deathtokanji
後輩
- 8 Oct 2007
- 9
- 0
Japan has the manpower, the technical skill and the wealth to care for themselves. We can't babysit them forever because we fear they will repeat 1931-1945.
U.S. Forces in Japan: time to say good-bye?
- Thread starter thomas
- Start date
Sukotto
先輩
- 9 Jul 2003
- 1,426
- 20
My posts were about Japan, "US forces in Japan".
As this thread is titled.
"Is it time for US Force to leave Japan?"
yes? no? maybe?
But also why?
Japan and the eastern Asia are not in a bubble.
So I posted some things as to why I believe things are the way they are.
Why should I support moveon.org which supported the pro-war John Kerry or Hillary Clinton who has stated US troops may be in Iraq even at the end of her four year term if she is elected?
So the other right-wing of the one big corporate imperial war ruling party that runs the empire doesn't look like it will get out of Iraq any time soon.
This may not hold well for the people of Okinawa .
It is unlikely they would support an end to occupation of land at Okinawa either.
On the other hand, ending an imperial outpost at Okinawa (and such changes are typically do not happen because of some sort of enlightened leader but by the work of ordinary people) might just hasten the end of the illegal, criminal occupation of Iraq and also maybe empire.
If I say Okinawa is an imperial outpost of empire,
and X reasons are why it should end,
I believe that is perfectly legitimate within the framework of this thread.
So I give reasons for why I believe empire.
The war of aggression on the people of Iraq is one piece of evidence of that.
One may disagree with the strength of evidence and that is fine.
- 20 Aug 2003
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So, you really didn't answer my question.
First of all, don't use the NUMBER of crimes committed by anyone (soldiers or civilians). That is a poor way of comparing. Use PERCENTAGES. For example, I can show you a web site made by Okinawans who actually try to prove that the military there should be removed (for one reason) because they commit so MANY crimes. Key word is MANY (ie, a NUMBER). Yes, they do, but if you compare the PERCENTAGE of crimes that many people commit with the PERCENTAGE committed by Japanese, you will see that the US crime count is lower. So, in essence, the Japanese people are more criminal in nature than the US military. But, just because the (admittedly stupid) soldiers go out and commit crimes in a foreign land, they are more open to the media exposure.
By the way, in relation to another of your points above, just how many Japanese Self-defense positions are there around the world anyway? The USA is practically everywhere, so once again, going by sheer NUMBERS, you will see something different compared to the Japanese military abroad.
If so, they would have to add Japan as the 51st state in that category.
Last edited:
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
Japan dont go around torturing Arabs for a start or bomb civilians and send illiterate 18 year olds to gang rape 12 year olds.
- 21 May 2003
- 14,310
- 4,404
Hummm???
Looks like centrajapan has forgot what the US did for his country and it's ruling family during WWII. You might be goose-stepping and saying sigheil if the US hadn't been around to pull Norway's feet out of the fire back then. But I guess remembering the good things the US did doesn't fit your hate hard-on for the US now. It seems the only people you hate more than Americans , are the anti-whaling group.
Grandpa Frank
kashii:
Looks like centrajapan has forgot what the US did for his country and it's ruling family during WWII. You might be goose-stepping and saying sigheil if the US hadn't been around to pull Norway's feet out of the fire back then. But I guess remembering the good things the US did doesn't fit your hate hard-on for the US now. It seems the only people you hate more than Americans , are the anti-whaling group.
Grandpa Frank
kashii:
- 20 Aug 2003
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- 416
No, but they did sign the 1995 international treaty against human rights discrimination, yet...
they have yet (12 years later, mind you) to enact a single law to uphold that treaty. They brush off such a statement by saying it would be "hard to enforce." What is the point in signing the treaty, then?! All it does is make Japan look like a hypocrite.
Meanwhile, companies are allowed to put up "Japanese Only" signs, magazines are allowed to publish outrageous issues citing "gaijin crime", foreign teachers are not given the same contracts as their Japanese counterparts with identical credentials, Prime Ministers continue to visit Yasukuni Shrine, government officials acknowledge then deny the existence of comfort women, seals get citizenship (yes!) while permanent residents have to be fingerprinted upon their return from an overseas trip (and are still called "visitors"), it takes decades before the government even admits to treating its own citizens (lepers in this case) horribly, allows criminals like Fujimori to enter the country but won't let some spouses of Japanese go through the same line in immigration, etc.
One does not have to bomb civilians, torture prisoners, or rape children to be labeled a human rights violator. But then again, as Grandpa Frank alluded to, there was the Nanking massacre and military Unit 731 and comfort women... so I guess there was bomnbing, torture, and rape in Japan's black history after all, too.
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
While I think many in Europe are thankful fr American sacrficies I doubt most Europeans go around believeing if it wasn for Americans Europe would still have been under Nazi occupation. Besides in Norway if we are to be accurate there were no Americans. It was the Russians who liberated Norway.
But still, this does not give them a green light to do what they have been doing the past 60 years.
The crimes which Japan comits are far less than what US does. Good to get some perspective here. I will agree that Japan has lots of faults but again compared with USA they are minute.
I hope Americans will leave Japan one day. And a person who volunterily joins Uncle Sam neends to get their head examined.
TuskCracker
後輩
- 17 Jan 2004
- 531
- 14
Is It time for US Forces to leave Japan ?
-
I hope so. I am American, I am tired of my tax's (my hard earned money) goes to helping other countries.
Like stopping "ethnic slaughter" in Southern Europe. The killings of Bosnia/Kosovo/Srebenicia_Bosnia
What was the Srebenicia_Bosnia killings in Europe in July-1995. Was it 8,000 murdered, or was it more ? Didn't "Dutch" troops stand and watch !
.
-
I hope so. I am American, I am tired of my tax's (my hard earned money) goes to helping other countries.
Like stopping "ethnic slaughter" in Southern Europe. The killings of Bosnia/Kosovo/Srebenicia_Bosnia
What was the Srebenicia_Bosnia killings in Europe in July-1995. Was it 8,000 murdered, or was it more ? Didn't "Dutch" troops stand and watch !
.
- 20 Aug 2003
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Do you even live in Japan (like I do)? Why are we comparing crimes in the US and Japan? This is a Japan forum, and we ought to be discussing issues relevant to this country, not comparing to others like that. Poor debating strategy.
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
us millitary famous for gang rapes, murdering taxi drivers for some spare change, murdering old people for some spare change, crashing helicopters into school buildings. yes, these fine people sure do give usa an even better reputaion than they have now. americans must be proud.
- 1 Nov 2005
- 446
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centrajapan,
Like you I am a European. But I lived in Indonesia when the Japanese occupied that part of the world. So I was set free by the British!
Holland was set free by Americans, but also by Canadians, British and Dutch ( who lived in London during the war).
That is history.
Today, the president of the US is disliked by many people from all over the world.
But this doesn't give us the right to judge all Americans.
I am quite certain that the Americans wil chose the right man/woman to be their next President.
Americans leaving Okinawa? What do the people from Okinawa prefer? As an outsider I guess that it has to be their choice, their vote, that is the most important. Not so?
Like you I am a European. But I lived in Indonesia when the Japanese occupied that part of the world. So I was set free by the British!
Holland was set free by Americans, but also by Canadians, British and Dutch ( who lived in London during the war).
That is history.
Today, the president of the US is disliked by many people from all over the world.
But this doesn't give us the right to judge all Americans.
I am quite certain that the Americans wil chose the right man/woman to be their next President.
Americans leaving Okinawa? What do the people from Okinawa prefer? As an outsider I guess that it has to be their choice, their vote, that is the most important. Not so?
They are govenment officials, not civilians like you.
If you want to say "the Japanese people are more criminal", just compare the crime rate of civilian in each country.
The source is from the communist paper, Akahata, but the original source is the official one from Defense Facilities Administration Agency.
Accidents on duty should not be in this topic, though the fewer, the better.
Their resident status is the official one, so it is rare that they are handed down to the police except serious crimes.
It is up to you whether it is just small or not. And probably the death number does include traffic-related deaths, I think.
Accidents on duty should not be in this topic, though the fewer, the better.
Their resident status is the official one, so it is rare that they are handed down to the police except serious crimes.
It is up to you whether it is just small or not. And probably the death number does include traffic-related deaths, I think.
- 18 Jan 2005
- 11,682
- 3,643
Besides it.:auch:
Wednesday, October 10, 2007
A son of a U.S. soldier was arrested,
He raped a woman.
[Okinawa]
He hits a woman (22) of an employee in a restaurant in Okinawa-shi,
And he raped her.
On October 9,
"Kevin L Parks" (21) without an occupation that a criminal lives in Okinawa U.S. air force Kadena base
The police arrested him on the suspicion of a rape.
He accepts a crime.
In the investigation,
October 1
From 4:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m.,
In a restaurant,
To the female employee who demanded eating and drinking rate, he hit her with beer pot.
He blocked up a tongue so that she cannot give a voice, and he raped her.
And he escaped.
The woman was injured seriously.
Okinawa Police were based on a portrait of the suspect from witness testimony of other restaurant employees and found the suspect in cooperation with a criminal investigation agency of the United States Armed Forces.
Because he did testimony to accept a crime, the police arrested him.
He was going to go back to a U.S. own country on October 1.
On October 9,
When an investigator of Okinawa Police demanded arbitrary going together from the suspect from home in Kadena base,
He prepared an escape.
Mother of a suspect,
The captain who works in Kadena base.
http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/day/200710101700_04.html
Many Japanese do not know this incident,
Besides Okinawa,
Because it is not broadcasted in news.
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
There was an incident in Yokosuka where one person from the US millitary broke into a house. When the person woke up he started beating him to death then took some spare change so that he could go out and drink. You don't hear much about English teachers breaking into someones homes and beating them up to death.
Yankee should go home.
To the people who voted they protect Japan. They don't know much do they? They can protect Japan as much as they want from US. It doesn't make a slightest difference. NATO countries have this policy one for all all for one. Yet most NATO countries do not. I repeat Do Not have US millitary bases.
Yankee should go home.
To the people who voted they protect Japan. They don't know much do they? They can protect Japan as much as they want from US. It doesn't make a slightest difference. NATO countries have this policy one for all all for one. Yet most NATO countries do not. I repeat Do Not have US millitary bases.
- 1 Nov 2005
- 446
- 39
America was always orientated on Asia/Pacific. When WWII started in Europe, America looked away. When the war in the Far East started, the European colonies became the
Allieds from America. After the war America let all those Europeans in the Far East down, hence the San Francisco Treaty.
Meaning: Europeans out and Americans in Asia. You may call it politics.
Allieds from America. After the war America let all those Europeans in the Far East down, hence the San Francisco Treaty.
Meaning: Europeans out and Americans in Asia. You may call it politics.
centrajapan
先輩
- 16 Sep 2007
- 715
- 11
Europe had no business in Asia. I am glad they went home and so should US.
- 1 Nov 2005
- 446
- 39
Yes centrajapan,
Business, Oil and Politics is still making the world turn around. The President of America has already warned us for a WWIII.
Colinial countries in Asia and Africa were considered normal before WWII. Japan also had Korea and Formosa (today) Taiwan as a colony.
Now in 2007 we don't want anymore colonies and that is of course how it should be!
Yet I still think that the Europeans have left their colonies in Asia to early and too all of a sudden. I guess that it would have been better if we could have stayed on after the war to build up the destroyed colonial countries during WWII.
Just 5 more years and everything would have been much better.
I belief in working together, East and West. Different cultures are no problem if we both give and take.
I have a son and a daughter adopted from India, I don't feel any difffrense between us.
Funny thing is that my children from Asia grew up in Europe, and I who came from Europe as a small child, grew up in the Far East.
Business, Oil and Politics is still making the world turn around. The President of America has already warned us for a WWIII.
Colinial countries in Asia and Africa were considered normal before WWII. Japan also had Korea and Formosa (today) Taiwan as a colony.
Now in 2007 we don't want anymore colonies and that is of course how it should be!
Yet I still think that the Europeans have left their colonies in Asia to early and too all of a sudden. I guess that it would have been better if we could have stayed on after the war to build up the destroyed colonial countries during WWII.
Just 5 more years and everything would have been much better.
I belief in working together, East and West. Different cultures are no problem if we both give and take.
I have a son and a daughter adopted from India, I don't feel any difffrense between us.
Funny thing is that my children from Asia grew up in Europe, and I who came from Europe as a small child, grew up in the Far East.
- 20 Aug 2003
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No, soldiers are not government "officials". They are government employees = servants.
I wrote what I did because the Okinawans have put up a web site that tried to compare the US military crimes there with Okinawan citizens. Not me, the Okinawans put this up. Compare crime rates as I showed, and you can see their web site draws completely incorrect conclusions.
Gang rapes? Look around. Other people do the same. Now show me the data on what the percentages are for the US military vs. other groups in Japan. Same thing for any other crimes.
Do I claim the US military are angels? Hell no! Many/Most are youngsters with weapons and an attitude being sent to a land so far from their homes that they find life off base incredible and inviting. Many/Most don't have a clue what to do with themselves, but the percentage of them committing crimes is not higher than local Japanese. They just get more press over it because they are foreigners in the limelight.
I am just sacred if the SDP soldier as a public servant would caused 1611*5 crimes (even including the trafic accidents)/ a year. We have about 5 times more soldiers than the US force.
Don't you think the 1611/50000 crime rate (OFF DUTY) is unusual?
Tell me the crime rate of the US force in the US. It is as bad as the above?
Dogen Z
aka YOSUQUE
- 23 Apr 2007
- 1,072
- 22
In other words, the Japanese can expect these kinds of crimes to continue as long as the boys are here. Thanks for the warning.
But they don't get more press. There was more outrage and press coverage on the Japanese university guys commiting gang rape about a year ago. Everyone seems to be desensitized by the frequency of these incidents by the U.S. military. It's no longer outrageous, just depressing.
The Japanese will have to decide for themselves how much of this they can take. After talking to some Japanese friends, I think many are becoming more hawkish. They want Japan to have their own Bomb so that it can defend itself without the U.S. military. They perceive themselves as a weak nation that has to take a lot of sh*t and act like a stooge for a country that just treats them like a piggy bank rather than a true ally. I'm afraid I can't say their argument is without merit.
You know, at the moment im thinking, why did anyone in history came to japan, im imagining what it would be if nobody went or seek trouble with japan. Would it be calm? would there be no fight? would there be no war? would the word life has another meaning then?
To be honest, i think the US had to leave Japan allready after the last war (referring to the war of US against Japan and after..)
Some people may stay if their really wanna settle in Japan. If you aren't then go back to your own country, i said it maybe rude and cruel but it's the truth. I think the US Force is wasting time for nothing. Japan has an army they are well trained men, time to let go i would say. But if they wanna stay then i think they may stay. But yeah who am i to say whats good and bad? I think it's better if there soldiers but not too many lets say 50/50 (fifty-fifty) then our problem here is solved.
To be honest, i think the US had to leave Japan allready after the last war (referring to the war of US against Japan and after..)
Some people may stay if their really wanna settle in Japan. If you aren't then go back to your own country, i said it maybe rude and cruel but it's the truth. I think the US Force is wasting time for nothing. Japan has an army they are well trained men, time to let go i would say. But if they wanna stay then i think they may stay. But yeah who am i to say whats good and bad? I think it's better if there soldiers but not too many lets say 50/50 (fifty-fifty) then our problem here is solved.
D
diceke
Guest
- 20 Aug 2003
- 4,910
- 416
Ocean Dude,
That gang rape got a lot of press, yes, but what I meant by "more press" is that you will likely see more often the reports of a soldier who has committed a crime, ANY crime, than you will a normal J citizen.
pipokun,
I'm trying to understand the first quoted set of numbers you posted. What are they (especially that last figure), and where did you get them?
If you want figures, go here. http://www3.pref.okinawa.jp/site/view/contview.jsp?cateid=14&id=666&page=1
Forget the number of cases "involving SOFA" people. That doesn't say anything about whether they were arrested or were victims themselves. Look at the second table, the one about arrests. Even though Japan has a high rate of conviction, even these figures don't accurately portray who was convicted, but let's just say 100%. Read the data. It shows clearly that despite the rise in crime since 1972 (partially attributed to the growing number of troops), arrested SOFA personnel (including families and civilians) amount to only 5.3% of all the crimes on the island. Who committed the other 94.7% (mostly Japanese, no doubt).
The latest figures there are only for 2001, but let's take a peek anyway.
Crimes are separated in brutal, assault, larceny, white-collar, immoral conduct, and other. Total for 2001 is 72. TOTAL arrests! That's 72 out of 50,000 total SOFA personnel, or 0.144% (yup, less than 1% of the people did those crimes).
According to this site http://www.dprkstudies.org/documents/asia015.html from 1972 to 2001, the average was 1.7% of the crimes on Okinawa were committed by SOFA, but this average falls to 0.8% if you look only from 1992 to 2001, so by those figures alone, things are actually getting better!
Okinawa has 1.29 million people, or so. If we use this total figure (which erroneously includes children and babies, but so did the figures from the Okinawa site when reporting SOFA personnel!!), we can see that 95% of the 3,344 crimes in 2001 (3177 crimes)
that were not committed by SOFA were then committed by other people. Not knowing how many other foreigners did them, let's just assume the worst and see what we get.
3177/1.29 million = 0.246% crime rate. That's almost twice the 0.144% figure I showed above for SOFA. So, in general Okinawans commit almost twice as many crimes per person as SOFA.
Don't like the math? Ok, let's cut out the kids and use 3/4 of the population (anyone 25 or older), or 970,000 people. 3177/970,000 = 0.33% crime rate. Tsk tsk. This just isn't getting any better, is it? MORE than twice the SOFA rate. Start weeding out even more Okinawans for age and gender (which skews the comparison with SOFA, but whatever), and the rates get worse and worse, don't they?
Don't like 2001 data? Look at this 2007 article from Stars and Stripes. Crime from SOFA is going down! http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?section=104&article=22496&archive=true
That gang rape got a lot of press, yes, but what I meant by "more press" is that you will likely see more often the reports of a soldier who has committed a crime, ANY crime, than you will a normal J citizen.
Yes, our fighting boys will continue to do their bad things, whether they are here or not. Since Japanese people commit a higher percentage of crimes, though, shouldn't we be more in fear of them than the soldiers? Besides, you are trying to imply that just because crimes are committed by soldiers, the entire nation's policy (no, check that, the policy of TWO nations) should be scrapped, and send everyone home. Ridiculous.
pipokun,
I'm trying to understand the first quoted set of numbers you posted. What are they (especially that last figure), and where did you get them?
If you want figures, go here. http://www3.pref.okinawa.jp/site/view/contview.jsp?cateid=14&id=666&page=1
Forget the number of cases "involving SOFA" people. That doesn't say anything about whether they were arrested or were victims themselves. Look at the second table, the one about arrests. Even though Japan has a high rate of conviction, even these figures don't accurately portray who was convicted, but let's just say 100%. Read the data. It shows clearly that despite the rise in crime since 1972 (partially attributed to the growing number of troops), arrested SOFA personnel (including families and civilians) amount to only 5.3% of all the crimes on the island. Who committed the other 94.7% (mostly Japanese, no doubt).
The latest figures there are only for 2001, but let's take a peek anyway.
Crimes are separated in brutal, assault, larceny, white-collar, immoral conduct, and other. Total for 2001 is 72. TOTAL arrests! That's 72 out of 50,000 total SOFA personnel, or 0.144% (yup, less than 1% of the people did those crimes).
According to this site http://www.dprkstudies.org/documents/asia015.html from 1972 to 2001, the average was 1.7% of the crimes on Okinawa were committed by SOFA, but this average falls to 0.8% if you look only from 1992 to 2001, so by those figures alone, things are actually getting better!
Okinawa has 1.29 million people, or so. If we use this total figure (which erroneously includes children and babies, but so did the figures from the Okinawa site when reporting SOFA personnel!!), we can see that 95% of the 3,344 crimes in 2001 (3177 crimes)
that were not committed by SOFA were then committed by other people. Not knowing how many other foreigners did them, let's just assume the worst and see what we get.
3177/1.29 million = 0.246% crime rate. That's almost twice the 0.144% figure I showed above for SOFA. So, in general Okinawans commit almost twice as many crimes per person as SOFA.
Don't like the math? Ok, let's cut out the kids and use 3/4 of the population (anyone 25 or older), or 970,000 people. 3177/970,000 = 0.33% crime rate. Tsk tsk. This just isn't getting any better, is it? MORE than twice the SOFA rate. Start weeding out even more Okinawans for age and gender (which skews the comparison with SOFA, but whatever), and the rates get worse and worse, don't they?
Don't like 2001 data? Look at this 2007 article from Stars and Stripes. Crime from SOFA is going down! http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?section=104&article=22496&archive=true
So, don't just take my word on it.
- 20 Aug 2003
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- 416
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=37878&archive=true
Another related article on the declining crime rate from SOFA.
Another related article on the declining crime rate from SOFA.
