Saba said:Lets not hate anyone. Lets try our very best in the future to be kind and not kill or destroy each other so brutally. We are a billion people roll into one. If we hurt someone or a nation everyone will be hurting terribly and the vicious circle will go on forever. Let us not repeat this kind of history. We only have one world. Do we really want to destroy it?
Elizabeth van Kampen said:Hello Saba from Kuala Lumpur,
I fully agree with you. Where ever we come from, we can all make friends in other countries. I allow myself to dislike certain governments from certain countries, but I can make friends with the peoples of those countries.
As I found out for myself; there are good people all over our beautiful world.
find more in :https://jref.com/showthread.php?t=10892Maciamo said:The problem is that Japan hasn't properly apologizes to China yet, and that Japanese prime ministers continue to visit the Yasukuni Shrine, dedicated to class A war criminals, annually. Another issue is that Japanese history books used in schools do not mention atrocities committed in WWII (or skip WWII altogether). This is in sharp contrast to the situation in Germany, where children learn exactly (and maybe with greater emphasis than in other European countries) the horrors committed by the Nazi.
......
Japan, on its side, has racist politicians like Shintaro Ishihara who claim the Nanjing massacre never happened and say most Chinese living in Japan are criminals and should be expelled.
So what can be done ?
It seems obvious that the behaviour of ordinary people isn't going to change until the governments improve their relationship first. IMO, Japan should make the first step, ...because it is responsible in the first place.
What Japan should do is :
1) Change history books used in schools and explain clearly and neutrally what happened during WWII, including the Nanjing massacre.
2) Prohibit politicians from making racist comments or negate actual facts (about WWII)
3) Prohibit politicians from going to Yasukuni Jinja, or move war criminals somewhere else
4) Avoid sanctioning or over-taxing Chinese products
5) Make it easier for Chinese people born in Japan to be naturalized, (and possibly also for Chinese tourists to visit Japan).
......
gaijinalways said:Well, I will say one thing, I do find some of RussianGuy's comments alarming. I can understand why he is trying to comment on opinions of Japan in his comparison of US actions both present and past with Japan's actions. Certainly victors do like to paint a 'memory' of history that shows them in a positive light, but also so do losers when they get a chance to do so. The Chinese didn't manage to drive the Japanese out, they only managed to outwait the Japanese until their military's defeat.
All countries try to influence other opinions of themselves, some do it in a more obvious way. The US uses militaristic and economic feints and thrusts to try and cow and influence other countries' foreign policies. The Russians (as the USSR) by comparison had a similar approach until they splintered and eventually became the current Russia. Of course, some would argue Russia's current approach to dealing with ex-satelite countries, especially Ukraine, is not that different than before, just using a slightly different stick.
Yes the Iraq war and subsequent occupation is a mess, and Bush is/was a bit mad for thinking that a drive to oust Hussein was not going to destabalize that country and the surrounding area.
As to Israel, that was established with the help of the British (not the US), though of course the US has long aided the Israeli cause, both publically and covertly.
So in my opinion, if the US actions are wrong, how can the Japanese actions be right? Or of course, you feel everyone should apolgize (which would be nice, but it's not terribly realistic) for their aggressive actions in bringing any war outside their borders?
As you have seen mentioned in the thread, keep the focus on why people may dislike Japan, if you want threads on the Iraq war or on the use of US military might, start new threads to encompass them. As to the US helping the world, yes, they didn't do it all out of pure heartedness, but do you think the Japanese and Germany would have ended the war as victors in such a manner? I sincerely doubt it, and then we might have seen what continued occupation looked like first hand throughout Europe and parts of Asia (unfortunately, it might have mirrored the continueing mess in Africa, though colonization of the continent is only part of the story of the 'dark' continent's continual struggle to develop).
4321go said:There is no doubt you are knowledgeable .
Elizabeth van Kampen said:...our beautiful world.
Yes Indeed!gs001 said:Japan is a nation of extreme unique.
When they launched war, they became brutal to the utmost,
When they surrendered, they immediately became tame to
the utmost to the American. people who didn't suffer from their invasion
or live far from them or be born after WWII or ignorant
about their behavior in WWII will blame to China like that
"look, how docile Japanese are, why are you hostile to Japan"?
Here is the answer: only their closest neighbor can see what
hide behind their gentle mask. in deep heart, Japanese never
believe they have done anything wrong during WWII.
personally I don't care about whether they apologize or not,
but we must keep an eye on them and prevent them from being
brutal again.
If our neighbor is Germany, we don't need to worry about that.
From what I can gather the shrine is also for the normal soldiers that died in WWII and only part of the shrine is deicated to war criminals.4321go said:translated by google:
1 in the small-headed by the Prime Minister many senior officials to visit the Yasukuni Shrine that China history
And the Chinese Government don't do this? Pot, Kettle and black come into mind here2 revised textbooks, deny or play down the crimes of World War II
Might be because China refuses to recognise Taiwan as an independent nation and using its power to intimatidate the Island. Which it has been doing since the Nationlists fled there to escape persecution from Maos forces3 foster Taiwan independence forces, political intervention Taiwan to counter mainland China
Not illegal for any country to accept the Dalai to visit. Such a pity he can't visit his own country. After all his own country was annexed illegally by China11 permit Dalai's visit to Japan
Something the US and the west have been doing for years, not just Japan , and with good reason. Mao wasn't a paragon of virtue.16 spread "China threat theory" behind, demonizing China's vanguard.
Oh, and the Chinese don't do this at all do they. Once more Pot, Kettle, Black37 Japanese domestic creatures of Chinese people insult
Cultural revolution comes to mind.42 arrest, killing protecting people
nurizeko said:China definately isnt any sort of angel for its human rights record.
Mycernius said:From what I can gather the shrine is also for the normal soldiers that died in WWII and only part of the shrine is deicated to war criminals.
And the Chinese Government don't do this? Pot, Kettle and black come into mind here
Might be because China refuses to recognise Taiwan as an independent nation and using its power to intimatidate the Island. Which it has been doing since the Nationlists fled there to escape persecution from Maos forces
Not illegal for any country to accept the Dalai to visit. Such a pity he can't visit his own country. After all his own country was annexed illegally by China
Something the US and the west have been doing for years, not just Japan , and with good reason. Mao wasn't a paragon of virtue.
Oh, and the Chinese don't do this at all do they. Once more Pot, Kettle, Black
Cultural revolution comes to mind.
You are only 20 ,you still need to know more of it .nurizeko said:the real point is if asia was in a mind to forgive, Japan could apologise, they dont because they know the whole WW2 issue in asia is just the horrible disfigured face of sincerity and actual victimhood ripped from the body of the issue and sewn over the disgusting putrid face of political positioning.
Anyone not in asia and immediately involved with the issue, can see plainly from this vantage point that the screaming and clawing for Japans remorse and guilt and apologies isnt because they feel slighted....most people alive in WW2 are dead, with no immediate relatives, so theres no excuse for the level of contempt and hatred shown by some, the issue has simply been hijacked by the politicians and leaders as a way to get one political leg over Japan, want to get elected or popular support?....stir anti-japanese racist sentiments and bingo, you got a crowd of racist hateful people to support your bid for power/current leadership.
Basically Asia has got problems....Japan....China, they may have advanced economies, south korea might be a gamers paradise, Japan might spew out high technology, and China might be an industrial power-house, but the society hasnt grown up with the technology, Asia is still too highly nationalistic, too self-centred, too caught up in themselves, still living in a past of hating each other.
If my time in Japan is anything, most japanese just wanna live their lives in peace, and i assume the same for most other Asians, sadly a minority of hateful howlers and crooked politicians means asia cant get along as well as it could.
You can read it by google.I will translate it when I have time .ﾂ催昶?吮??窶愿ｺﾃｨﾂ税淡ﾂ湘｣窶拿ﾂ戰窶｢ﾃｻ窶拿ﾅ陳ｾﾋ彗ﾂ，ﾂ青･窶ｺﾃ淌｣S窶敕ｭ歷ﾅｽj窶敖ｽ窶｢ﾅ禿ｦﾅ｡窶督ｾﾂ，ﾅｽﾂｧﾅ?ﾅｽﾅ?ﾃｹ窶ｺ窶卍重ﾂ新ﾃｦﾅ｡窶督ｾ窶弯窶｢ﾂ｢窶｢s窶挧窶廬ﾂ真窶板敖。窶吮??ﾅ｡ﾂ?窶督｢ﾋ愿停?廬窶戮窶督ｱﾂ就ﾂ青･窶牢窶禿岩?卍ｴ窶ｰz窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ，窶ｺ窶ｰﾅ陳ｻ窶愬塚慊ｱﾋ?ｪﾃｩ窶懌?ｰﾂｻﾂ，ﾃｦﾂｨ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ青ｬﾋ?療ｩ窶愬地內窶廬ﾋ?ｪ窶｢窶昶?｢ﾂｪﾅｽﾂｧ窶｢sﾂ青･ﾅｸﾃ?窶板｣窶ｰ窶氾ｩ窶愬地窶抃ﾅ?Oﾂ，ﾅ渡ﾅｽﾂｧ窶ｰﾃｰﾂ焦凪?愿ｺ窶怒窶ｺ窶敕ｩ窶愬地內窶廬ﾅ｡ﾂ?窶ｰﾃ?蛋ﾂ青ｬ窶卍ｷﾅ?ﾃｺ窶廬ﾋ?絶?ｹﾂｺﾂ。
google traslate it :
have been repeatedly proven history, and both will be re-prove incontrovertible truth. China's future task is complete surpassed Japan to achieve integration in East Asia for Japan to become part of the system rather than divorced from the system, thereby lifting the Japanese system of a long-term threat to the national.
nurizeko said:Thats the same argument i take with animal terrorists, its a bit rich preaching lovey fluffy love with all animals when the very nature of nature is life and death.
Though you make an interesting point, i agree, war is a way for human civilization to evolve, thats not the real point, the real point is if asia was in a mind to forgive, Japan could apologise, they dont because they know the whole WW2 issue in asia is just the horrible disfigured face of sincerity and actual victimhood ripped from the body of the issue and sewn over the disgusting putrid face of political positioning.
Anyone not in asia and immediately involved with the issue, can see plainly from this vantage point that the screaming and clawing for Japans remorse and guilt and apologies isnt because they feel slighted....most people alive in WW2 are dead, with no immediate relatives, so theres no excuse for the level of contempt and hatred shown by some, the issue has simply been hijacked by the politicians and leaders as a way to get one political leg over Japan, want to get elected or popular support?....stir anti-japanese racist sentiments and bingo, you got a crowd of racist hateful people to support your bid for power/current leadership.
Basically Asia has got problems....Japan....China, they may have advanced economies, south korea might be a gamers paradise, Japan might spew out high technology, and China might be an industrial power-house, but the society hasnt grown up with the technology, Asia is still too highly nationalistic, too self-centred, too caught up in themselves, still living in a past of hating each other.
If my time in Japan is anything, most japanese just wanna live their lives in peace, and i assume the same for most other Asians, sadly a minority of hateful howlers and crooked politicians means asia cant get along as well as it could.
Your logic is so twisted. Somehow you find a way to beautify and justify Japanese atrocities and agrression. That's exactly the reason Asian people still hate Japan because there are Japanese think the way you think. (not just a small minorities) According to your logic, you should agree that atomic bombs dropped on hiroshima and nakasaki were THINGS OF BEAUTYsince those two bombs make Japan evolved in a more peaceful way and got rid of unfit human as well. Agree? The Social Darwinism was one major reasons that drove Nazi and Japan did so many disgusting atrocities in WWII. I do not think you have learned the lesson.godppgo said:I think western power (including Japan) aggression on the rest of Asian countries were inevitable. Many Asian people as a whole actually benefited from western (include Japan) aggression. Let me elaborate my point..When people think of war, their immediate reaction is to feel sorry for the victims of war. Yes, we should feel sorry for them. We should feel sorry for them not because they died of meaninglessly death. We feel sorry for them because they were unlucky enough to be the ones to having to sacrifice their lives in the process of human evolution: Human evolution in the form of war.
Human evolution can be interpreted many ways depending on ones value. For my argument here, I define human evolution as the process for human to obtain a better quality of life.
When people ask why did Japan or western powers did those horrible things to Asians, they rarely go deeper than the surface reasons such as: fighting for natural resources, ambitious leaders, political interest...etc. If one dig deeper into what caused such aggressive confrontation between two nations, the reason is very simple. The two countries have evolved differently and one is ahead of another in terms of better quality of life (eg, better technologies, better standard of livingﾂ…etc).
As all matter on Earth do, we all tend to reach the state of equilibrium. The two countries start to interact and bits by bits they would want to assimilate into each other because people naturally want to achieve a better quality of living, thus the term reaching the state of equilibrium. Sadly, the process of reaching equilibrium is sometimes in the form of war. This is also the point where most people will focus on war dead and lost focus of the big picture of what's really going on.
As for HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan being more advance, you have to remember that there was a cold war and China was being contained. As for now, Chinese economy has been liberated and they are moving up very fast. I have been to Tokyo and Shanghai before. In terms of landscape and skyline, I can tell you that Tokyo has already fallen behind Shanghai. I am from Taiwan myself. Trust me your argument won't fly even in Taiwan. ( the only Asian nation has quite a few people who are friendly to Japan.) Hey, maybe Darwinism is not going to work in Japan's favor in the next 50 years since China is regaining its old status - being the leader of Asia. Do you suggest that it's right thing for China to eradict Japanese race once and for all? since it fits Darwin's law too. Agree?Let me give some examples. HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan, what do those places have in common and why are there such a big difference between these regions and the rest of China? Why do Asians in these areas have much higher quality of living than the rest of China? The answer is simple: Direct interaction with a more advanced system. To put it boldly, they have all been colonized. Were there killings and destruction when those regions first interacted with the more advanced nations? Yes there were plenty. However, that's the sort of fluctuations one expects to happen when two different systems start to interact. In the long run, the system will reach equilibrium (equal standard of living) and fluctuations will cease to exist.
Is war inevitable? I don't think so. As human beings, we have yet to evolve to the point where human evolution can be done completely without war. Acknowledging past actions will be one step in the process of moving human race up another level. I don't agree with those who think apologizing will do good to the victims. Victims will have nothing to gain from aggressors' apology other than their mere self-satisfaction to make themselves feel better. Acknowledging past actions will only be beneficial to the aggressors for that they have reached a new level of human social value while victims are lagging behind with hate and remorse. A word of advice to the victimized nations: Move on with your life. We live in a fast changing world and no one's gonna stop to pity your pathetic past. It's a competitive world out there. Upgrade yourself is the only way to survive according Darwin's law of natural selection.
taiwan said:Your logic is so twisted. Somehow you find a way to beautify and justify Japanese atrocities and agrression. That's exactly the reason Asian people still hate Japan because there are Japanese think the way you think. (not just a small minorities) According to your logic, you should agree that atomic bombs dropped on hiroshima and nakasaki were THINGS OF BEAUTYsince those two bombs make Japan evolved in a more peaceful way and got rid of unfit human as well. Agree? The Social Darwinism was one major reasons that drove Nazi and Japan did so many disgusting atrocities in WWII. I do not think you have learned the lesson.
taiwan said:As for HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan being more advance, you have to remember that there was a cold war and China was being contained. As for now, Chinese economy has been liberated and they are moving up very fast. I have been to Tokyo and Shanghai before. In terms of landscape and skyline, I can tell you that Tokyo has already fallen behind Shanghai. I am from Taiwan myself. Trust me your argument won't fly even in Taiwan. ( the only Asian nation has quite a few people who are friendly to Japan.) Hey, maybe Darwinism is not going to work in Japan's favor in the next 50 years since China is regaining its old status - being the leader of Asia. Do you suggest that it's right thing for China to eradict Japanese race once and for all? since it fits Darwin's law too. Agree?
godppgo said:Yes I do agree atomic bombs were necessary to elevate Japan's social value in terms of realizing their role as the aggressor in the war. Social Darwinism has been occuring since the beginning of human age. It takes place in many forms and Japanese/German aggression during WWII were examples of accelerated Social Darwinism. An accelerated cultural clash is made possible when two nations or culture have a big gap in their standard of living or people quality. During an accelerated cultural clash, confrontations that usually will take a long time to occur are packed into an extremely short time frame that usually results in large scale human atrocities.
There's nothing to shun away from when it comes to discussing how we as human have evolved because they are simply historic events that have occured. Believe it or not, the fact that me and you are using English in our discussion is an example of Social Darwinism
So is the number of highrise buildings in a country the only measurement you take for assessing a nation's well being? That is an extremely superficial way of judging a nation's well being. Go to the countrysides of China and see the real China. Ask those 100million Chinese farmers who are getting by with $1/day wage what do those fancy highrise in Shanghai mean to them.
To me, what makes a country great is it's people quality. I don't want to have to worry about getting robbed when I walk alone during the night. I don't want to have to worry about buying meat that were manufactured from underground meat processing plant. I don't want to live in an environemnt where everyone's mind is filled with money-making scam and trying to rip you off.
If you really want to compare China to Japan, I have to say China is lagging Japan in terms of people quality for at least a century. China has always portrayed itself as the victim and victim simply won't evolve.
I agree with you. There's no direct relationship between explaining historic events and the afterwards recognizing of the victims and the subsequent actions taking place with regard to the victims. They are in in fact, two sepearte topics and subjects.
You pointed out a very good point. Social values growth have not catched up with the economical and technological growths in most Asian countries. This is largely due to the fact that many Asians(especially Chinese) somehow refuse to adopt modern western thinking such as a modern justice system and democracy. As to why do Asian people are reluctant to adopt key modern ideologies which has proven crucial and essential to the successful building of a modern society? The answer is complicated. Japan is the most modern country in Asia and it is by no means a perfectly functioning country. A good example is Japan's dealing with other Asian nations with regard to WWII issues.
4321go said:Wow~ Haven't you read my post??
No matter how worse the Japan did in the past~ we can forgive it .In fact ,we already forgive it ~China abnegate the reparations that Japan should pay after the war! Chinese people is virtuous,they didn't want to see the Japanese People suffer more pain after the war,and Japan and China establish diplomatic relations in 1970's.
4321go said:Give a example:
A prisoner did many bad things,however ,it being punished and sent to the prison.Then we shall forgive him.
But ,the prisoner think what he has done is right~ and prepare to do it again.
In this case ,do you still feel good ?
Look at what Japan doing now.....
https://jref.com/forum/showpost.php... Lead by example, make history, be yourself.
Could you point me to some evolutionary developments which occurred due to WWII?godppgo said:Human evolution in the form of war.
OK, you use your own definition of evolution, but how valid is this definition? What supports your stance?I define human evolution as the process for human to obtain a better quality of life.
That's not simple, that's oversimplified. You have wars which are started by a technologically advanced society, by a technologically inferior society or by an equal society.If one dig deeper into what caused such aggressive confrontation between two nations, the reason is very simple. The two countries have evolved differently and one is ahead of another in terms of better quality of life (eg, better technologies, better standard of livingﾂ…etc).
& again too simple. How much higher is the quality of living in North Korea?HK, Macao, Korea, and Taiwan, what do those places have in common and why are there such a big difference between these regions and the rest of China? Why do Asians in these areas have much higher quality of living than the rest of China? The answer is simple: Direct interaction with a more advanced system.
There is virtually no human evolution left. I can't see how human beings should undergo any remarkable evolutionary change. Mutations still occur, but without selective pressure that doesn't mean much.As human beings, we have yet to evolve to the point where human evolution can be done completely without war.
No, it isn't. Adapting to changing circumstances is. You don't necessarily need to upgrade, sometimes it's better to downgrade.Upgrade yourself is the only way to survive according Darwin's law of natural selection.
Nope. Social Darwinism (which should probably better be called Social Lamarckism) is not a valid scientific theory. It never was.godppgo said:Social Darwinism has been occuring since the beginning of human age.
How great was the gap between Germany & Poland? Germany & the Netherlands? Germany & Denmark? ...An accelerated cultural clash is made possible when two nations or culture have a big gap in their standard of living or people quality.
godppgo said:Yes I do agree atomic bombs were necessary to elevate Japan's social value in terms of realizing their role as the aggressor in the war. Social Darwinism has been occuring since the beginning of human age. It takes place in many forms and Japanese/German aggression during WWII were examples of accelerated Social Darwinism. An accelerated cultural clash is made possible when two nations or culture have a big gap in their standard of living or people quality. During an accelerated cultural clash, confrontations that usually will take a long time to occur are packed into an extremely short time frame that usually results in large scale human atrocities. There's nothing to shun away from when it comes to discussing how we as human have evolved because they are simply historic events that have occured. Believe it or not, the fact that me and you are using English in our discussion is an example of Social Darwinism..
[/QUOTE]So is the number of highrise buildings in a country the only measurement you take for assessing a nation's well being? That is an extremely superficial way of judging a nation's well being. Go to the countrysides of China and see the real China. Ask those 100million Chinese farmers who are getting by with $1/day wage what do those fancy highrise in Shanghai mean to them.
To me, what makes a country great is it's people quality. I don't want to have to worry about getting robbed when I walk alone during the night. I don't want to have to worry about buying meat that were manufactured from underground meat processing plant. I don't want to live in an environemnt where everyone's mind is filled with money-making scam and trying to rip you off. If you really want to compare China to Japan, I have to say China is lagging Japan in terms of people quality for at least a century. China has always portrayed itself as the victim and victim simply won't evolve.