grapefruit
先輩
- 2 Sep 2008
- 500
- 9
If they were segregated, it does not make sense. Why were basic words vastly adopted from the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages? In England, such adoption of words from the Celtic did not take place, did it?
It was pretty much like the early Germanic migrants to UK who led a segregated life from natives and didn't mix (much) with them. Japanese commoners at that time didn't wear clothes, only nobles did.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5192634.stm
"although it is quite clear that some of the Koguryo place names indeed represent in all likelihood a language related to Japanese that was once spoken in the center of the Korean peninsula."
i think Kaya ppl was wajin.
they were not Today's korean origin
anyway. koguryo ppl and Kudara were not today's korean's origin.
Kudara's dominant ppl and commoners spoke different languages.
i think chinese ones are good as third person.
you should explain okinawan language and Yamato language..
why does Okinawa language that is further than Korea look like Japanese?
If they were segregated, it does not make sense. Why were basic words vastly adopted from the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages? In England, such adoption of words from the Celtic did not take place, did it?
Wikipedia (whose value as a source is admittedly somewhat questionable) lists the Koguryo hypothesis as the most widely accepted theory of relationship
1. The history of Korea has quite a lot of taboos. One of them is the fact that ancient Japan "ruled" Korea.
2. In this age, Japan was fought off by Goguryeo. But this history is not written in Korean history textbooks. The reason comes from the fact that Japan's expansion of this age conflicts with their delusion, which is "Ancient Korea brought first culture and civilization to Japan." .
3. There are quite a lot delusions, which are nonobjective, in historical view of Korea. But we should not leave their delusions lay, just because they are the people who "can believe only what they want to believe". Because their delusions distort the facts, often hurt national interests unreasonably, and can encourage even their territorial ambition.
4. Korean side avoid public places or objective methods to end many problems caused by their delusions. Instead of them, they try to force their "historical view" by propaganda. This applies to the kumdo problem.
5. The expansion of ancient Japan is a desirable instance which was settled by the objective evidence
1. Why isn't Korea proud of defeating ancient Japan?
There are some unwritten facts in Korean history textbooks(note1).
As I wrote before, the modernization and independence by Japan is one of such historic taboos.
Related articles 1 2
Now I will introduce another historic taboo, which is ancient Japan's expansion to Korean Peninsula. Korean history textbooks do not describe this fact, too.
Japan's expansion is also recorded on Gwanggaeto(The king of Goguryeo(B.C.37?-A.D.668) stele, which is designated a World Heritage Site. But some historians of Korea or from Korea have claimed that this record did not originally supported ancient Japan's expansion because Japanese Army had altered this record. Though their claim turned out to be a groundless accusation, their claim have been preventing this stele from being subjected to study for years.
But do you wonder why Korean historians want to deny fighting off the invasion of ancient Japan ?
Korean textbooks describe proudly they fought off Hideyoshi's expansion. They also describes proudly Gwanggaeto fought off ancient Japan's expansion as his stele.
Why don't they accept ancient Japan's expansion?
2.Because they want to believe "they had given Japan first culture and civilization".
The reason seems to be their fantasy, based on petit Sinocentrism, which is that Korea imparted culture and civilization to Japan in the first place.
It is true that their textbooks(translated version) describe how many culture came from Korean Peninsula one after the other. But most of them seem to originate from China and I can see some description includes evident mistakes though I am not very familiar with this age.
Additionally their textbooks go so far as to describe that Korea "civilized" Japan on the assumption that they had been excellent in terms of culture.
Additionally I have seen several times the Korean messages on bbs with translational function that Japanese were the same as Aborigine (The person, who posted this article, seemed to use this word in discriminatory connotation) till Koreans came to Japan.
They seem to think Japan had neither culture nor civilization before Buddhism came to Japan in the 6th century(The fact is that ancient Japan ruled the territory from Kinki to Kyushu till the latter half of the 4th century.).
I am surprised their surprising view(Korea gave Japan culture and civilization) which seem to be general view to many Koreans who have been educated in Korea. It is inconvenient that Japan expanded to Korea before to them.(As I will write later, this view conflicts with the Korean book on history, Chronicles of three nations (Sangokushiki in Japanese)).
I have a feeling that many Koreans (including Korean descents) give priority to their "pride" than historic truth in education and research. The same can be said to their view on the inscription on Gwanggaeto stele.
3.Now, Korea began to force their delusion on the world!
By the way, I was surprised to find a Korean textbook describes Baekje(an old dynasty of Korean Peninsula(?-A.D.660) ruled Kyushu, which is a part of Japan. Perhaps any historical record did not support this story, or Baekje's expansion to Japan has no foundation. But it would seem that one historical record is considered to be a ground.
The record say Baekje ruled "some islands" other than apart of Korean Peninsula.
-> The words, "some islands" "must" include Kyushu, a part of Japan, by extension!
This "must" theory made Baekje have expanded to Japan. Certainly Kyushu is a big island..
But watching this, I can't sit complacent anymore, only complaining they are the people can believe only what they want to believe.
Because, for example, such an incoherent delusion might make Lee Seungman(the first president of south Korea) demand a part of Kyushu as their new territory. Additionally, a Korean political organization have a groundbreaking claim which is "returning Tushima island". Not only that, a local public entity designated "the day of Tsushima", and there is a stele which have a inscription "Tsushima is the Korean territory"! Oh, this stele was established recently in case.
But then when did Tsushima belong to Korea at all?
This applies Takeshima(Korean name: Dokdo) problem and "Sea of Japan" problem. The former problem is Korean government's illegal occupation of Japanese island. The latter one is Koreans complain the name of "Sea of Japan". They claim that the international name of "Sea of Japan" should be changed into "East sea" which is local name in Korea.
Their delusions are causing these problems. In other words, these problems are occurring because they shout "Admit our delusions!" at Japan and the world.
4.They force their delusion by propaganda.
They always try to force their delusions mostly by their propaganda about these problems. This also applies to "kumdo" problem. More or less they never want to end the matters in a public place or by objective methods.
About Takeshima problem, Korean government never stand the trial of International Court of Justice, though they agreed on it when concluding normalization treaty between Japan and South Korea.
About "Sea of Japan" problem, the Korean government said they agreed to negotiate only when Japanese government made concession to Korea. This is the same as refusing negotiation. Instead of negotiation, an organization of Korea named VANK, makes many Koreans or Korean descents, including elementary school students, send excessively large number of e-mails to many famous sites with world maps to change their maps. VANK receives subsidies from Korean government.
It goes without saying that international sporting events are just what they need to make propaganda from their eyes. For example, WC, WBC and Olympic games.
Hmm...when writing this, I'm going to be sick.
5. A desirable instance which was settled by the objective evidence.
I will introduce you the newspaper article about Gwanggaeto stele. This article reports this stele's inscription conclusively proved not to have been altered(=this stele supports Japan's expansion to Peninsula.).
I think this is a desirable instance settled by the objective evidence.
--------- quote ----------
The oldest rubbed copy of Gwanggaeto Stele was found
This copy conforms closely to Imperial Japanese Army's one.
The oldest rubbed copy of Gwanggaeto Stele(in the northeastern Chinese province of Jilin) was found in China. This rubbed copy conforms closely to Imperial Japanese Army's one, including descriptions about ancient Japan. This fact became clear by Jo Kenshin's study. He is a professor at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. He majors in Japanese ancient history.
His study put an end to the controversy over the inscription on this stele from 70's. Some people claimed that Imperial Japanese Army had altered this inscription, but this theory could be proved incorrect conclusively.
The inscription on this stele says:
"Since 391, Wa(Japan) crossed sea and defeated Baekje, ?? and Silla and made them subjects."
In 1883, this rubbed copy was gotten by Sakoh Kagenobu, who was an officer of Japan Army General Staff. Japanese Army General Staff concluded that Japan had ruled Korean Peninsula in ancient times.
After the war, some people questioned the credibility of Sakoh's rubbed copy. In 1972, Lee, professor emeritus at Wako University, claimed that Japanese Army had altered this inscription to justify their expanding to Korean Peninsula. Lee's theory aroused great controversy between the researchers from 4 countries, Japan, China, Korea and North Korea. Since then the widely held theory was propounded, but this theory did not put an end to the controversy over the inscription under the condition that it's difficult to verify theories with the real thing.
Jo professor have been studying about 50 real rubbed copies in various nations of East Asia. Year before last, he found a rubbed copy copied in 1881 at the auction of Peking. This copy is older than Sakoh's one, which had been considered as the oldest until then. He captured this and Sakoh's to his PC and compared them. Then he found there is no sign of intentional alteration. This year, the outcomes of his study was published in the book, "The study of rubbed copies of Gwanggaeto Stele(TokyoDo)".
Jo professor stressed the significance of his study and said " This result will release us from proving the emperor-centered historic view of old Japan or Japanese army's involvement, and Gwanggaeto Stele will be appreciated as a pure historical record to reveal the history of East Asia from the 4th to 5th century." But a widely-accepted theory says this inscription describes Japan as a more powerful nation than it really was. This theory explains that the inscription exaggerates the achievement of Gwanggaeto who defeated Japan. Though Imperial Japanese Army's alteration is denied, this does not automatically mean ancient Japan ruled the whole Korean Peninsula.
Yoshimura Takehiko, a professor at Meiji University majors in ancient history, appreciated this study and said "The rubbed copy found recently is so credible that we can say this copy ended the great controversy for long years. The method of study is comparing pictures in PC, which was unpredictable 10 years ago. This can become possible in I.T. age."
On the contrary, Lee professor emeritus disputed, "He identified the year copied on the strength of the attachment to this rubbed copy. But there is a doubt whether the copy is a real thing. This study did not clear the suspicion against Japanese army completely."
Footnote: Gwanggaeto Stele
This stele was built (Jilin Province) in 414, after 2 years after Gwanggaeto died, to reward his accomplishment. Gwanggaeto was the king of Goguryeo(0? - A.D.668) which ruled from the north China to the north Korean Peninsula. This stele is 6.2 meters high, and the tallest gravestone in east Asia. The outcomes of his wars and the other accomplishment are incused with 1800 characters. In 1880, an official of China(Sino) discovered this. This stele is designated a World Heritage Site with tombs nearby.
On the the 19th page of the Yomiuri newspaper morning edition 2006/04/14
--------- unquote ----------
This inscription is not the only record about ancient Japan's expanding to Korean Peninsula.
For example, Chinese book on history, Chronicles of Sui Dynasty("Zui Sho" in Japanese) describes Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power.
This book says;
Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power and have many rare things. Each of them respects Japan, and dispatches envoys who always come and go to Japan.
Korean book on history, Chronicles of three nations(Sangokushiki in Japanese) says Baekje and Silla send their princes to Japan as hostages.
This book says;
In 397, Baekje establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Chonjiwan to Japan as a hostage.
In 402, Silla establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Mikishin to Japan as a hostage.
Japanese book on history, Chronicles of Japan("Nihonshoki" in Japanese) also records their expansion to Korean Peninsula, though there are various theories as to when each event happened.
These records are compliment one another and do not conflict with another(They are only representative examples).
These facts show that ancient Japan really ruled at least a part of Korean Peninsula.
I think this operation turned out to be improper. They had better claim Japan had invaded their nations without using such big words as "We had given Japan first culture and civilization!". And should they demand an apology from the invasion of over1600 years?
think Kaya ppl was wajin.
they were not Today's korean origin
anyway. koguryo ppl and Kudara were not today's korean's origin.
Kudara's dominant ppl and commoners spoke different languages.
lawl...
This is not an explanation for language borrowing or generation. It sounds like an excuse for not being able to explain the facts with the model.It did, but just because similar migration occurred that doesn't mean subsequent events happened in the same way also, depend on geographical position, social and political situation, among other things that might have affected the evolution of the Japanese language.
It did, but just because similar migration occurred that doesn't mean subsequent events happened in the same way also, depend on geographical position, social and political situation, among other things that might have affected the evolution of the Japanese language.
Talhae of Silla (?-80, r. 57-80) was the fourth king of Silla, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. He is commonly called Talhae Isageum, isageum being the royal title in early SillaTalhae of Silla
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talhae_of_Silla#cite_note-0He was born in a small kingdom 1000 li northeast of Wa (Japan).
Aynu are definitely NOT Caucasians. They are proto-Mongoloids, but not Negroids .
which is half Korean (O2b)
I am always lol whenever I read those tons of Japanese 'theses' to prove Ainu are of Caucasoid to show Japanese superior to other Asian.
Overall, however, the highest proportions of haplogroup O2a have been found among the aboriginal inhabitants of the Nicobar Islands, a territorial possession of India that is located just south of the Andaman Islands and just north of the Indonesian island of Sumatra, and among the aboriginal inhabitants of Orissa state in eastern India. The Nicobarese aborigines and the Juang people of Orissa, India are nearly 100% haplogroup O2a. The Korku people in central India (Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra states) are also about 80% haplogroup O2a.
As for haplogroup O2b, the highest frequencies are found among Japanese and Koreans (up to 40% among some samples of Koreans and up to 35% among some samples of Japanese), but the O2b Y-DNA found among Japanese is mostly O2b1a-47z, whereas among Koreans it is mostly O2b1*(x47z); in other words, most of the Japanese haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes have a further mutation that is absent from the majority of Korean O2b Y-chromosomes. This distinction between the Korean variety of O2b and the Japanese variety of O2b seems to be quite sharp; only about 5% or fewer Koreans belong to the typically Japanese O2b1a (versus about 22% of Japanese; however, frequencies among Korean samples vary from approx. 0% to approx. 12% for this subclade, suggesting a possibility of significant regional variation within the Korean population in regards to the occurrence of haplogroup O2b1a), and the same proportion of Japanese (about 5%, but varying from approx. 2% to approx. 7% depending on the sample) belong to the typically Korean subclade, O2b1*.
Also, it seems that the haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes found in Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Thailand, etc.) are divided between haplogroup O2b1*(x47z) and O2b1a-47z, just as the O2b Y-chromosomes found in Korea and Japan are divided between these two subgroups. This suggests that the 47z mutation that defines the (typically Japanese) haplogroup O2b1a-47z should have occurred prior to the interaction(s) that brought haplogroup O2b1* and O2b1a to their present locations in Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, and Korea. The O2b Y-chromosomes found in Manchuria, however, apparently belong only to haplogroup O2b*(xO2b1), which suggests that these haplogroup O2b ancestors split off and migrated into the ancestral Manchurian population prior to the emergence of the subclades, O2b1 and O2b1a.
Thanks ... caster51
Alright,the O2b Y-DNA found among Japanese is mostly O2b1a-47z.How is it trace to Yangtze River's civilization ?!
Japan is a culture of rice farm that was origin of Yangtze River.I think The Japanese culture very similar with Hmong & Vietnamese..
If rice farm is seen, it might be clear.Were some of Japanese forefathers related to them and can you provide pre-historic tribal identities ?
Maciamo,do you consider the English people are of German-Scandinavian origins or Anglo-Saxon-Jute & Viking origins ?
Japanese certainly know who their ancestors were,mainly Jomon & Yayoi not proto-Mongoloid Siberians & Sino-Korean peoples as they often refer being " 50% "ꕶl " & " 50% –í¶l " amongst themselves.
The Ainu haplogroup formed about 40% of the modern Japanese fatherline,and in fact Ainus have nothing to do with Caucasians genetically,they are more related to the Africans(Ainus typical haplogroup D,which is closely linked to the modern Africans( DE and E).While the physical anthropologists often grouped the Ainus together with some south pacific islanders.
Loving said:There is no proof whether the haplogroup O was from south China or Southeast Asian,but one thing for sure is, it has formed the majority of East and Southeast Asian populations today.Among the eastAsians,Han Chinese haplogroup O is over 60% on the average(higher in South Chinese than North Chinese),Koreans 80%+,the Japanese got the least (50%+).