higashinakano has proved it did not happen, and was a pure wartime propaganda. The guy reported this incident to west was hired by Chinese natinalist party - the record was found in Taiwan.
Also the proofs of slaughter were only testimonies. Skulls displayed at Nanjing museum in China has not shown when those people were killed - fyi the place had so many wars during Chinese history. What made you believe this, by the way?

About German reparation - is there any website explaining the reparation in 1953?

> In 1999 a foundation was created which should compensate
Year, I read it somewhere but don't know if compensation has been already done - what I read was that the offered price was way too low compared with requested amount. If you know further please let me know?
Also, one question - why is it a foundation, not a government? any reason?

- Unit 731
I have not read that. Then, what's written in the record?

Hi joho:
The thing is, Japan did apologize for several times. I don't know what you mean by "sincerity" - but I don't think there are no better sincerity than making Japanese aplogize for several times, tie peace treaty and reparation. Japan did that all.
Besides, treaty and reparation was done between two countries, and the other part did admit all issues in past is over.
And Japan is not eager to invade other countries, of course.

Oh, forgot to say this - Japan did liberate asian countries from western control. Some are thankful (ex. Indonesia, Burma, India) - some are not. I don't care - Japan is not asking them to thank us, of course. Japan did it to protect Japan. But there were soldiers who believed in the ideal and I respect it.

>According to my grandmother
how could she tell those 5,000 people were innocent?
 
J

joho

Guest
Ken -

"How could you tell 5000 people were innocent. ..." This question reminded me of post-war war crime hearings, most Japanese Commanders used that same line....they justified the killings by saying criminals were executed not innocent civilians. They did that inspite of evidences against them from live witnesses ...and admissions from fellow japanese soldiers.

I am tellling you from facts related to us by our trusted ancestors and you are asking this unbelievably evasive question? You are telling me my grandmother lied? Her village friends and school friends were in the first batch slaugthered by Japanese troops.

Since you are asking for it let me give you references to read up and digest....

http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/theo1/projects/2001_chen/forgotten_holocaust.htm

http://www.marshallnet.com/~manor/ww2/atrocity.html

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

Btw, I didnt hear a word of sorry or apology from you - for my grandfather's murder by Japanese soldier.

visit: www.singaporean.per.sg/arthur/html
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Top Bottom