U.S. Forces in Japan: time to say good-bye?

[kirei_na_me]

It really bothers me when people say war is good for business. A lot of my friends say that. And "as long as US casualties are minimal in comparison?"? I might be in the minority, but I don't want any casualties. I don't want casualties for us and don't want us causing anyone else casualties.

Maybe that's a really unrealistic view, though. I'm such a pacifist.

 

[kokusu]

First, having the U.S. stationed in Japan is part of Japan's defense/military strategy. So, when it is argued that the U.S. should get out of Japan so that Japan can freely come up with its only military defense strategy, I argue that Japan already has come up with a defense strategy: rely on the U.S.!:lol:

And, really, this is absolutely a smart thing, too! Consider:

1) If the U.S. pulled out of Japan and left Japan's regional security concerns up to Japan itself to fulfill, Japan would inarguably have to increase the size and strength of its military. This, would exacerbate versus alleviate regional tensions, as very few of Japan's neighbors want a militarily stronger Japan.

2) Form a regional alliance to counterbalance China with who?!? Both Korea's, Russia, Viet Nam, Pakistan, and numerous other regional powers are distrustful of Japan (for more information on why, go get a history book about WWII).

3) The U.S. has its own regional concerns in Asia. A U.S. presence insures involvement and a modicum of stability (realist school of political theory). Let's not forget that despite recent troubles, the U.S. is still the big kid on the international playground. Sometimes the big kid can make the other kids toe the line. Besides, if, as you say, everyone hates the U.S., if you are Japan, wouldn't you want a U.S. presence in Asia to take some of the heat off yourself???

The U.S. really has too much vested interest in the region to just let Japan get demolished if things came to blows (for example, commercial trade, computer technologies, Pinky ST. collectible figures :blush: ). This being regardless of whichever idiot happens to be in the White House.

Japan has long surpassed America in quality automobiles, consumer electronics, cameras, etc. Japan has gone from copying to innovating. Those are achievements that are evidence that Japan can easily surpass China militarily.

Let me get this straight: Japan makes really good cameras and video games so they could easily clobber China in a miltary conflict? Are you freakin' kidding me? Does a population of 120 million versus 1.5 billion come into play anywhere in your thinking? I mean, that's a lot of rolls of film to shoot if you are Japan . . .:souka:

And make no mistake about it, China's goal is to destroy both Japan and Taiwan! And America!

Riiight . . . because they don't want to have markets to sell to. And because they don't want any more U.S. grain to help feed their swollen population. And because why retake control of Taiwan when you can really prove your point and just wipe it off the map?
And, hey, why stop with Japan, Taiwan, and the U.S.? I bet China just wants to destroy the whole world . . .:evil:

AUGH!!! This is the nuttiest thread . . .:auch: :lol:

 

[lastmagi]

If you want to see crazy-destructive power, check this out.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27590

Where did he get such power?

 

[Akakubisan]

I am a left-wing liberal, and George W. Bush is not my president. That fool is NOT my leader! Finally, the American people--according to the latest polls--are awakening to what I knew when the first Bush was president. HE AND HIS CRIMINAL GANG CAN'T BE TRUSTED!

I like that, it's almost funny. Unfortunately the U.S. is a democracy and if you are a U.S. citizen BUSH is your president. If you don't like that then you can fix that in 2008 with the next election. It's called voting.

 

[mobeen]

I definately think America should pull out of japan and i am pray that one day they do. The Bush hiearchy is coming to a collapse. If you live in the US and flip to the news channels you hear that democrats and now even republicans are against the president on the iraq war and now more americans are aware than before. I think this will definately affect the positions of american soldiers in all countries. Not only japan.

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Yes, the USA has no business in Asia and yes, Bush is a megalomaniac and I wouldn't trust him with anything least of all my country or anyone else's. The US should have been out of Asia a long time ago but now there's a problem keeping it from leaving. Because the US did not leave when it should it's stayed in so long that dependency has built up and as someone pointed out the huge gap in security that would happen after the US pulled out would get taken advantage of causing the very thing we're trying to avoid here. War in Asia. So it's a lose/lose situation. If the US stays Asia loses and if it leaves Asia still loses.
The US SHOULD have long ago allowed Japan to defend itself by itself, slowly building back up it's strength enough so that it would not get crushed once the US pulled out. But the US government is made up of power hungry, bickering, politicians who in all honesty don't give a damn. The US has become greedy and quite comfortable with it's little nest it's made itself in Asia, it's extortion. What started as a means of protection has turned into the very thing it was originally designed to protect against. The US has become the very kind of nation that it's supposed to stand against. We've becoming flaming control freaks. We're using our positions in Asia and around the world not for the countries' protection but our on profit. For some reason the US seems to think that everything other countries do is our business and that we should have a say in it. Wrong. But now the threat of a real problem in Asia is surfacing and the US is stuck in it's own glue. It's going to be a real mess if something doesn't change soon. The problem is that were politics is concerned nothing in the way of a change like this happens quickly. Because the process gets bogged down by the stupid politicians who as a law of nature cannot agree on anything. So by the time the USA gets it's s**t together it'll probably be way, way too late.
I'm not completely sure what I just said made any sense at all but oh well. I'm tired and I'm so sick of this whole situation and the world's stupidity in gen.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

It Would Be Interesting.......

to see what would happen if the US pulled out of South Korea. I wonder how long it would take for the North's army to move into our abandoned bases? I think they call such things "power vacumes" ?

Frank

:souka:

 

[lastmagi]

But the US government is made up of power hungry, bickering, politicians who in all honesty don't give a damn. The US has become greedy and quite comfortable with it's little nest it's made itself in Asia, it's extortion. What started as a means of protection has turned into the very thing it was originally designed to protect against. The US has become the very kind of nation that it's supposed to stand against. We've becoming flaming control freaks.

I'm starting to think (well, I've been thinking for a while, actually) that the whole world is undergoing some new Dark Age, what with leaders like Bush and Koizumi running around.

 

[Doc]

I'm starting to think (well, I've been thinking for a while, actually) that the whole world is undergoing some new Dark Age, what with leaders like Bush and Koizumi running around.

That is why I say McCain should have been President. At least he is a man who cares about his country, its people, and the world's interest for that matter, plus he is a Republican too! He believes we need to stop oil consumption, save the envirnoment, stop depending on China, and various other apects that both the world and America are concerned with. Oh well at least the problems will not last that much longer. With the heat on the White House in full swing, I have the funny feeling Bush is going to get impeached before the end of his second term. Hey we should do it like what Al Frankin suggested. Elect the new Congress in 2007, have them in session in 2008 just two weeks before the new President takes office (which will be a Democrat no doubt), impeach Bush and get him fired, arrested, and started drinking again in the same afternoon.

Doc :wave:

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. Too bad it isn't that simple. *sighs*

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I feel extremely sorry for the poor people from Iraq, they pay the bill of this horrible war in their own country. When I see Iraq on TV I could really cry for all those poor people overthere. They have every right to hate us all.

I often wish that the government of my country (The Netherlands) had been so wise as the French, German, Belgium and the Spanish governments, they refused to join Mr.G.W.Bush.
We have enough troubles in Europe, let's mind our own business.

 

[Hyde_is_my_anti-drug]

Amen! It makes me physically sick when I see or hear about Iraq. That's why I've stopped watching TV and reading the Newspaper.

 

[Doc]

I feel extremely sorry for the poor people from Iraq, they pay the bill of this horrible war in their own country.

Actually we are the ones who have to pay for the bill. Once our troops pull out there is going to be god only knows hundreds of billions of dollars to be spent just to help build up Iraq's economy so they can get out of the rut of being a third world country. We have already spent over $321 billion just to help build up their military, and a grand total of over $500 billion just to help rebuild cities, the governement, the economy, and the suffering of all the vicitims and their families over there. So I would not be so quick to judge that once America pulls out of Iraq that the Iraqi people are on their own. We are going to have to help support them for probably 20-50 more years down the road politically and economically to help their country. Guess who has to pay for all of that? The taxpayers that's who. Now while most Americans would gladly help Iraq, you have to keep in mind that our defecit is the highest this country has seen. Plus we have to help restore Louisana, and all the areas ruined during Hurricane Katrina and Rita. What I am getting to is that all of this activity is exhausting the United States and we are going to end up like Europe if do not watch it.

You also have to keep in mind that Bush did not give Congress all the intelligence that they wanted when deciding to invade Iraq. Bush gets all of the intelligence information before anybody else does, and decides on what Congress should hear and not hear. While they heard that Saddam had WMDs (he has for over 20 years and if you do not think so then you have another thing coming), it is just that the intelligence was some of the worst intelligence ever. The document proving that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 was a forged letter from an Italian. Everything else is on the word of a drunkard and other piss poor intelligence. So should America have gone in there? No. Should we pull out. Absolutely. Should we do it now. No. We have to finish what we started, and that is going to take time. BTW why are we grilling Bush anyway? I think the person we need to be complaining about the most here is Chaney. That jerkoff is the reason why we are in this war in the first place. He has spread more lies, slander, and inaccurate information to get America in this war that he is worse than Bush, but just does not come off of as much.

Personally I think Bush just wanted to finish what his Daddy started, but that is just me. Also whether you agree or not, Saddam did need to be taken out of power. The man was evil and raped, tortured, gased, executed, and god only knows what else to his own people. However, I really do not think he was the next Hitler. If anything I think we should be worrying about the psychos in Africa, Europe, and Asia more than anything. Better yet I think we should be worrying about our own people first. This world's police crap has got to stop. However, I would like to point out that when we do isolate ourselves from the world who comes crying to us when terrorism or something else horrible has run amok? Us that's who. Maybe we should start declining to help everybody in the world, maybe then you would change your attitude about America being an evil country. Look all I am saying is that Congress and the White House started this mess, and it has come down the American people wanting to fix this. Hey we are just as much victims as everybody else is, just not such an extreme scale that's all.

I cannot wait until Bush is out of office. You do release a Democrat will get in, and Congress will have a major overhaul too. It is just going to be funny to watch the Republicans implode before the next general election. The burracracy is just horrible anymore in this country. No wonder people do not vote anymore (although I think if you do not vote on the people who should be in office then you are an idiot for thinking that not voting is going to make a world of difference). Campaign ads are ruthless anymore, and politicians will do anything for money. You know maybe things should more like Missouri where the people elect the politician based on merit and not by who has the best political stance. Maybe then we might get something done in this country. *sigh* Bottom line is the whole issue is a giant mess, and Bush going to other countries looking for support when everybody in his own country hates him isn't helping much. (He has spent less time at the White House than any other president in our history. Not only that, but you think a 36% approval rating might suggesting something, especially for Congress with theirs in the mid to low 20's.) He shouldn't have told off the UN, the EU, or NATO for doing what he wanted to do. I think that is reason enough to show that we will never elect another president from Texas for another 250 years. People just need to take action in this country, otherwise nothing will ever get done.

Doc :wave:

 

[Pachipro]

Unfortunately the U.S. is a democracy and if you are a U.S. citizen BUSH is your president.

Contrary to what most people think the US is NOT a democracy. It is a Representative Republic as the forefathers wanted. A goverment by the people for the people. Unfortunately most people don't realize that today. In the Pledge of Alligence is the line "And to the Republic for which it stands..." How many times have you heard a politician refer to the US as a Republic? Almost never. And it is scary.

On the other hand a democracy is just mob rule. Is that what we are exporting to other countries? Mob rule?

 

[Doc]

And do not forget the first lines of the United States of America's Consitiution.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this CONSTITUTION for the United States of America."

What does that tell you? That we the American people are the governement, and elect people by the people to help ensure to keep the governement (the American people) in order and running. Yet instead we have let our power as the governement go to the elected officials instead and have become their slave, rather than them doing what we say. Isn't it ironic? In crude terms I want the government to be my ***** like it was, not the other way around. The buracracy has got to stop, or at least be lessened. Anyway kudos to you Pachipro for pointing out that we are indeed a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC not a democracy, as you pointed out mob rule never works (like with Rome). There is to the reason why we are a republic, but I think that civics lesson if for another time.

Doc :wave:

 

[Ma Cherie]

Here's another problem, Bush has also kept the white house isolated. My Political Science professor has pointed out that he doesn't read newspapers, books, and it doesnt' seem like he seeks outside sources on pretty much everything (that would explain why he ignored those economists on the issue of tax cuts :kaioken: ). It also seems that he's only oppointing people that would appeal to his conservative base. So, there goes the diversity.kashii: And he appoints people he knows, (i.e. the head of FEMA, Harriet Miers, etc.). To me, those people are nothing but cronies. Yeah, I know this is a bit off topic:sorry:

 

[Doc]

Unlike most administrations, it is said that this administration knows the answer to everything before it is even asked. Hell they don't even have any meetings to discuss issues! You see the Bush administration has had an agenda since day one, and they have been following through this agenda despite national and international protest. I think you have to keep in mind that Bush really is not pulling all the strings here. It is a few higher ups in the administration running the show. We need to start focusing our attention on the administration as a whole rather than just the President. I think only then will you get to bottom of all of this.

Doc :wave:

 

[nurizeko]

China, Japan, and America are so economically involved and heavily invested in each other that a war with each other would see the economic ruin of all 3 countries.
Its no secret that economics and trade are much more desirable in this day and age then petty old-school land-grabs.

Taiwan is part of china, say what you will, most taiwanese are chinese, many of them are of mainland origin, infact, all if your willing to allow them to trace as far back as the first chinese settlers.
If you pay attention to chinese history its no suprise the mainland china holds a firm claim over taiwan, in effect it could be argued china and taiwan are still in a state of civil war, ever since the communists and nationalists first started fighting.

In regards to japan invading okinawa, if i remember correctly, okinawa is part of japan.
It was part of japan lnog before the war and continues to be so now, bar the breif period of american administration.

In short, american bases, though probably unwanted by a number of japanese, are in japan for a reason or two, and are better off there then gone, likewise, china isnt on the verge of conquering the world, pay less attention to taiwan propaganda Tv or something and and spend more on you know, reality.

 

[Mike Cash]

In short, american bases, though probably unwanted by a number of japanese, are in japan for a reason or two

Let's strive for a little consistency. Didn't I just read in another thread your blanket statement that the Japanese all want the bases gone, yet the Japanese government ignores the wishes of the entire voting nation?

 

[Carlson]

First, I will say that Japan brought its problems on itself, when it bombed Pearl Harbor. Also, Japan had no business invading China, Okinawa, the Philippines, and the numerous other countries. Also, Japan was guilty of attrocities toward civilians and prisoners of war.

im not going to bother giving a long speach... just going to say that Japan has done nothing that America has not done or any other super power in the past.

 

[yukio_michael]

Confirm or deny? Okinawans are more endeared to the Americans there than they are to the Japanese mainlanders....? Americans are currently stationed in Okinawa , whom also feel that the rest of Japan should share the "burden" of housing US Military bases--- However, I have read that due to racial tensions in the past, and slights from mainland Japan, Okinawa feels closer to it's American occupants than to Japan.
Has anyone else read this?

 

[klepman_1971]

they definatly should leave from japan, it makes me sick that there are american forces in japan.

 

[klepman_1971]

Confirm or deny? Okinawans are more endeared to the Americans there than they are to the Japanese mainlanders....? Americans are currently stationed in Okinawa, whom also feel that the rest of Japan should share the "burden" of housing US Military bases--- However, I have read that due to racial tensions in the past, and slights from mainland Japan, Okinawa feels closer to it's American occupants than to Japan.
Has anyone else read this?

dont believe everything u read

 

[DoctorP]

dont believe everything u read

Can I at least believe the things that I see?

Do you believe that Japan has legal right to control OKinawa?

 

[nurizeko]

I believe japan has a legal right to all its current territories (and those islands held by russia) and that even though the americans should always remember they are guests in the country and the japanese have their own governments and decisions on your stay in their country, if the japanese are wanting the americans out, they should at least spare a thought for why the americans there there in the first place, and the consiquences for japan without the americans defence presence.

Ive been thinknig about the american presence here since i laid eyes on the distinctively coloured yokata airbase buildings and its perimeter fence, and though i wouldnt like the US presence in my country, the UK isnt facing any threat from mainland europe, but thanks to the near history of asian politics, japan cannot claim to be entirely safe from threat, as chinese frothing out the mouth over japans war-time actions show, so.

Saying that, i wonder how america would react in the most unlikely event the japanese decided the americans should leave.

No doubt america would put sanctions and treat japan much like any other rogue state, few countries get to escape the "your either with us or against us" foreign policy.

That is not in japans interests either.

As such, i say it isnt time for the US forces to leave japan, though i dont claim to support american presence as a principal in other peoples countries, the fact of reality is that sometimes these things cannot be helped, and indeed, serve the interests of a country better then with their absence, america may behave a bit roughly now and then, but, america is still a good ally of most of the western world, and still stands for freedoms and democracy, even if sometimes people feel it is misguided.

But also, Americans shoould always remember that they are guests in this and other countries, and that when they step beyond the gates of their base, they are under the full weight and jurisdiction of that countries laws, and as such they are fully responsible for their own conduct.

As a foreign visitor without such military affiliations, i am under the same expectations.
Also, it may be no secret that as a US serviceman, i might be treated more harshly if i was to commit an offence, to serve an example.

Hopefully though japanese and americans will continue to maintain a tolerant friendly attitude towards each other.

The US presence here is here for the forseeable future until the japanese government or US administration sees fit to withdraw the bases.