washingtonpost; Sniping Between China, Japan Escalates

TuskCracker · 25 May 2005

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- - > Does this ever end ?

Sniping Between China, Japan Escalates
By AUDRA ANG
The Associated Press
Tuesday, May 24, 2005; 2:39 PM

BEIJING -- China on Tuesday blamed Japanese comments about a war shrine for its decision to cut short a visit to Tokyo by one of Beijing's top officials, setting off a new round of sniping between the Asian powers as Japan demanded an apology for the apparent snub.

Chinese Vice Premier Wu Yi abruptly canceled a meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi and left Tokyo on Monday in a move that appears to have shaken a tenuous truce between the two rivals, which are trying to dissipate ill will unleashed during anti-Japanese protests in China last month.

Kong Quan, a spokesman for China's Foreign Ministry, said Beijing was upset about remarks Japanese leaders made during Wu's eight-day trip concerning visits to the Yasukuni Shrine, which critics say glorifies Tokyo's militaristic past. China's state-run Xinhua news agency denounced Koizumi for what it said was his remark that he did not see why he should stop visiting the memorial.

"China's government attaches great importance to its relations with Japan and has made unrelenting efforts in this regard," Kong said. "This visit by Vice Premier Wu Yi to Japan gives testimony to such efforts.

"What is very regrettable is that during Vice Premier Wu Yi's visit, the Japanese leaders made repeated remarks on the Yasukuni Shrine, which is not conducive to bilateral relations."

He added: "We are not happy with that."

But Japanese officials condemned the sudden departure as a breach of political etiquette.

"In terms of manners, it lacked common sense," said Internal Affairs Minister Taro Aso.

Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura complained to reporters that "there was no word of apology."

"There is supposed to be a word of apology, and without it a society cannot function," he said.

... on and on..

adam.won · 9 Jun 2005

I am FOR WuYi

Every negotiation has a background , when the background is torn ,then it's just necessary to go on.

TuskCracker · 16 Jun 2005

Sniping Between China, Japan Escalates

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I didn't write this, but i totally agree. this demonstrations and posturing by China, is % 99.0 for recent political issues. China is using the moral issue to be a bully on recent issues. Deep down, they are really do not care about WWII and the atrocities. Issues are;
-> Membership in United Nations
-> Small border disputes, based on Islands
-> Rubbing the nose of Japan, further, which is aggravated by the very vocal minority right-wing Japanese nationalist
-> Bulling Japan, to slow their leverage on the Taiwan issue

At least Japan is a democracy with no restrictions on access to
information abroad. Can you say that of Mainland/Communist China.

would like to offer an opinion regarding recent anti-Japanese protests in China. If anyone thinks that the resent violent demonstrations are spontaneous protests caused by textbooks, then they are greatly mistaken. In a country where non-government sanctioned gatherings are strictly forbidden, the protesters in question obviously had tacit approval if not encouragement from the powers that be. Cunningly, the Chinese government is channeling unrest and decent away from domestic issues to a foreign entity - in this case Japan. It is an old trick responsible for many wars throughout history. But the real issue, as the Chinese government knows well enough, is not Japanese textbooks: it's Japan seeking permanent membership in the United Nations Security Council. Even if my assertion is faulty, that textbooks are being used as a pretext for demonstrations, the fact is no country has the right to mandate what another country prints in its school textbooks. Would the United States of America allow Vietnam, Korea, the Philippines or any other country for that matter, dictate what went into its school textbooks. I don't think so. Good thing too because if America had to record each one of its crimes against a foreign state and people then their children would be carrying around some pretty heavy books!
The truth of the matter is Japan simply wants to live in the present and look to the future. But there are those who will always want to return to the past - especially if it serves their political interests as in the recent developments in China. But the fact is no amount of contriteness or 'coming to terms' with the past (which Japan has already expressed on many occasions) will ever satisfy China. If it is not an apology, it's dictating the contents of Japan's textbooks. If not dictating the contents of textbooks, its a never ending demand for war reparations. If not reparations, it's trade concessions. The truth is China will always dig up the past no matter what is printed in textbooks - especially when trade agreements, concessions, territorial issues are at stake. And most definitely when the international status quo is being reformed.

To add insult to injury, in the process of deriding Japan, the Chinese government now pertains to speak on behalf of all Asia. Coming from a non-democratic government that has murdered well over 40 million of its own people, perhaps they should speak for themselves - or at least add the millions murdered under communist rule to their textbooks!
Joe Rankin

adam.won · 16 Jun 2005

I didn't write this, but i totally agree. this demonstrations and posturing by China, is % 99.0 for recent political issues. China is using the moral issue to be a bully on recent issues. Deep down, they are really do not care about WWII and the atrocities. Issues are;
-> Membership in United Nations
-> Small border disputes, based on Islands
-> Rubbing the nose of Japan, further, which is aggravated by the very vocal minority right-wing Japanese nationalist
-> Bulling Japan, to slow their leverage on the Taiwan issue

At least Japan is a democracy with no restrictions on access to
information abroad. Can you say that of Mainland/Communist China.

Democracy and no information transfer barriar? Meanning Concealing the facts of invasion in WWII?

yes , i really appreciate you telling such a funny story,thank you

TuskCracker · 16 Jun 2005

Meanning Concealing the facts of invasion in WWII?

WWII is one of the most well documented events in history. Nothing
has been concealed. Some people "live in the past", never able to
more forward.

lexico · 16 Jun 2005

JackInBox said:
WWII is one of the most well documented events in history. Nothing
has been concealed. Some people "live in the past", never able to
more forward.

Sorry, I have to disagree.
Well documented in the sense that many documents and witness accounts exist ? True, because it was a relatively recent event.
All declassified ? False.
All relevant records released ? False.

IJA's human experiment documents have not been released to the public in full.
Japanese gov't archives are known to keep certain 'sensitive' material under tight cap.
The explicit and implicit pressures from gov'tal and non-gov'tal orgs not to come forward with incriminationg evidence of IJA atrocities are ever more rampant in Japan today.

Remember when President Clinton publically apologized to the US citizens who were fed/injected radioactive isotopes for studying the effects of chemico-radioactivity ?
How long did it take for that to become public ?
It may be worth noting; working for ethical coherence will benefit US citizens (any people) in the long run.
Laxity thereof will eventually come back to haunt Americans (any people).
Help truth see the day; it is never lost labor, and it will enrich the bones. (Some old aphorism.)

qwertyu · 16 Jun 2005

Jack in Box,

What on earth gives you the authority to judge that victims [and their descendants] of Japanese WWII crimes against humanity are only pretending to protest against historical revisionism that erases the existence of those crimes????

Did the Japnese Army slaughter your entire family? Was your mom raped 30 times a day as a Comfort Woman by the JA at a military brothel? Did the JA perform live vivisection on your father?

Otherwise, put up EVIDENCE that 1. the recent protests were co-ordinated by the Chinese Govt. 2. that the victims don't mind that the heinous crimes against them are never acknowledged, 3. Japan never whitewashed its history or shut up.

And just who is rubbing whose noses here? Who is worshipping convicted war criminals, declaring their innocence? Who is saying that the slaughter of 20 million Asians is justified in a necessary war in "self-defense"? Who is putting out textbooks that almost all respectable historians [including American ones] deem a whitewash of historical misdeeds?

And yes, lies about WWII is a matter for both the aggressor and the victims. If Japan did not invade and kill its neighbours, then their history is very well their own business. We have repeated this AD NAUSEUM, this is shared history, not Japan's alone to twist and distort at will. The victims have an obligation to keep the truth alive and not buried, even when the aggressors seek to erase it.

qwertyu · 16 Jun 2005

And if you are quoting, please at least ensure the person you're quoting isn't an illiterate.

adam.won · 17 Jun 2005

WWII is one of the most well documented events in history. Nothing
has been concealed. Some people "live in the past", never able to
more forward.

I meant the evil purpose of invasion in WWII is concealed.I heard someone before saying that To invade China is to help them....

Japan is to conceal the evil purpose from their primary textbooks up to College's . That is to brainwash the students to understand that To fight against sb. is to help sb. .How can be safe for it to become a permanent member in UN Security Council?

qwertyu · 17 Jun 2005

If Japan wants to teach its young that the glorious WWII government did it in self-defense, was liberating Asia, was fighting Western Imperialism, was helping inferior Asians modernise, the victims of this heinous historical episode have every right to stand up and shout "It's not like that! It was evil, it was ugly! We suffered inhumanely!", because if it really was such a good thing, then it is a goal worth going after again, this time, "failure is not an option".

TuskCracker · 18 Jun 2005

Sniping Between China, Japan Escalates....

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My theme stands (note: My father came from Germany. Grew up on the border of Germany and Poland. Almost all his relatives were lost to the concentration camps. Only two survived besides himself. Most lived in Poland).

Some people "live in the past", never able to more forward.

p.s: my father's family left germany and went to Shanghai China in the 1930's, eventually coming to America (via China, Egypt, Bolivia). I also had my daughter just come back from 3 weeks of research, in Central China (via tokyo)

adam.won · 18 Jun 2005

JackinBox said:
my father's family left germany and went to Shanghai China in the 1930's, eventually coming to America (via China, Egypt, Bolivia).

In 1930's , China is suffering all kinds of wars ,civil and Japanese invasion , it's somewhat a popular action to go to America and live there.

JackinBox said:
Some people "live in the past", never able to more forward.

Yes, Living in the past is so bad , but after that ,if everyone said you're so weak , just not able to complain at least , come on guys , I will beat you all and setup another country!! Where's their boldness to invade such a country,I think you may be not very clear about the cause of invasion in China .China was invaded by 8-country alliance army in 1899 and 1900 .

THE CAUSE IS JUST THE FOOLISH FORGIVENESS AND YIELDING TO THE FOREIGN COUNTRIES . WE SHOULD LEARN THE HISTORY AND HAVE A BETTER IDEA ABOUT FUTURE.

TuskCracker · 18 Jun 2005

In 1930's , China is suffering all kinds of wars ,civil and Japanese invasion , it's somewhat a popular action to go to America and live there.

He was in a very German family running from Nazism.

I just wish, and I do wish, that we (me, you, chinese-other, japanese-others, koreans-others, british, australians) we all come from dynamic modern cultures, would discuss issues and learn new ideas and opionons without a fight. Mabye get to understand each other better. My daughter just spent 3 weeks in the heartland of China (Wuhan city, Qingdao, and Beijing), and 3 days in Tokyo/Yokohama. I wonder if many people on this forum aren't interested to hear what a very American college girl thought of China (and Tokyo). I bother her to no end, by e-mail and phone, on what she thought.

qwertyu · 18 Jun 2005

What makes you think that it's the Chinese and Koreans who aren't "putting this behind them"? Do you think that the Japanese who are trying to rewrite their history and overturn the historical judgement passed by the Alliance are not doing the very same thing? Go to Yasukunin Shrine's website. Why don't you just tell them to stop dwelling on the past and to "put this behind them"? To quit whitewashing history? Because to continuously attempting to revise the past is certainly NOT accepting the past.

Why are your condemnations entirely one-sided AGAINST the victims, when both are doing the past-digging?

You might have your own history with the Germans, but Germany dealt with its past completely differently from the Japanese, so you can't speak for the Asian Holocaust victims who have never had their sufferings acknowledged. I know some of their descendants, their pain is REAL. In Germany, almost everything Japan has been doing would be illegal. The Germans EARNED the respect, friendship and trust of their former victims by ensuring that they fulfilled their responsibility. Denial of Nazi atrocities is a crime. They don't glorify their top war criminals. They don't revise their history texts to paint their aggression as self-defense and liberation of their victims. They paid 3 times in war reparations to their victims what Japan gave in aid, even though the Germans killed far less.

Leave the victims alone to do whatever they feel they have to do to redress what they feel is an enormous injustice, be it to sue in Japan's courts or to protest in the streets. Even if they have fallen on deaf ears for the past 60 years. What they are doing can't even be compared to the suffering they have endured.

Don't insult them by telling them that their feelings are fake and just a cynical political ploy, as this is exactly what their tormentors are saying to them to avoid confronting the uncomfortable truths.

You are a father, how would you feel if your daughter is brutally hurt by some criminals and she is angry that her tormentors got away with a slap on the wrist, continue to taunt her and then some stupid callous outsider tells her to "just get over it already!" or suggest to her that she is using her victimhood as an excuse for whatever failure in her life?

Please!

And if you are a good father, you should teach your daughter the value of compassion and empathy.

TuskCracker · 19 Jun 2005

And if you are a good father, you should teach your daughter the value of compassion and empathy

Don't preach to me. You went from recent travel impressions, to issues of WWII.

That leap made no sense at all, its complete ramble. I give up.

_.

Tonysoong · 20 Jun 2005

I know what your daughter has on mind about China when she feels that she has come to understand China after spending couple of weeks touring 3 of its cities. Did she tell you that the Chinese well deserve the WW2 Japanese atrocities? Jack, i am so glad that your family successfully escaped Nazi Germany so that you are not blood-tied to the German atrocities. So you are always feeling cool and detached when some of us here are seeking to heal or to be healed.

qwertyu · 20 Jun 2005

>Don't preach to me. You went from recent travel impressions, to issues of WWII.

Huh? When did I go from recent travel impressions to issues of WWII? You posted and quoted one of the most offensive and insulting pieces to Chinese WWII victims, suggesting that their protests are unfounded, politically motivated and fake, and I am countering your nasty assertions. I did not even mention any "travels" accounts, which tend to be highly personal anyway.

If you "give up" posting these stupid allegations that blame only the victims and not the aggressor for the post-WWII tensions, that's great by me. If you post such offensive material, then expect to feel some heat.

qwertyu · 20 Jun 2005

I went back and read your post again. It is even more offensive the more carefully I read it.

didn't write this, but i totally agree. this demonstrations and posturing by China, is % 99.0 for recent political issues. China is using the moral issue to be a bully on recent issues. Deep down, they are really do not care about WWII and the atrocities.

They might live in a country that is nominally communist with a central one-party government but they are also HUMAN BEINGS able to feel pain when their WWII tormentors try to erase this dirty history, wipe out the account of their collective suffering, reverse the judgement of history and insist on the war criminals' innocence and greatness. Geesh!

qwertyu · 20 Jun 2005

And I am not preaching to you. I don't imagine that I can ever change anyone's biased mind, least of all yours. However, everyone has every right to counter-argue any prejudiced and unsubstantiated allegations on this forum, and that's what I'm doing.

TuskCracker · 21 Jun 2005

>Don't preach to me. You went from recent travel impressions, to issues of WWII.

Three posting to yourself. Says something

qwertyu · 21 Jun 2005

To myself? This is strange. Every one of my post addresses your posts. It doesn't matter if you read them, but if these unfounded, denigrating allegations are out there, and no matter who post them, they need to be countered.

Here's another one. Many moms who lost their sons and daughters in Iraq are now the most vociferous protestors against this war. Are they "doing it 99% for political reasons and using the issue to bully George Bush because deep down, they really don't care about their [and others'] children's deaths????"

Such a statement would be like a slap to the face to those who have suffered horrible losses. Even if you are a war supporter, I'm sure you would agree that it would be exceedingly indecent to fling such a dehumanising accusation at these mothers. You demean and negate the suffering and loss of a group of people and accrue ignoble intentions to them simply because they are Chinese.

TuskCracker · 23 Jun 2005

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I can count.

Go to a closest and talk to yourself, three posting to yourself. Self-absorbed and self ..... you finish the sentence.

qwertyu
20-06-05, 05:23
20-06-05, 05:32
20-06-05, 05:36

qwertyu · 23 Jun 2005

Enlighten me. Is there a rule on this Forum AGAINST posting in succession? Is it a crime to have separate thoughts and to post them separately? I guess in the warped universe of Jack In Box, it is, since even protesting against revisionism and whitewashing of heinous war crimes is but a form of bullying by the victims.

As for the closet, I shudder to think what your children might have had to endure, but no thanks, I'll pass.

For someone who inexplicably, repeatedly accuses others of "posting to themselves" when in fact, they are addressing YOUR highly offensive posts/arguments/allegations, you seem to have nothing to add other than a bizarre obsession with my posting in sucession. This is beyond stupid. Sayonara.

TuskCracker · 23 Jun 2005

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Posting repeatedly is equivalent of someone talking to themselves, and not letting the others respond. Will never get along. The forums could be used to understand and learn from each other. Its more for internet-trolls, and angry-spitefull people to vent and rage.

Bramicus · 9 Jul 2005

The Japan of over 60 years ago committed extraordinarily brutal and horrific mass murders of Chinese people. It is said they murdered up to 250,000 Chinese people for helping the American survivors of Jimmy Doolittle's raid on Tokyo alone. And that was just one incident, and that was just in China -- the brutal occupation encompassed much of eastern Asia.

On the other hand, those who committed those crimes are mostly dead, and certainly do not control and are not representative of Japan's people or government today. Furthermore, it is curious to me how furious the Chinese are that Japanese officials go visit a shrine that is not dedicated to, but merely includes the burial sites of Japanese war criminals, while at the same time, I'm told, the Chinese government officially keeps up what amounts to a (nonreligious, of course) public shrine to Mao Tse-tung (Mao Zedong), one of the greatest mass murderers of all time, who is said to have been responsible for the deaths of up to 70-80 million Chinese people -- a number that dwarfs even the hideous atrocities committed by the Japanese during their occupation of China.

Shaoshan, China

washingtonpost; Sniping Between China, Japan Escalates

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