Hiroshi66 said:Madam, you have missed the point of my post completely. It seems that you are firm in your resolve that I am against Japan apologizing. THat is not true. Japan should apologize. I just don't think its fair for Japan to be the good boy who always listens while other countries do things which are on the same level of brutality yet don't need to give an apology. Maciamo, your Tibet comment also caught my eye. The annexation of Tibet and brutalities against them are justified because Tibet invaded China before. This doesn't justify anything.
Maciamo, you're basically saying that if Country A invaded Country B in the 600s, Country B is justified to invade Country A more than a 1000 years later. I never mentioned comfort women. I mentioned rape - which there was - and looting, but I never mentioned comfort women.
My arguement here is that Japan is being forced to apologize for atrocities it has commited by a country which commits atrocities.
TheKansaiKid said:but all this talk abou Nazi's, Imperialist Japanese, and the westward moving native american killing Americans, seems a bit overdramatized to me. I genuinely feel compassion for all the victims of the above mentioned victims. That being said we (by we I mean the entire human race) have been commiting atrocities in the name of god, emperor, and just the hell of it for century on century. Maybe instead of trying to assign blame and decide who was worst of the bad we should be trying to see that it isn't happening now in places where we can maybe stop it. I am much more interested in hearing what our governments should be doing to stop modern day genocide then trying to figure out which government did the worse things 30 years before I was born.
Just my opinion.
I could be wrong.(My emphasis - Sensuikan San)
Actually, yes, in Germany all those groups are remembered. Here, 27 January is the commemoration day for all Nazi victims. Jews may get the biggest attention in the media, but the other victims are not forgotten.Sensuikan San said:we all know about the terrible sufferings of the Jewish people in Nazi Europe - but, does anybody give a damn about the sufferings of :
The Communists ?
The Socialists ?
The Insane ?
The Physically Challenged ?
The Gypsies ?
Soviet POW's ?
Homosexuals ?
It's not the Chinese people who throw stones. Perhaps we should not forget that it's a tiny minority. Tens of thousands, yeah, but out of 1.3 billion.the Chinese people sit down for a moment, look at their own post-war history, within their borders; look at Tibet, reflect, and check the strength of the glass in their own windows before they start chucking too many stones !
Did I say it's the Japanese people? You sound like a f... revisionist.Hiroshi66 said:It's not the Japanese people who massacred Chinese civilians. Perhaps we should not forget that its a tiny minority. The Japanese ARMY, not the Japanese people. Who is rewriting the textbooks? The Japanese RIGHT-WING SCHOLARS, not the Japanese people.
Pardon me if my comments seem harsh, but I don't see how any of this has any relevance? I've lived in a time where one saw the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, the Iran-Contra debacle, the Invasion of Panama and many more incidents. However, this does not make me an expert on these topics--merely a spectator. And while you have may certain viewpoints on these issues, most of what you and I saw or know (of our respective topics) about the past events is filtered information. And because we're spectators of this current event, I really don't understand how your particular past "experience" sheds any real light. Unless, of course, you actually happened to be personally infoved in all of those incidents you described (ie. part of the policy making team), then please dismiss my musings.Sensuikan San said:...Please don't think of me as being a "know-it-all old fart" - but I am possibly the only person on this forum who was actually alive (albeit somewhat young ... !) during WWII ...I do not wish to offend by appearing to minimise past offences - but ....
The fat lady has sung...FOR YOU, maybe, but that doesn't make it less real to those affected by the relatively immediate past. Your characterization recent events as "overreacting" on the part of Chinese people is akin to you telling the child of a murdered mother to "get over it! It's all over!"Sensuikan San said:....Notwithstanding the undoubted atrocities committed ...the Chinese people are currently overreacting and "have it wrong". I do not feel that they realise that they are merely repeating one of the great sins of humanity - not realising that the "fat lady has sung" ! It's all over !
This would appear to be one of the greatest "hang-ups" that we humans have, and the results can be seen all over the world, wether they be in Belfast, Baghdad, Jakarta, East L.A., Beijing ... anywhere...
You're more than welcome to. Your decision not to is yours, and should not be validated by what you think that other people will respond to.Sensuikan San said:Should I really hold a demonstration in Oslo against Viking atrocities against my country ? (Actually ... No!... some of my ancestors were on "the other" side !)
First, there's a big difference between explicit and acknowledgement. The argument isn't whether or not they're providing ALL the details. The argument is that the textbooks are providing ANY details. How would American/British/Jewish/Canadian/etc public react if Germany published textbooks that tried to disavow the past by characterizing the Nazi regime's role in the early 20th century as that of "Savior of Europe;" that the Nazi regime sought to "liberate" the West from influence of the Jewish race? Now consider the fact that there are probably more Chinese people than all of the groups listed above, and then, you begin to understand the frustration.Sensuikan San said:Does it really matter if a Japanese history book isn't totally explicit on Japanese atrocities in the period in question ? I suspect that students interested in the subject will find out in other ways anyway ! ... and those not interested ... aren't going to give a damn ... any more than some American students could give a damn about the American Indian and his lot...or British students give a damn about the machine-gunning of hundreds of innocent spectators at Croke Park, Dublin, during an Irish Football game in 1920 .... or even British students give a damn about the many American Naval POW's kept in deplorable conditions near my own home town (in England) during the War of 1812 ! None of the history books I read at school gave much, if any mention of these matters ! (We, the British, seemed to be not too bothered about losing America - and certainly didn't commit atrocities in that country... or Ireland, South Africa (Where we invented the concentration camp ... and gave it a name ...!) ... or even, in earlier years, Scotland! It simply wouldn't have been cricket!
Let me get this straight. You want the Chinese people to reflect on their post-war past when the Japanese won't even acknowledge theirs? The thrust of the recent campaigns is in reaction to Japanese politicians (via their tacit approval for these "educational" textbooks, written by fundamentalists "scholars") trying to euphamize Japan's historic past. If you remove China from the recent demonstrations, then what about those occuring in HK, S. Korea and Vietnam? Should they all just "get over it" too?Sensuikan San said:Please, don't let's make it last forever ! I would suggest that the Chinese people sit down for a moment, look at their own post-war history, within their borders; look at Tibet, reflect, and check the strength of the glass in their own windows before they start chucking too many stones !
Let's move on.
How are they different? They seem more in line since the end of WW2. Can you please show me how you reached this conclusion?Hiroshi66 said:The Japanese government of 1938 and the Japanese government of 2004 are two different governments. The 1938 government was that of the old Empire of Japan, this is the new LDP led coalition.
I think he meant "fundamentalist."Hiroshi66 said:F..? Interesting that you are an advisor yet you cannot have a civilized conversation without swearing. Tells me a lot.
Hiroshi66 said:But: what about the million Han Chinese, Manchu, and Tibetians mercillesly (sp?) killed by the communist regime? That had nothing to do with Japan, so why isn't the PRC practicing what it preaches? They demand Koizumi not go to Yasukuni because it honors Tojo who killed innocent Chinese. Well, then why are there statues of Mao in Beijing? I thought he had killed innocent Chinese too. So why are they being hypocritical?
Civilised? Hmm, depends on the definition of civilised.Hiroshi66 said:F..? Interesting that you are an advisor yet you cannot have a civilized conversation without swearing. Tells me a lot.
Yep, the 1938 government is responsible for the atrocities.The Japanese government of 1938 and the Japanese government of 2004 are two different governments. The 1938 government was that of the old Empire of Japan, this is the new LDP led coalition.
Well, you're right in a way: to me both f-words are synonymous.Shibuyaexpat said:I think he meant "fundamentalist."Judging from his other posts, bossel really seems to hate that word
Hiroshi66 said:The Japanese government of 1938 and the Japanese government of 2004 are two different governments. The 1938 government was that of the old Empire of Japan, this is the new LDP led coalition.
Wikipedia said:In 1935, he became one of the top officials involved in the industrial development of Manchukuo. Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, himself a veteran of the Manchurian campaign, appointed Kishi Minister of Commerce and Industry in 1941, and he held this position until Japan's surrender in 1945.
Until 1948, Kishi was imprisoned as a Class A war criminal. Unlike Tojo (and several other cabinet members), Kishi was never tried by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. However, he stayed legally prohibited from entering public affairs because of the Allied occupation's purge of members of the old regime. When the purge was fully rescinded in 1952, Kishi decided to go into politics, and joined the new Democratic Party. In 1954, the Democratic Party and Liberal Party merged to elect Hatoyama Ichiro as the head of the new Liberal Democratic Party. Two prime ministers later, in 1957, Kishi was voted in following the resignation of the ailing Ishibashi Tanzan.
Sensuikan_San said:Does it really matter if a Japanese history book isn't totally explicit on Japanese atrocities in the period in question ? I suspect that students interested in the subject will find out in other ways anyway !
Shibuyaexpat said:- Chinese people/gov't point to Japan's unwillingness to acknowledge/ apologize for invading Okinawa and killing Ainu.
- Chinese President Hu Jintao visits a (hypothetical) memorial to dead Chinese generals that systematically killed Japanese civilians.
Maciamo said:That's the kind of example I give to Japanese people who don't understand the importance of apologising. I tell them to imagine if in a soon future China invaded Japan now and killed over 10 million people (eg. the whole population of Tokyo), raped and tortured millions more, forced women into sexual slavery and experimented new biological weapons on a few thousands people. How would they feel about it ? Would they ever be able to forgive ? What would they tell their future children or grand-children about the Chinese ? What if China refused to apologise for its crimes, that nobody in the world really cared about the Japanese anymore, and Chinese history textbooks in 20 or 50 years from now tried to play down their war crimes. Every time the Japanese government asks China for a apology or to change its history textbooks, China replies that it's not 10 million people who died, but maybe 1 or 2 million. How would they feel about a government, which even 60 years after the events still does not want to face its past and try to downplay the scale of the atrocity or avoid a formal apology ?
Usually that makes them think a bit more.
Maciamo said:You will see that many top Japanese politicians in the 1950's, 60's and even 70's were already at the government or worse, military officers, during WWII, but were allowed to stay in power by the Americans. For example, Kishi Nobusuke, who was LDP Prime Minister of Japan from 1957 to 1960, was a convincted class-A war criminal :
His brother Sato Eisuke was PM from 1964 to 1972, the longest term for any prime minster after WWII. More info on the WWII connection in post-war prime ministers here.
Shibuyaexpat said:Pardon me if my comments seem harsh, but I don't see how any of this has any relevance? I've lived in a time where one saw the tearing down of the Berlin Wall, the Iran-Contra debacle, the Invasion of Panama and many more incidents. However, this does not make me an expert on these topics--merely a spectator. And while you have may certain viewpoints on these issues, most of what you and I saw or know (of our respective topics) about the past events is filtered information. And because we're spectators of this current event, I really don't understand how your particular past "experience" sheds any real light. Unless, of course, you actually happened to be personally involved in all of those incidents you described (i.e. part of the policy making team), then please dismiss my musings.
Shibuyaexpat said:The fat lady has sung...FOR YOU, maybe, but that doesn't make it less real to those affected by the relatively immediate past. Your characterization recent events as "overreacting" on the part of Chinese people is akin to you telling the child of a murdered mother to "get over it! It's all over!"
Sensuikan San said:I totally, and fully understand that, with WWII we are dealing with a fairly recent historical period, and that many (or at least, a fairly large number ...) of victims and perpetrators are still alive - which makes the problem a little more complex. In this regard, I do not consider time to be the "Universal Healer" - and I believe that all living War Criminals should be brought to justice, regardless of age. But - should we really hold to ransom all members of a cultural group ... for crimes committed before they were born?
Shibuyaexpat said:First, there's a big difference between explicit and acknowledgement. The argument isn't whether or not they're providing ALL the details. The argument is that the textbooks are providing ANY details. How would American/British/Jewish/Canadian/etc public react if Germany published textbooks that tried to disavow the past by characterizing the Nazi regime's role in the early 20th century as that of "Savior of Europe;" that the Nazi regime sought to "liberate" the West from influence of the Jewish race? Now consider the fact that there are probably more Chinese people than all of the groups listed above, and then, you begin to understand the frustration.
Shibuyaexpat said:Let me get this straight. You want the Chinese people to reflect on their post-war past when the Japanese won't even acknowledge theirs? The thrust of the recent campaigns is in reaction to Japanese politicians (via their tacit approval for these "educational" textbooks, written by fundamentalists "scholars") trying to euphamize Japan's historic past. If you remove China from the recent demonstrations, then what about those occuring in HK, S. Korea and Vietnam? Should they all just "get over it" too?
Index said:In light of the attrocities perpetuated by the U.S. on Japan during world WW2..... (My deletion : Sensuikan San)
As an aside, it's a well known maxim that what is considered right or wrong, legal or illegal, is determined by whether you are on the winning or losing side.