Who really loves Japan and who doesnt?

[jieshi]

I've lived in Japan for 1 year already and now returned home. There is no way my love for Japan will ever die! Japan has become my adopted home country and I know that very soon I will move there again, probably for life.

 

[leonmarino]

My brother in Japan sent me this interesting view on what gaijins go through in Japan.. I have not lived in Japan myself, but I'm curious to what people think of this:

The 5 stages of understanding, or coping rather,
with Japan are denial, anger, bargaining,
depression, and acceptance.

1. Denial:
We cannot fathom that what we see is real. We
think that there must be some underlying level of
sophisticated thinking in the corporate culture
that we are unable to grasp. We think that we are
deficient in some way. We deny that so many stupid
people in such a concentration is possible. We
believe that this all must be some kind of bad
dream. We are coy about asking, "Why? "

2. Anger:
We lose patience with the massive waste of time,
nonsensical formalities and foolish nonsense. We
start to learn the language better so we can get
into deeper conversations at a comparable level.
We start to challenge people for explanations and
soon discover that there are no rational reasons.

3. Bargaining:
OK... We decide that if we try to be even more
open-minded, read more, search out someone
intelligent to help us understand better, we'll
finally grasp the logic and be become a better
person in the long run. You try to be more
'Japanese'.

4. Depression:
It didn't work. As hard as we tried, we are unable
to find any form of common sense that fits in the
rational world. The higher our language
proficiency, the more depressed we become as we
realize that we haven't learned anything useful
from anyone here that will help us in our lives or
enlighten us. Other than technical details, we
discover that we already knew everything anyone
tells us about people, management and business in
general.

5. Acceptance :
Unless you are the president, you will not change
a thing. You will not make any impact at all on
anyone's thought process. Don't even waste your
time thinking about it. Decide what your
acceptable crap-to-salary ratio is and revel in
your gaijinness. Live your life with the values
that are your culture.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans" is fine... when
you're in Rome. This isn't Rome.

 

[Mike Cash]

I've always said that the day this place makes sense to you is the day to pack up and go home.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Why would you hate America? You were born there and grew up there and understand how things operate and can communicate fully (I'm assuming). Your comments make absolutely no sense!

I think that was exactly his point. He is trying to point out that just by being in America hasn't made him dislike it, so why should his mere (extended) presence in Japan be any different.

I must be the only one who never faced culture shock in Japan. But that's because I faced it when I still lived in America. Before I came to reside permanently in Japan, I had a Japanese roommate who couldn't care less about learning English and fitting in in America. That was were I went through all the stages of culture shock, before I even got on the plane! hahaha

 

[Hachiro]

Personally I don't consciously think of myself as "living" in Japan, even though I do. Do you follow what I am saying? I just see myself living somewhere other than my home country with my family, and it just so happens that where we are living is Japan.
I came to this realization after a few years of living here. I quit trying to find reasons or explanations for everything that I did not understand and accepted things as they are. leonmarino made some interesting observations with

The 5 stages of understanding, or coping rather,
with Japan are denial, anger, bargaining,
depression, and acceptance.

all I can say is that these "stages" can come anytime, it doesnt mean that they come in any particular order either. There are days at work where all these "feelings and emotions" come all at once. Oh and it isn't just here in Japan that I feel like this ,on occasion, I get them at home too. Being frustrated with family members or the guy working at the local WalMart that acts like a total jerk or idiot when I ask them a question any 12 yr old could answer. So imo it is all up to the person and how well they can or choose to adapt to living in a foreign country. There is no "mystique" about living here, people in other countries, particularly those in the US (My opinion here folks) that give Japan that image, mostly in my most humble opinion, it comes from a lack of understanding and a type of ignorance that in many cases I see from people from the US in regards to their "views" of the rest of the world, not just Japan.
Of course there are times I got/get "homesick", but it isnt homesick for the USA, it's because I miss my family and elderly mother and it has nothing to do with where they are living. It is just by happenstance that they live in the US and me in Japan.

Keep an open mind and learn as much as you can, dont worry about things you can not control, and most definetly dont worry about something like this before you even get here, that is if you are coming, you will be giving yourself preconcieved notions about what life here "should" be like and not what it actually is.

 

[leonmarino]

Hey I did some googling around as I had nothing to do for a few seconds, then I found out that these five stages are based on some psychological model called the "five stages of grief" by a psychiatrist called Kubler-Ross. So Hachiro is perfectly right in observing that these emotions can be encountered anywhere and anytime basically.

 

[Hachiro]

Hey I did some googling around as I had nothing to do for a few seconds, then I found out that these five stages are based on some psychological model called the "five stages of grief" by a psychiatrist called Kubler-Ross. So Hachiro is perfectly right in observing that these emotions can be encountered anywhere and anytime basically.

Thank you....I would also say that it is not just limited to Japan but anywhere in the world that is not "your" home as well.

Or at least not somehwhere that is "close" to what your home is like.

 

[nice gaijin]

I remember seeing a profile more specific to foreigners in Japan, I just found one version of it:

Where do I fit in?

For the foreign resident in Japan, the attitudes of the ex-pat actually goes through three predictable phases, of varying lengths 1)The Honeymoon Phase, 2) The Critical Phase 3) The Integrating Phase. Let's look at each of these--


The Honeymoon Phase


This always is the mindset of the eager foreigner who has just arrived, and usually lasts a few months to a year. Every day in Japan is like a new day at Disneyland; everything is new, there are lots of places to see and things to do, meeting the warm Japanese is always a joy. Usually the language isn't much of a burden since you simply don't know much of it and don't worry about it. It is these people who stay a short time, go home, and spread myths about Japan being a mystical Shangri-La, full of happy, happy people and money just lying in the street waiting for you to pick it up and make "Big Money Fast".


The Critical Phase

For those that stay longer, they usually leave the Honeymoon and then enter the Critical Phase, which might last several months to even a few years. The disillusionment of Japan not being a Paradise on earth sets in hard, and the ex-pat encounters frustration at dealing with the language (which is profoundly difficult), cultural differences, and Japanese social obstructions such as the constant treatment of being an Outsider, as well as the needless difficulties in finding an apartment, getting a credit card, or functioning in society. The ex-pat may also find that some of the young Japanese have been really friendly more to practice their own English than to become genuine friends. The pleasures and joys of the things back home become missed more, and the realities of paying the highest prices on the planet become clear. Meeting other ex-pats who vent their stress by attacking nearly everything about Japan may aggravate the trouble. Depending on the person, isolationism or alienation may also set in. It is quite easy to spot an immature ex-pat by seeing how they make sweeping generalizations about Japanese people, Japanese women, etc. and think they know everything there is to know about Japan because they just do the same things every day. He may also believe he has all the answers to everything wrong with Japan and become more irate with the fact that Japan isn't following his brilliant conclusions. These types who go home for good usually have little positive to say about Japan, spread misinformation about Japan on the internet and may permanently hold enmity toward it.


The Integrating Phase


If the ex-pat sticks it out though, and usually takes a periodic vacation to blow off steam, he will usually enter the Integrating Phase, the most objective of all. He can see both the good and the bad of Japan and where he's from, and learns to appreciate the best of both worlds. This is the person who has matured more and is an asset to any company. It is not unusual for long-term ex-pats to have a love-hate relationship with Japan, but over all, they have a stronger resilience as well as a greater tolerance than most people back home. Different people of course will behave differently, and your mileage may vary. It is important though to keep an open mind, to learn about yourself as well as Japan and where you're from, and not to get bogged down with negativity. It's not unusual to learn as much about your own country as well since you can note the differences.

This then gives you a few of the more difficult cultural aspects of the Japanese. Many of them may delight you and others may completely sour your stomach -- but remember that they may take your behavior as equally "uncivilized", so there are always more than 2 ways to look at it. Remember you're not from Utopia either, and if you were, you wouldn't be thinking of coming to Japan. Once again, for the "why-is-there-only-bad-things-in-the-newspapers" crowd, it's necessary to re-state that what's listed here in not the whole of Japanese culture, only the things that are difficult -- Japan has many, many positive traits as well but these of course will not be problematic for those adjusting to Japan. On the whole, the Japanese people are very warm, helpful, and gracious to the western visitor. One can attain a lot of personal growth as well as make a lot of good friends in Japan. Only when the westerner stays here long enough and tries to go deeper into the Japanese society does the resistance begin.

Japanese Culture: A Primer For Newcomers, ©1997-2001 All Rights Reserved.

 

[RockLee]

Well, I kind of hate Belgium for not being so technologically advanced, bad internetconnection, not so many things to do compared to other countries, etc. But at the same time I have things here that I can't find in Japan or any other country, I think I'll have to make choices in life.

If I have to start thinking about Japan like some of the members living there now, I shouldn't even bother with moving there at all. In the end I might never want to go to another place after living there, but only time will tell. I don't think it's safe to assume I will automatically get fed up by it, cause for all I know I won't ever be. It's all about how you can cope with living there, even with bad things or things that bother you.

 

[Elizabeth]

If I have to start thinking about Japan like some of the members living there now, I shouldn't even bother with moving there at all. In the end I might never want to go to another place after living there, but only time will tell. I don't think it's safe to assume I will automatically get fed up by it, cause for all I know I won't ever be. It's all about how you can cope with living there, even with bad things or things that bother you.

No kidding. Foreigners may 'annoyed' or 'frustrated' by aspects of life like discrimination, bureaucracy, long work/study hours, and stifling social roles that are stricter than what they were brought up to expect but the Japanese people I know are totally stressed out because they have to suffer these unpleasantries every day of their lives without in many cases having friends to talk freely with it about. Many of them are forced in the end to turn to things like alcohol or complusive shopping to cope.

 

[mash27]

I would like to share my view of Japan, and why I'm interested in the country.
Firstly I think that Japan is interesting because it is the only non-western fully industrialized and advanced country. The other members of the G7 are European or European spawns (US and Canada). It is therefore a perfect example for making comparisons.
Furthermore Japan is also unique compared to other advanced nations in that it isn't the product of 2000 years of Judeo-christian tradition. Even if atheism is widepread in parts of Europe the culture and values of the West are profoudly influence by christianity. Many of the diffrerences in attitudes between Japan and the West concerning the body, sexuality, marriage relationships, good, evil, equality, hierarchy and many others are directly related to the the type of religion the coutry has been exposed to. If u have read Nietzsche then u understand the nefarious effects of christianity. This is why Japan is lucky to have been spared mass christian exposure or conversion.
Many of you are talking about getting "sick" of Japan. I live in Canada and I can say after all these years (i'm 26) that I"m sick of north american culture and find a breath of fresh air in Japanese and to a lesser extent European culture.
For instance Japanese cinema, old and new is superior to american cinema which seems to be aimed at a 7 year old audience. It is also full of cheap sentimentality and melodrama while the JApanese produce more sophisticated films even if like all countries there's also some crap.
Japan's view of sexuality also seems more natural to me and by that I mean less "moral" than what we find in the States.
Japanese food is alos heaven compared to american fast food. I'm mean some of those Japanese dishes look incredible the way everything is arranged.
And no matter how dumb jap TV can get, it can't be dumber than american TV. THe Japanese like to fool around, act retarded, but it's still exciting somehow, while the americans are dumb without even knowing it.
Just a few points I thought of. to be continued...

 

[Mike Cash]

Interestingly, neither the Japanese nor the American media suck so bad that they need a protectionist law to ensure that their homegrown content can compete for programming slots in their own country.

 

[nice gaijin]

For some reason that reminded me of this thread Japan Culture

 

[mash27]

Interestingly, neither the Japanese nor the American media suck so bad that they need a protectionist law to ensure that their homegrown content can compete for programming slots in their own country.

both are big countries and are major centers of media production. It's samller countries like Canada that cannot compete with US productions.

to add to my previous post I would say that in the end it boils down to a question of personal affinity. When u see something u either like it or u don't.

Some people can watch Imamura's Narayama bushiko and struggle to stay awake while others can love and cherish the movie and get a lot out of it. The same goes for Japanese culture. Some people will simply understand and naturally accept the way things are while other just can't.

 

[Mike Cash]

The same goes for Japanese culture. Some people will simply understand and naturally accept the way things are while other just can't.

And some of us live in the middle of it, while others have it lined up on a shelf.

 

[ghettocities]

Shibuya isn't crowded, it is full of life.

My love for Japan will never die but I will eventually die and the only reason I know this is because I've truely lived life. A life of Japan.


How difficult is it to go to Japan?

Sometime after birth you get onto an airplane, you fly a great distance only after the pilot and co-pilot have been born and gone through school in order to fly you to Japan. Inside the airplane you are breathing, there is blood circulating your body, your leg might cramp and your unique brain registers it's pain. A meal on the airplane is served, your brain processes it as far from gourmet but you decide to eat it anyway. The way you eat it is by putting it in your mouth, chewing, digesting, the food enters your body, into your stomach and you are given life. You take a nap on the airplane and wake up. The entire time you slept you were breathing and your body was recovering. The plane, in the air, thousands of feet above water or ground and a seat with inflight movies is in front of you. Movies. Movies only after the producer, cast and crew have been born and gone through life directing and constructing and capturing film in order to give you a movie on an airplane ride to your trip to Japan. You choose a movie. Two hours later you finish the movie and think about it. Your brain thinks about the movie as you forget you are thousands of feet above either water or ground because your brain, that's in your head, behind your eyes, behind your nose, inbetween your ears can only process so much. Sure it's just everyday life, breathing, eating, sleeping. It's no big deal. Your life is only going to happen once and "the world is your oyster." I've never had an oyster before and I don't quite know what that means but "something fishy is going on here."


Excuse my Sunday morning,

Josh

 

[leonmarino]

Many of you are talking about getting "sick" of Japan. I live in Canada and I can say after all these years (i'm 26) that I"m sick of north american culture and find a breath of fresh air in Japanese and to a lesser extent European culture.

I am not getting "sick" of Japan, I am getting sick of people saying they'll never get sick of Japan as if it is the promised land, while it is nothing more than a country like no other. It just happens to have a different culture and different institutions accordingly. And sure, after 26 years of living in one country you might get "sick" of it, like in your case as you say you're sick of North American culture. Many people not living on your continent loves to go there though; land of opportunities, there is lot of space, and compared to a lot of countries there is a level of freedom of speech etc. But these people too might get "sick" of the US or Canada or where-ever after having lived there for 26 years, or less. This is because after a while people will start to see the negative side of a country.
Sure, Japan might have a better cinema culture than North America or better food than the Middle-East and the people might be more respectful than Europeans, but it all comes down what you prefer in a country of residence, or at least think you prefer, as you've never experienced it first hand. To be able to make a balanced judgement you need experience; not from a book or movie, but first-hand experience. Maybe you should try to live 26 years in Japan, and then make a judgement.

 

[ghettocities]

Maybe you should try to live 26 years in Japan, and then make a judgement.

Hey I've been alive for 23 years and it's been a constant hustle up until this year for me to get where I wanted to be (with wealth and everything.) If I spent the next 26 years of my life living in Japan I'd probably love Japan even more than I already do given the fact that everyday I'd be out in the streets meeting the most beautiful Japanese women, filming like there was no tomorrow and shooting so many photos you could call me The Flash.

Josh

 

[nice gaijin]

yikes.

10 characters.

 

[RockLee]

Lol Josh ! "The Flash", I gotta remember that one ;-)

 

[Pachipro]

Actually, I would say that everyone does get annoyed by living here a few years. They'd have to be blissfully ignorant and live in an amazing coccoon not to.

It's more a question of how much they get annoyed and how well they handle being annoyed.

If you go to live in Japan, after some time you may no longer "love" it (because when you live somewhere, you see the bad things as well as the good things).

But there is no reason to suppose you'll then go to the opposite extreme and hate it... or even find everything about it uninteresting. More likely it will just become more ordinary to you, as you get used to living there. And of course, you might feel a little homesick for some familiar things.

I think you'd have to be pretty cynical, or just a very boring and grumpy person, to get entirely fed up with a country. Every country in the world has some good things and some bad things about it.

I agree with Mike and Kinsao. Of all the years I lived in Japan I can't say that I ever came to "hate" it per se, but I was extremely frustrated and annoyed at times with the differences in culutre and all.

I've said it many times before that, no matter who you are or how long you have have lived in Japan, you will eventually have a love-hate relationship with the country and culture. It's only natural. The true test is how well you can handle the parts of the cutlure you don't agree with or that annoy you and whether you can accept them and still enjoy living there as Mike alluded to.

I've seen people get so frustrated and annoyed at the things that bothered them that they up and left Japan with a very bitter taste in their mouth after proclaiming how much they loved living there during their first year. This is the majority of people who come to Japan to live and work because it was their lifelong dream or desire and very few of them took the time to actually learn the language and culture.

On the other hand, there are those that accept Japan for what it is and enjoy their stay because they so much enjoy living in a foreign country and the other aspects of the culture. These are few and far between at best and most do tend to learn the language and culture.

Me, I was in the latter. I never intended to go to Japan and probably couldn't find it on a map when I was 15. I just ended up there with the military, did my stint and drove out the gate when my time was up to live and stay there.

To me it was just another place to live and a place I thoroughly enjoyed so why not stay. If I came to dislike it I could always leave. The frustrating things about Japan that bother so many foreigners also bothered me at times. But I came to the realization that no matter what country I live in there will always be things that frustrate and annoy me and it has proved to be true. Even here in Tennessee there are things that annoy me but I accept them as a fact of life. The other aspects of living here I thoroughly enjoy and the positive outweighs the negative.

On the other hand, I did return to New York City (where I was born and raised) to hopefully live and work, but the negative far outweighed the positive so I left after a few months never to return again.

I did not leave Japan because I came to hate it, I left as a matter of economics just before the crash in 1990. It was a bitter-sweet parting. I wanted to purchase a house but prices were rising faster than I could gather enough for a downpayment and it got just too rediculous. Do I miss it? Yes I do and plan on returning permanently because the positive (to me at least) far outweigh the negative.

So it all depends on how you handle the things that frustrate you but remember one thing, the odds are against you based on experience and the true test will come after living there 3 or 4 years. As Mike Cash said, "No one is immune to it." Most don't make it. But those that do, end up enjoying their experience and accepting the negative aspects of the culture. Good luck.