Why do some long-term foreigners complain about not being treated equal?

[edogaijin]

Imagine for a second if the average Tokyo-ite treated you immersed foreigners as they treat the average Japanese. You'll never be asked again if you can use chopsticks or how many seasons exist in "America". It's assumed you like natto and sleep in a futon. Would you really want to live in a Japan where you were treated just like everyone else? Where you were just automatically expected to work until 2330 because the bucho is still making the rounds, and where most people just ignore you completely like they do everyone else?

Personally, I wouldn't. I enjoy being a henna gaijin too much. It's absolutely hysterical to pretend to speak no Japanese and see what a new person really thinks of you. It's a useful thing to be able to pull out the "gaijin smash" when you really need it. We get a lot of special treatment in Japan for being foreigners (granted not as much as the old days..) Would anyone really want to give that up just to "assimilate" in to Japan?

Hell it isn't our culture. We aren't Japanese, and we never will be. I see no real reason why so many people here are so riled up about the 'racial inequality' or whatever other nonsense Debito and his cooky followers are cooking up these days.

My 3 yen, as a stranger in a stranger land.

 

[Haruspex]

You must realise that your position is highly subjective, as will any answer be that it is likely to elicit. I mean, perhaps it might seem overly simplified, but some people want to be integrated into their milieu and some don't - there's no correct and incorrect here, just preference.

What seems evident to me, though, is that many, or perhaps most, people will show signs of mental wear if they're forced into the role of the outcast for prolonged periods of time.

 

[Hezam]

Would you really want to live in a Japan where you were treated just like everyone else?

Yes, i would love to.

Where you were just automatically expected to work until 2330 because the bucho is still making the rounds,

Yes, i wish, this is one thing the entire Arab world admire in Japanese, they work hard to achiev perfection and better future, Seriously i have no dam idea why you don't like working hard ! .... Lazy ? sigh..

and where most people just ignore you completely like they do everyone else?

ignore during work or when they pass by you ?

Personally, I wouldn't. I enjoy being a henna gaijin too much. It's absolutely hysterical to pretend to speak no Japanese and see what a new person really thinks of you. It's a useful thing to be able to pull out the "gaijin smash" when you really need it. We get a lot of special treatment in Japan for being foreigners (granted not as much as the old days..) Would anyone really want to give that up just to "assimilate" in to Japan?
Hell it isn't our culture. We aren't Japanese, and we never will be. I see no real reason why so many people here are so riled up about the 'racial inequality' or whatever other nonsense Debito and his cooky followers are cooking up these days.
My 3 yen, as a stranger in a stranger land.

Man what ...! did you expect Japanese to worship you ? Go home man.
Living in Japan is a dream to millions of people, People KNOW that japan is not 100% perfect but it's million times better than most of world nations including the US.

i stop here before i lose controll on my keyboard...

 

[edogaijin]

Sorry to say that anyone expecting to be treated "as a Japanese" while living in Japan is in for a very rude awakening upon actually living here. That's just not how society works here.
Re: Working hard... Well, you can work 16 hours a day and get 8 hours of work done. Or you can work 9-10 hours a day and get 9-10 hours of work done. Work hours !== productivity... Moving along.
Who said that I or anyone else expects Japanese to worship foreigners? If anything the Japanese are guilty of often treating white foreigners far too well (better than they treat many Japanese employees or friends). It's the whole "charisma man" effect. My initial message is directed at embittered long-term foreign residents in Japan. Namely the guys at Shibuya HUB that are constantly complaining about how unfair or inequal their life in Japan is.
You know who you are, gents.

What seems evident to me, though, is that many, or perhaps most, people will show signs of mental wear if they're forced into the role of the outcast for prolonged periods of time.

Do you live in Japan? Speak Japanese? Asking because I am genuinely curious. My friend has lived in Japan for 19 years and went to high school here. Because he was born to Japanese overseas and despite being 100% ethnically Japanese, he is called a gaijin.

Honestly it's little more than a pipe-dream to believe that as a foreigner you'll never stop being an outsider in Japan. Granted, that's not a license to be a disrespectful person or to not be studying the language. If anything it's 100% the opposite, as foreigners we're guests of Japan. Demanding equality is just pretentious silliness.

 

[Haruspex]

Do you live in Japan? Speak Japanese? Asking because I am genuinely curious. My friend has lived in Japan for 19 years and went to high school here. Because he was born to Japanese overseas and despite being 100% ethnically Japanese, he is called a gaijin.

Honestly it's little more than a pipe-dream to believe that as a foreigner you'll never stop being an outsider in Japan. Granted, that's not a license to be a disrespectful person or to not be studying the language. If anything it's 100% the opposite, as foreigners we're guests of Japan. Demanding equality is just pretentious silliness.

I don't live in Japan, but I understand enough of the language to be able to access popular entertainment media. How does this pertain to my general observation about the human psyche, though?

Are we discussing whether foreigners are treated as outsiders in Japan, or whether they ought to be? The first relates to a factual observation, but the second is an ethical issue.

Japanese people belong to the same species of animal (homo sapiens sapiens) as all the rest of us. Black, white, asian, whatever crudely defined category we may conjure up, we can all interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Because we belong to the same species, we have identical basic needs. Any ethnic distinction is based on culture, and culture is nebulous and ever-changing. Basing an absolute claim, such as the one you put forth, on something so mercurial is just dicey practice.

Some of the Norsemen used to raid shores, burn churches, kill monks and rape nuns. Now their descendants are some of the most liberal and socially-conscious people on our planet. So how does that work out?

There are numerous countries in the world where, as a guest, you will be treated the same as, or very similar to, nationals. Are countries like that just plain silly? I studied for several years in the UK and I was treated no differently from anybody else... should they have like stitched a Hungarian flag to all of my clothes, lest they inexplicably be rendered silly and pretentious?

I am not claiming that Japan is under an obligation to treat foreigners as the equals of nationals, but to say that such an act of goodwill would be silly is, well... silly?

Nah man, your point is poorly argued. :09: x 00, insert coin please!

 

[edogaijin]

You don't live in Japan, which is why you can say that. The simple reality is that foreigners are not and likely never will be treated "as equals" in Japan. It's an ethnically homogeneous island country.

If you come to Japan expecting to be treated "just the same as everyone else" you are in for a RUDE awakening.

 

[Haruspex]

You don't live in Japan, which is why you can say that. The simple reality is that foreigners are not and likely never will be treated "as equals" in Japan. It's an ethnically homogeneous island country.

If you come to Japan expecting to be treated "just the same as everyone else" you are in for a RUDE awakening.

You addressed none of the issues I brought up, choosing to repeat what you wrote in your preceding post. If that's your approach to debating, I recommend you skip two steps down to the Chit Chat & Miscellaneous sub-forum where your inability to formulate arguments might go unnoticed.

 

[edogaijin]

You addressed none of the issues I brought up, choosing to repeat what you wrote in your preceding post. If that's your approach to debating, I recommend you skip two steps down to the Chit Chat & Miscellaneous sub-forum where your inability to formulate arguments might go unnoticed.

I'm saying that you have no real living experience in Japan, so you're basing what you know about life here off second-hand accounts and anime viewing. The real life here isn't so rosy, once you live here you'll realize that it's a different pace of life.

 

[Haruspex]

I'm saying that you have no real living experience in Japan, so you're basing what you know about life here off second-hand accounts and anime viewing. The real life here isn't so rosy, once you live here you'll realize that it's a different pace of life.

I'm basing what on what? I never made any claims that Japan is a rosy place or the opposite. All I said was that the fact that Japan is a certain way does not mean that it must remain so, or that it will, absolutely and forever, remain so. Perhaps my wording is to blame, but I believe that you read too much into what I said. As for second-hand accounts... aren't they mostly the opposite of rosy? I mean, most foreigners that frequent online forums or write blogs, etc., have at least a couple of grievances about Japan, whether minor or major. As for relying on anime. Hmm, I don't exactly believe that Japanese people fight angelic beings of alien geometry, piloting humongous organic robots by inserting themselves into their spinal columns through the use of phallic cockpit-bullets. Not on a daily basis, in any case.

 

[Half-n-Half]

You'll never be asked again if you can use chopsticks or how many seasons exist in "America".

To be honest, I've never been asked those. Pretty much 99% of the people I interact with don't seem to give two shits I'm a foreigner. That's just what I've encountered, anyway. I'm sure it helps to speak the language fluently.

[MENTION=33254]Derfel[/MENTION] seriously dude. We both leave the forum for an extended period of time and happen to come back around the same time. Our join dates are very close, and so is our age. Are you like, my European mirror image?

 

[Haruspex]

To be honest, I've never been asked those. Pretty much 99% of the people I interact with don't seem to give two shits I'm a foreigner. That's just what I've encountered, anyway. I'm sure it helps to speak the language fluently.

@Derfel seriously dude. We both leave the forum for an extended period of time and happen to come back around the same time. Our join dates are very close, and so is our age. Are you like, my European mirror image?

Hey man, nice to see you're back. Sorry I didn't reply sooner, my hard drive died on me and I was trying to use the forums on my PS Vita. Given enough time I'm sure I could have managed to write a reply, but it would have come at the price of my mental health. Yeah, it's quite uncanny actually. I hope it seems really ominous to other people, that would make it kinda cool. Anyway, I'd welcome you back, but that would seem odd coming from a person who just came back himself.

 

[Hezam]

I'd welcome you back, but that would seem odd coming from a person who just came back himself.

Ok then, Welcome back both of you.

 

[13ryu]

mixed people who were born and grew up in japan are also called gaijin, right??

 

[Mike Cash]

mixed people who were born and grew up in japan are also called gaijin, right??

They're called "haafu" (half).

 

[13ryu]

i mean they are treated like gaijin

 

[Mike Cash]

i mean they are treated like gaijin

Try saying what you mean instead of something entirely different, then. It will facilitate communication.

 

[nahadef]

i mean they are treated like gaijin

Hi new member, welcome to the forum! We are sometimes friendly and answer questions rather than just critique the way they were asked.

If you are born and raised in Japan, and speak native level Japanese, you won't be treated like a foreigner, since your behaviour will be in line with everyone else's. You won't exactly be considered Japanese, though.

One thing to consider, in your question, and this topic, is that Japan has changed a lot over the past few decades and people are getting a better relationship with foreigners. Not being equal, but more understood and accepted.

 

[caster55]

because they do not still understand it yet?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Man. A 40 minute video. What exactly is the point you want to make?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I agree with edogaijin in parts. I don't think he is totally off base.

There are perks to being a western foreigner, especially a White one. We are treated differently and sometimes its nice and sometimes its not. Even the nice things can get old, especially if it comes with a fuss and/or repetition attached, like you use chopsticks so well or your Japanese is excellent. Original compliments are few and far between, which smacks of being seen not for who you are, but what you are.

Derfel brings up great points, especially the point about everyone being different. Some people really do want to fit in.

But something I think needs said is that Japanese are an exclusionary people. Its not just foreigners that get excluded. They shut their own out too. Its a horrible part about this country that such behavior is so common, but it is. Japan is a cold place where you might find a little warmth among Japanese family and a few Japanese friends, or else you keep from freezing by being with gaijin.

I believe half-n-half travels in different circles than most people labeled gaijin in Japan.

And I have said this before, but I don't want to be treated special. Nor do I want to be treated as a Japanese. I want to be treated as a human being in a free country, and I want that extended to the Japanese themselves. I see a slew of problems with the way Japanese treat each other as well as their treatment/concept of what and who is foreign. I would like to see it make some radical changes.

It's assumed you like natto and sleep in a futon. Would you really want to live in a Japan where you were treated just like everyone else?

As things stand now, hell no. Being the gaijin is much better, for me anyway. I think that is the sort of answer edogaijin is looking for, and that is my opinion on the matter.

But I would like to live in a Japan where far less is assumed about me in any case. Note the first three letters of the word "assume." It might be coincidence, but it sure fits that word! Half of my students sleep in a bed btw, and plenty of them dislike natto.

 

[caster55]

I agree with edogaijin in parts. I don't think he is totally off base.

There are perks to being a western foreigner, especially a White one. We are treated differently and sometimes its nice and sometimes its not. Even the nice things can get old, especially if it comes with a fuss and/or repetition attached, like you use chopsticks so well or your Japanese is excellent. Original compliments are few and far between, which smacks of being seen not for who you are, but what you are.

Derfel brings up great points, especially the point about everyone being different. Some people really do want to fit in.

But something I think needs said is that Japanese are an exclusionary people. Its not just foreigners that get excluded. They shut their own out too. Its a horrible part about this country that such behavior is so common, but it is. Japan is a cold place where you might find a little warmth among Japanese family and a few Japanese friends, or else you keep from freezing by being with gaijin.

I believe half-n-half travels in different circles than most people labeled gaijin in Japan.

And I have said this before, but I don't want to be treated special. Nor do I want to be treated as a Japanese. I want to be treated as a human being in a free country, and I want that extended to the Japanese themselves. I see a slew of problems with the way Japanese treat each other as well as their treatment/concept of what and who is foreign. I would like to see it make some radical changes.



As things stand now, hell no. Being the gaijin is much better, for me anyway. I think that is the sort of answer edogaijin is looking for, and that is my opinion on the matter.

But I would like to live in a Japan where far less is assumed about me in any case. Note the first three letters of the word "assume." It might be coincidence, but it sure fits that word! Half of my students sleep in a bed btw, and plenty of them dislike natto.

I think it needs more and more time to understand the Japanese and society
no one says anything ' there are problems each other"

especially How to understand the Japanese
First of all, it does not criticize but accepts all the phenomena to you .in japan.