What is your religion? Why?

[Hezam]

Morals do NOT originate from religion, and considering things that happen in most religious texts, I consider it a very good thing that moral examples of them are picked and chosen, not all selected. It seems people have a VERY hard time understanding this relatively basic concept.

This is totally wrong,As you see the Moral corruption originated by the non-belivers who don't have any faith or rules to prevent the bad acts.
Not all non-religuos but most of them,And there are many examples in this world.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I think there are SOME aspects of religion that COULD be a good thing. For instance, religious teachings may be the foundation of a person's morals and values.

Morals do NOT originate from religion

While I agree with Emoni that in general morals do not originate from religion, I also think Hmm has a point that religion can be the foundation of morals for some individuals. When we were children we didn't have the capacity to decide for ourselves between right and wrong, so we deferred to our parents. In a similar way, some adults do not have the capacity or the inclination to formulate their own moral codes, so they defer to religion. However, I'm sceptical of the suggestion that this could ever be considered "a good thing".

This is totally wrong,As you see the Moral corruption originated by the non-belivers who don't have any faith or rules to prevent the bad acts.
Not all non-religuos but most of them,And there are many examples in this world.

I think it's far from conclusive that there is any correlation between a person's beliefs and their moral character. There are good atheists and bad, good religionists and bad; most people are in the grey area.

For every example of a morally corrupt atheist I bet I can give you an example of a morally corrupt religionist ;-)

 

[Emoni]

This is totally wrong,As you see the Moral corruption originated by the non-belivers who don't have any faith or rules to prevent the bad acts.
Not all non-religuos but most of them,And there are many examples in this world.

If it is totally wrong, the define morals, moral corruption (what "bad acts?") and explain with some sort of creditable source because this makes no sense. ( And no quoting religious texts isn't a creditable source...)

 

[Mycernius]

This is totally wrong,As you see the Moral corruption originated by the non-belivers who don't have any faith or rules to prevent the bad acts.
Not all non-religuos but most of them,And there are many examples in this world.

Really, are you 100% sure on that? There are fundies of various religions whose morals, that they claim are from god, I wouldn't even go anywhere near. Christians are the best ones with "Thou shalt not kill", yet a few passages later it calls for the killing of witches. In fact the bible and quran are full of passages condoning murder, from infidels to children. They condone rape, treatment of women as second class, even as a different being. Yet they say nothing on paedeophilia, a practice that all sane and normal societies condemn.

The UK doesn't have a death penalty, neither does any country that is a member of the EU. In fact only Belorus and Latvia still retain it. yet when we look at the countries that do still have the death penalty we see that most are the more religious or religiously minded; The US, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Libya. see for yourslef
File:Death Penalty World Map.svg - Wikipedia
If we look at the most secular and athestic countries such as Sweden and Norway we find that they have an overall lower crime rate that the more religious.
The Times & The Sunday Times
Studies carried out in the US find that most of the prison iopulation are religious rather than non-religious (I will try and find that stat). Atheist divorce rates are lower than the religious.
Divorce Rates for Atheists Lower Than Christians
Plus there is the wonderful morals of the catholic church and its kiddie fiddling preists.

Overall when you look at the so called moralistic religious against us immoral heathens and atheists we have a tendency to find that the moral corrupt are the religious.
I have yet to find a war that was started and fought with atheism as the main cause. I have yet to find a suicide bomber, a corrupt preacher, a fake faith healer who does it in the name of no gods.

 

[Hezam]

Fulfill,Secretariat and polite speech, modesty and honesty...etc.
I think it doesn't need sources ! but since you need a source then see this maps :

Suicide rates :



Crimes rates :

Notice : Iraq has this rate because the American aggression.

But i don't deny that this map is true :

We are suffering from corruption....There is no Islamic system or Democracy system to stop those damn governers here,So people start attacking the governments..

death penalty is very necessary,The crimes will increase as you see in the map above.

Also I agree with some of what you said,Religion is not everything,There are new good systems.

 

[Emoni]

Of course you need sources, and a map certainly isn't going to be detailed enough if you don't provide an actually connecting argument.

1) What does suicide have to do with anything?? This is often a connection to depression or other disorders, or possibly on going pain.

2) While I think the American occupation DOES have a connection to increased crime rates in Iraq, you haven't provided proof of this in anyway, or even an argument for it. Furthermore, you haven't proven anything related to religion being connected to your map. Japan has low crime rates, so does North Korea (of course data is unreliable), some countries in Europe... What does this prove? What WERE you trying to prove actually? That low crime rates are due to religion? Only Islam? That it is random?

3) Then you shoot your argument (which isn't even defined) in the foot with a map of corruption that shows it is every where (although it isn't explained how this was obtained or how it was measured)

Sorry, but to then state that the death penalty is necessary (which isn't the purpose of this thread) at the end, as if you have backed up the reason here, doesn't make fit. What were you even trying to say?

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"This is totally wrong,As you see the Moral corruption originated by the non-belivers who don't have any faith or rules to prevent the bad acts."

I once heard someone say that true ethics are what you do when you know that no one is watching.

But the whole concept of religion as an enforcer of morals is that God is watching. What is better: to do good because you fear God's punishment, or to do good for its own sake and the sake of society?

 

[Emoni]

[youtube]

I couldn't help but think of this video...

 

[Hezam]

Of course you need sources, and a map certainly isn't going to be detailed enough if you don't provide an actually connecting argument.
1) What does suicide have to do with anything?? This is often a connection to depression or other disorders, or possibly on going pain.
2) While I think the American occupation DOES have a connection to increased crime rates in Iraq, you haven't provided proof of this in anyway, or even an argument for it. Furthermore, you haven't proven anything related to religion being connected to your map. Japan has low crime rates, so does North Korea (of course data is unreliable), some countries in Europe... What does this prove? What WERE you trying to prove actually? That low crime rates are due to religion? Only Islam? That it is random?
3) Then you shoot your argument (which isn't even defined) in the foot with a map of corruption that shows it is every where (although it isn't explained how this was obtained or how it was measured)
Sorry, but to then state that the death penalty is necessary (which isn't the purpose of this thread) at the end, as if you have backed up the reason here, doesn't make fit. What were you even trying to say?

You really have a problem !!
1- soul emptiness and a life with no goal or faith,Pain,Problems...
2- Are you sure you are not drunk ? even drunk person will agree with what i said.
3- Actually i don't understand what proof you will belive ! You are very contradictious.

About Death Penalty i replyed to Mycernius:

The UK doesn't have a death penalty, neither does any country that is a member of the EU. In fact only Belorus and Latvia still retain it. yet when we look at the countries that do still have the death penalty we see that most are the more religious or religiously minded; The US, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Libya. see for yourslef

I want to know what will you belive ? what sort of proof you need ?

 

[Emoni]

Providing a basic argument for what you are trying to express would go a long way. If you can't show evidence, at least give a logical argument to support and explain your thinking please.

No, I'm not drunk. You either don't understand, or I wasn't clear enough.

The basic problem is, you aren't explaining how your maps connect to your statements.

 

[Mycernius]

You really have a problem !!
1- soul emptiness and a life with no goal or faith,Pain,Problems...

Are you saying tnat I think my life is empty, souless and full of pain and problems? I live a happy life with no more problems than anyone else (usually money related. I don't get paid enough) I have no pain or live in perpetual fear that I might be doing something wrong to piss off an imaginary sky fairy. I have only one life and I intend to enjoy it. You seem to live your life with an underlying fear of death and punishment afterward.
Sorry, but this is the only life you get. Harsh, deal with it!

2- Are you sure you are not drunk ? even drunk person will agree with what i said.

Drunk people are not rational, I should know, I've been drunk enough times.

About Death Penalty i replyed to Mycernius:
I want to know what will you belive ? what sort of proof you need ?

We do have a thread dealing with the death penalty, but to quickly answer. I think it is barbaric. State condoned murder, and in Saudi Arabia they even haven't got the balls to do it themselves and the executors are usually foreign. Executions in stadiums as a form of mass entertainment. Might as well bring back gladiators and lions eating christians. This from a country that is supposed to get its morals from a god. It is sick, perverse and belongs in the past.

On your maps, as Emoni pointed out, the crime rates, suicide rates do not match with religious practice. In crime Saudi, a religious country, matches Japan and Norway, one of the most secxular countries in the world. Yemen, Turkey and Iran match the UK. Pakistan and Jordan matches the southern US states. It seems that beliefs and crime do not measure up, one reason why I didn't put these maps up.
Your suicide rates have no data for most of the middle east and africa, so a pointless map.

 

[Hezam]

In crime Saudi, a religious country, matches Japan and Norway,

Well,This is enough as proof.

It's an endless discussion,But death penalty is not barbaric,the barbaric is what those criminals do so the deserve the punishment witch matchs what they did.

 

[Emoni]

Well,This is enough as proof.
It's an endless discussion,But death penalty is not barbaric,the barbaric is what those criminals do so the deserve the punishment witch matchs what they did.

... Um, congratulations, you just proved you didn't understand your own data, and strongly implied along with us that religion likely has no connection to the crime rate of a country. Was that what you meant to do? Somehow, I don't think so... :/

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if basic critical thinking, logic, or argumentation is ever taught in middle eastern countries. I have yet to see one poster from there who seems to even understand the concept Everyone seems to think, "Hey look! A bunny! Therefore, there is a God/morals come from God/and I'm Right" and somehow not even see how the logic makes no sense what-so-ever.

BTW, there was some woman who had an affair that I know, plus she's not Islamic. Should we shoot her in the head?

Couldn't help but think of this.

 

[Hezam]

Stop Hypocrisy please...shoot her wherever you want,We live in peace here more than any other countries.
Why don't you leave people live thier life ?
Is the freedom to kill people if they don't accept your democracy ?
Enough Hypocrisy...Enough.

 

[Emoni]

.... huh? What are you going of on about hypocrisy for?

I swear half the time you are challenged to support the statements you are made, you jump back to cliches like this.

If you are going to make a HUGE statement like "Morals don't come from religion] is totally wrong,As you see the Moral corruption originated by the non-belivers who don't have any faith or rules to prevent the bad acts." Then you better damn well back it up. That doesn't mean showing random colorful maps with no argument that largely shoot down your own argument, it means you don't even understand your own statement it seems. You've proven time and time again that your English is quite good, so it clearly isn't a language issue.

This is a forum where ideas and opinions should be supported if you expect anyone to listen to you. If you can't support your idea or opinion to SOME degree, then you can expect no one to take you seriously. Shooting off about hypocrisy, or random other unrelated tirades doesn't get you anywhere and just makes you seem emotional, unstable, and unable to think clearly; therefore, your statements hold little value.

As i said, I sometimes agree with you (although obviously, I don't here), but you never seem to support what you say, or seem to know how... Even when many posters have explained time and time again what you need to do and given examples themselves just by their own arguments.

 

[Hezam]

or random other unrelated tirades doesn't get you anywhere and just makes you seem emotional, unstable, and unable to think clearly; therefore, your statements hold little value.

Excatly,glad you spot my my situation, honestly i am very angry because of what's happening in Al-Quds this time and it's going to be a religious war here Almost.

Let's see what i posted ...
homicide rate:
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

Suicide rates
List of countries by suicide rate - Wikipedia

If we have a strong deterrent then people won't dare to kill,steal,..etc.
Murder crimes descrease in Texas after they approved Death Penalty,read this article :
Does Death Penalty Save Lives? A New Debate (Published 2007)

 

[Emoni]

*sigh* never mind...

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Some of the social policies served by the death penalty:

1. General deterrence - deters the general population from committing serious crimes.

2. Specific deterrence - makes damn sure that this particular offender won't do it again.

3. Satisfies society's sense of right and wrong, and need for justice.

4. Satisfies the victim's family that justice has been done, so that they won't take the law into their own hands.

 

[Mycernius]

Well,This is enough as proof.

Proof of what? It shows that there is no correlation between crime rates and religion. Your argument is that there should be as people who do not follow religious morals codes should be more criminal. Norway, a highly non-religious country has a low crime; Saudi Arabia, a highly religious country, has a low crime rate; Japan, a highly secular country, has a low crime rate.
Conclusion: Religious morals does not equal higher crime rates.

If you wish to continue discussing the death penalty then take it too the correct thread.
Capital punishment

there is also a thread about morality and religion
Morality

 

[Emoni]

^ Said it better than I did.

 

[Yuki no Shiwasu]

I think the death penalty is morally wrong. Watch a film called The Green Mile (it's based on a Stephen King book) and then see if your opinions (if you think the death penalty is right) have changed.

I watched it and my views on the death penalty completely changed. Watch it and see for yourself...

 

[Emoni]

So fiction beats real life now... who'da thunk.

 

[Hezam]

Proof of what? It shows that there is no correlation between crime rates and religion. Your argument is that there should be as people who do not follow religious morals codes should be more criminal. Norway, a highly non-religious country has a low crime; Saudi Arabia, a highly religious country, has a low crime rate; Japan, a highly secular country, has a low crime rate.
Conclusion: Religious morals does not equal higher crime rates.
If you wish to continue discussing the death penalty then take it too the correct thread.
Capital punishment
there is also a thread about morality and religion
Morality

I found out that the crime rate depends on the Penalties,religous or Law.
As much as the Penalty is severe,crime rate will decrease.
It's not about religions...it's all about Penalties.

Sorry to post that here again,but i needed to qoute your reply :sorry:

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Norway abolished the death penalty in 1902 but has the lowest homicide rate in the world.

The USA still has the death penalty in 36 states and it has the highest documented incarceration rate. However, it has one of the highest homicide rates of industrialised countries - three times that of Canada, and five times that of Germany, neither of which has the death penalty.

 

[Emoni]

I found out that the crime rate depends on the Penalties,religous or Law.
As much as the Penalty is severe,crime rate will decrease.
It's not about religions...it's all about Penalties.
Sorry to post that here again,but i needed to qoute your reply :sorry:

How did you find that? Where did you find that?

Show, don't tell. Explain how you got those conclusions, because i don't see anything connections what-so-ever with the maps and data you have shown. All you have done is destroy your own argument so far. All I see is you posting random maps, stating your opinion without supporting it, and making up conclusions based off of data that supports the opposite. Hardly what I call convincing!

If you have found a connection, show how you've done that.