Speaking Japanese

[Jdzspace]

Oh Google is the funniest thing on Earth. It can do some extremely simple sayings alright, but try putting a complicated sentence translated from English to Japanese, then take the Japanese sentence and have it translate that back into English. I sit around for an hour with people sometimes just throwing things back and forth because it comes out so mangled.

so basically what your saying is, at some point in time. as I advance, the translators i have are just going to be flat out worthless, and the only thing i will have to REALLY check my pronunciation will be.......Rosetta Stone.......

i find it hard to believe that the ONLY program that actually checks what you say AND can tell if your saying it wrong is Rosetta Stone. that just can't be how it goes down.

I wonder if Dragon go has a translator, i hear nothing but great things bout their voice recognition software.

 

[Jdzspace]

I once had an incredibly horrible romaji dictionary. I needed to find the word for "battery" so I looked it up, and told the lady in an electronics shop what I wanted. She just looked at me in total confusion, and I never did get any batteries.

The dictionary listed several Japanese words in romaji, with NO distinction between an electrical battery, a group of artillery pieces, physical assault, etc, you get the picture.

That was the day I decided I was NOT going to carry a dictionary around with me; I would get through my daily life in Japan without one.

good lord....i see. but after being EXTREMELY challanged and pushed by these courses, i'm still loving it and looking forward to REALLY understanding it.

so it's all good.....i'm still here

 

[Foocha]

so basically what your saying is, at some point in time. as I advance, the translators i have are just going to be flat out worthless, and the only thing i will have to REALLY check my pronunciation will be.......Rosetta Stone.......

i find it hard to believe that the ONLY program that actually checks what you say AND can tell if your saying it wrong is Rosetta Stone. that just can't be how it goes down.

I wonder if Dragon go has a translator, i hear nothing but great things bout their voice recognition software.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that, more often than not, translators like Google will be wrong. As far as speech comprehension, it might be alright, but trying to actually translate something is like playing a game of telephone. So even if you are pronouncing it right, Google may think you're saying something completely different anyway.

Have you considered trying to find language partners that you can speak with over Skype? I'm sure they would be able to clear up some pronunciation problems that you are worried about, since it's too hard to tell over a forum. Or maybe try to record a file of yourself and posting a YouTube link here.

 

[Ahwii]

I would say that a program can never sufficiently hear and register your pronounciation, and that if you can't find any native (or very fluent) speaker of Japanese, it would probably be better to get a cd with a native speaker. Like listening comprehension. Listen to the tracks and repeat after each, you'll probably be able to hear by yourself if you're correct or not.
I assume there would be some audio tracks online if you don't particularly want to spend a lot of money on a cd.

 

[Jdzspace]

so....there is a very distinct rhythm to this language it would seem.that is a very interesting discovery.

when i was just reading it on my own, the translator was hit and miss. But when i paid attention to the rhythm that the native speaker on my computer was using, it was all of a sudden 100% on the translation.

I'm not sure if this is going to make it easier or harder, but if the phrase translates properly 100% of the time when in rhythm. Then something must be right about said "rhythm" method.

interesting

 

[Mike Cash]

Not speaking with English rhythm does make your Japanese easier to understand.

 

[Jdzspace]

Not speaking with English rhythm does make your Japanese easier to understand.

exactly......it only took me 3 weeks to figure that out.

now i must unlearn, what i have learned.

I was using english rhythm which puts stress in places that japanese doesn't. and as you know, putting stress on certain words is the difference between "Parents" and "aftershocks"

so it makes sense, so i have to pay extra close attention now to how it is said.

 

[Jdzspace]

something else curious. and this might be one of the downfalls of Rosetta stone, or maybe it's meant to be what it says.

but it seems like, when I say musukotachi, it comes back as "sons" and when i say "musukotachi" it comes back "son and friends"

maybe the picture is supposed to be that, parents with son and friends. but is that a normal rule? you have to add tachi to the informal form of the word? if you tag it to the end of the san then the tachi won't refer to the word before the san?

 

[Mike Cash]

Strongly English-accented Japanese grates on the ears, if you ask me. I have no idea what native speakers think about it. If when starting out on this you don't have some muscle discomfort after speaking Japanese aloud for a while, chances are you ain't doing it right.

 

[Mike Cash]

something else curious. and this might be one of the downfalls of Rosetta stone, or maybe it's meant to be what it says.

but it seems like, when I say musukotachi, it comes back as "sons" and when i say "musukotachi" it comes back "son and friends"

maybe the picture is supposed to be that, parents with son and friends. but is that a normal rule? you have to add tachi to the informal form of the word? if you tag it to the end of the san then the tachi won't refer to the word before the san?

Try writing that again; I can't see a difference between the two....but it is due to RS sucking, expecting you to intuit rather than explaining stuff.

 

[Jdzspace]

Try writing that again; I can't see a difference between the two....but it is due to RS sucking, expecting you to intuit rather than explaining stuff.

musukosan tachi= son and friends

musukotachi= sons

is that a rule? it feels like to me that both should mean sons

 

[Mike Cash]

musukosan tachi= son and friends

musukotachi= sons

is that a rule? it feels like to me that both should mean sons

That's very different from what you first wrote.

This is the sort of thing working from one proper textbook instead of a half dozen half-a$$ed reference materials and that sorry-a$$ed P.O.S. Rosetta Stone would eliminate.

What people who kick so hard against not using a proper textbook fail to realize is that what they end up doing is coming to a forum and asking others to write up individualized explanations of things that already exist but they're too stubborn to use....so they expect us to type type type type type and essentially write an ad hoc textbook just for them.

The presence or absence of "san" indicates whose son it is. One only adds "san" in reference to the sons of others. The absence of "san" indicates one's own son. The "tachi" is simply a pluralizer and the "others" implied by its presence varies according to situation/context. With no specific situation/context, it is impossible to know exactly who is meant....could be friends, other siblings, anything. The only thing known for sure is whether the son in question is in-group or out-group.

This is why I get annoyed with people who learn from crappy materials....with good materials, you wouldn't have to ask that.

Questions arising due to needing additional help with specific points are one thing, but what we always end up with is forum members essentially being expected to write lessons for individuals. If RS had bothered to include a paragraph of text, this wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Jdzspace]

That's very different from what you first wrote.

This is the sort of thing working from one proper textbook instead of a half dozen half-a$$ed reference materials and that sorry-a$$ed P.O.S. Rosetta Stone would eliminate.

What people who kick so hard against not using a proper textbook fail to realize is that what they end up doing is coming to a forum and asking others to write up individualized explanations of things that already exist but they're too stubborn to use....so they expect us to type type type type type and essentially write an ad hoc textbook just for them.

The presence or absence of "san" indicates whose son it is. One only adds "san" in reference to the sons of others. The absence of "san" indicates one's own son. The "tachi" is simply a pluralizer and the "others" implied by its presence varies according to situation/context. With no specific situation/context, it is impossible to know exactly who is meant....could be friends, other siblings, anything. The only thing known for sure is whether the son in question is in-group or out-group.

This is why I get annoyed with people who learn from crappy materials....with good materials, you wouldn't have to ask that.

Questions arising due to needing additional help with specific points are one thing, but what we always end up with is forum members essentially being expected to write lessons for individuals. If RS had bothered to include a paragraph of text, this wouldn't be necessary.

while you are not wrong in anything you have said, there are some bumps that are going to arise because while I am using RS. Keep in mind, that i'm not working with RS alone. and those other "half ***ed materials you reference I am in different areas. so while your frustration is understood, your slamming the other materials I use isn't entirely fair. I imagine if i worked my way in each piece i had to the same point, then the questions would vanish all the same. Unfortunately, since some of them i do at home, some i do on the way to work, some i do at work, some i do at lunch breaks. that kind of synchronicity isn't plausible.

and while i understand that the text book might and probably would solve those problems, but that being said, I am 25x further along then i would be otherwise if I had only a text book. For no other reason than the fact that 70% of my studying is done while i'm doing other things, work (got a few of those going on). I'm doing the best I can with what I have, and like i told you before the reason i'm not getting a text book is NOT because i'm lazy, or stupid or trying to be presumptuous of your and others like you holding my hand or writing me lessons.

I am absorbing MANY lessons a day, but since each material isn't in the same spot, there is bound to be something that RS introduces to me that i just haven't gotten too yet in the other materials. so I ask here,the alternative being stopping a lesson in the middle, and then starting with another material to go through until said question is answered.

Keep in mind, if i was a lazy/stubborn student, i would just memorize the pictures go through the exercises like 99.9% of people who use rosetta stone do and be nowhere near my goal. The reason i'm even having the issue, is because when i speak the phrase and check and double check it, something didn't feel right. I understand your irritation, but try and see mine.

I am learning SO MUCH, at such a rapid pace. it's fun, exciting, and i'm applying more and more every day (i.e. counting inventory and the cash drawer in japanese [sort of, not using counters, just using the numbers ....for now])

being able to send VERY brief micro-conversations to my friends in japanese (it's fun to me )

and as im going along, learning so much, and enjoying it soooo much. I discover a hiccup. suspecting it might be a rule, i come in here because you guys have helped me so much thus far.

and you practically insult me for not having a text book, and put down the things that have taught me SOOOOO much. I know it's because you don't really see the progress i've made, but to assume that someone who is going to the lengths that I have told you I am going to in order to learn this, doesn't it make sense that if i wasn't making good enough progress to stick with the things i'm using,that I wouldn't?

so why can't you just assume that the materials i use ARE good, and ask why it hasn't come up in the other materials i have used instead of assuming that they are bad? because the reason it hasn't has NOTHING to do with their quality, but more the fact that i have put 200+ hours into this in the last 3 weeks, and due to my schedule it is spread out among multiple sources.

I understand it's not perfect, but with the exception of a hiccup here and there, it is working. I appreciate your help, i truly do.

but it seems that you saying "yes, that is a rule. San only refers to the person in front of it, if tachi is put after that , then it is describing others"

isn't really a "customized lesson", it's more confirmation of what I already suspected. which is why i asked a yes or not question, not asking for in depth details.

I don't want to upset you, and you have been helping me a lot. But since you have helped me this far, at least TRY to respect me enough as a student to NOT bash what i'm doing and if i need a little help or confirmation of what i suspect, or whatever, please use the knowledge you clearly have to help me.

because all this has done is make me feel the need to get defensive, and try to convey to you my methods which has....lo and behold, taken me away from the lesson I was working on before I checked back.

how is that fair?

 

[Mike Cash]

The scattergun approach leads to just as much confusion and stumbling as anything else does. And not having used a textbook, you really have no way of saying you're "25x" times farther along than you would be had you used one. You've probably done 25x more treading water and nibbling around the edges, though.

Take a look at this and see where 200+ hours of focused study with comprehensive professionally prepared materials would put you. Do any of those descriptions of abilities fit? How are you coming along on grammar? Conjugation? Making sentences? Oral comprehension? Is what you're doing resulting in any skills? Or is it just piling up words and phrases?

You're not the first one to come along like this. And every single time we end up writing lessons to teach them things that steady progress in a reasonable direction through a unified text would teach them anyway....questions that arise from their scattergun approach which doesn't build knowledge or skills in any sort of sensible order. How much stuff have you had to unlearn so far?

 

[Jdzspace]

The scattergun approach leads to just as much confusion and stumbling as anything else does. And not having used a textbook, you really have no way of saying you're "25x" times farther along than you would be had you used one. You've probably done 25x more treading water and nibbling around the edges, though.

Take a look at this and see where 200+ hours of focused study with comprehensive professionally prepared materials would put you. Do any of those descriptions of abilities fit? How are you coming along on grammar? Conjugation? Making sentences? Oral comprehension? Is what you're doing resulting in any skills? Or is it just piling up words and phrases?

You're not the first one to come along like this. And every single time we end up writing lessons to teach them things that steady progress in a reasonable direction through a unified text would teach them anyway....questions that arise from their scattergun approach which doesn't build knowledge or skills in any sort of sensible order. How much stuff have you had to unlearn so far?

I have come a very long way, I have all the sylibaries (sp?) down. I do have basic sentence structure and grammar down.
what i don't have down is a ton of vocab. I havent' done any hardcore congegation and that is more because I want to make sure I have the basics down first.

you can call my approach scattergun, that is fair.

but I know how to learn skills, and I purposefully started different programs the way i have because I want to make sure my foundation is strong before it gets too advanced for me. I can honestly say, I have been through the basics of a few programs, and each one had a different approach, and taught me different things that the previous one didn't. I can read just about any japanese, and sound it out competently. I know a lot of words, though admittedly my comprehension isn't the highest as far as taking all that I know and putting it into my own sentences, phrases, etc.

but that is on me, not the materials. I'm not stupid, but it still takes me time to fully get some things.

I would like your help, when i have a question. But believe me when I say, I don't want lessons. it's not your responsibility to do that, i wouldn't ask that off you.

a simple answer here, a word of advice there, maybe a tip to pronounce that darn Japanese ''R" consistently. that's all i ask.

heck, the suggestion someone made to me about japanesepod101.com was a REAL game changer. I wouldn' have that if not for you guys here.

that's all I want, words of encouragement if i get frustrated, advice, simple answers and maybe pointing me in the right direction.

that's all i ask for.

and FYI

Level 4. .....with 2 exceptions. I don't know that much Kanji and maybe know about half of the words mentioned. but everything else, i can do. and given the fact that i'm only 3 weeks in,that's not too shabby

 

[Jdzspace]

The scattergun approach leads to just as much confusion and stumbling as anything else does. And not having used a textbook, you really have no way of saying you're "25x" times farther along than you would be had you used one. You've probably done 25x more treading water and nibbling around the edges, though.

Take a look at this and see where 200+ hours of focused study with comprehensive professionally prepared materials would put you. Do any of those descriptions of abilities fit? How are you coming along on grammar? Conjugation? Making sentences? Oral comprehension? Is what you're doing resulting in any skills? Or is it just piling up words and phrases?

You're not the first one to come along like this. And every single time we end up writing lessons to teach them things that steady progress in a reasonable direction through a unified text would teach them anyway....questions that arise from their scattergun approach which doesn't build knowledge or skills in any sort of sensible order. How much stuff have you had to unlearn so far?

and i won't even argue that 200 hours of studying you have suggested would put me further along than i am now.

the problem is that, in order to invest that 200 hours in said studying would take YEARS if i went to a class. or MINIMUM 8 months if i just had a straight text.

and this point, though i'll be scattered a bit at first (keep in mind i'm only 3 weeks in). I should have a MUCH better grasp on the language after one year of study this way, than i would any other fashion.

not to mention that it wouldn't be NEARLY this much fun.

and then i wouldn't get to talk to you guys. I do like that part too.

 

[Mike Cash]

200 hours in three weeks is nine and a half hours a day....done a little bit here with this app and a little bit there with that app and a little over there with the other thing....seems not to leave time for much else during your waking hours and all the little bits can't be terribly separated. Nine and a half hours a day but you can't find a chunk during that to use something good?

You misunderstood my explanation of the san thing, by the way.

 

[Jdzspace]

200 hours in three weeks is nine and a half hours a day....done a little bit here with this app and a little bit there with that app and a little over there with the other thing....seems not to leave time for much else during your waking hours and all the little bits can't be terribly separated. Nine and a half hours a day but you can't find a chunk during that to use something good?

You misunderstood my explanation of the san thing, by the way.

well my time on RS is clocked internally. and I know i've put in 30 hours just in lunch breaks and morning commutes. not to mention an hour in the morning while i'm getting ready and when i'm home at night. i know, it's crazy....but that is pretty sure.

and no, i got it.

 

[Angel Valis]

The presence or absence of "san" indicates whose son it is. One only adds "san" in reference to the sons of others. The absence of "san" indicates one's own son. The "tachi" is simply a pluralizer and the "others" implied by its presence varies according to situation/context. With no specific situation/context, it is impossible to know exactly who is meant....could be friends, other siblings, anything. The only thing known for sure is whether the son in question is in-group or out-group.

San only refers to the person in front of it, if tachi is put after that , then it is describing others"

You misunderstood my explanation of the san thing, by the way.

no, i got it.

Um, read that again. If you did get it, then you rephrased it poorly.

Also, I don't mean to be rude...but if you CAN complete N4 after 3 weeks (or get anywhere CLOSE) then you're some kind of genius. After 4 years of classroom study including studying abroad in Japan, I BARELY passed N4 with about 53%. Granted, a big part of that is me and my poor study habits. But better students than I barely passed as well.

It's okay to use a few resources, but the point is that you need ONE primary source of learning. All your other resources should supplement that source.

So say that you have a text book. Along with that you could have some audio materials (preferably paired with your textbook, but other general stuff isn't bad for developing an ear for the language) for listening practice while driving to and from work and during breaks. A workbook for doing practice exercises wouldn't go amiss either; lots of textbooks have workbooks that are geared especially towards them and often even have answer keys available for self-studiers. And of course, there's nothing wrong with a few good dictionaries.

 

[Jdzspace]

Just curious, while looking at what it would take to be a level 4 student

it says you need to know about 400 Kanji......well TECHNICALLY I know over a thousand Kanji.....I mean 999 are numbers, but still kanji,

I imagine that doesn't count. right?

 

[Jdzspace]

Um, read that again. If you did get it, then you rephrased it poorly.

Also, I don't mean to be rude...but if you CAN complete N4 after 3 weeks (or get anywhere CLOSE) then you're some kind of genius. After 4 years of classroom study including studying abroad in Japan, I BARELY passed N4 with about 53%. Granted, a big part of that is me and my poor study habits. But better students than I barely passed as well.

It's okay to use a few resources, but the point is that you need ONE primary source of learning. All your other resources should supplement that source.

So say that you have a text book. Along with that you could have some audio materials (preferably paired with your textbook, but other general stuff isn't bad for developing an ear for the language) for listening practice while driving to and from work and during breaks. A workbook for doing practice exercises wouldn't go amiss either; lots of textbooks have workbooks that are geared especially towards them and often even have answer keys available for self-studiers. And of course, there's nothing wrong with a few good dictionaries.

I did rephrase it poorly, but then went back and re-read it. and I got it.

and i'm not suggesting that I could pass N4 right now. but I do know that I do have a grasp of basic grammar, and can make simple sentences and phrases, and read.

but I am nowhere near 800 words of vocab and 400 Kanji (legitimately).

I imagine it would take me a little while longer before I could pass that test. But I am a lot closer than I should be after 3 weeks. And thank you, I know you don't mean to be rude. You see a lot of people come through, some serious, some casual, some ignorant, who have probably wasted your time or annoyed you over time. so I get it.

but if that is all that is necessary to pass level 4. I guarantee I'll be there inside of 6 months. no, I am not a genius. at least, i don't think i am. But I am a fantastic student, and I am attacking it full bore. At the rate i'm learning, if i don't have those basic requirements listed down by the end of the year, something is really wrong with me. because as you saw, I am REALLY attacking this.

You don't have to worry about coming off as rude, if you toe the line i'll let you know. But self study isn't easy, so if i'm doing something stupid I do rely on you guys to let me know. I do take it into account and apply what I can. If i'm going to do what i set out to do, it's not always going to be sunshine and roses. i'm prepared for that. but i'm not going to quit, no matter what.

even though being introduced to the words "Konootokonoko" and "konoonnanoko" made me consider it for a split second

 

[Angel Valis]

Actually...looking at those requirements again on that page...those seem awfully low...or I'm incredibly stupid; which I suppose is a possibility.

Kanji are individual characters. So 一, 十, and 十一 are not 4 or even 3 kanji, there are only 2 kanji represented here. And kana such as あ, か, さ, た, な, は, ま, ら, や, and わ don't count.

 

[Jdzspace]

Actually...looking at those requirements again on that page...those seem awfully low...or I'm incredibly stupid; which I suppose is a possibility.

Kanji are individual characters. So 一, 十, and 十一 are not 4 or even 3 kanji, there are only 2 kanji represented here. And kana such as あ, か, さ, た, な, は, ま, ら, や, and わ don't count.

lol, yeah. I kind of figured

so i guess legitimately I know about, well with numbers (which is what? 10 Kanji? maybe 15) I would say I know about 20 Kanji really well at this point.
so i have a ways to go. I really need to ramp up my Kanji studies, I have purposefully shied away from them for a while, so I have some ground to make up for.

 

[Jdzspace]

Actually...looking at those requirements again on that page...those seem awfully low...or I'm incredibly stupid; which I suppose is a possibility.

Kanji are individual characters. So 一, 十, and 十一 are not 4 or even 3 kanji, there are only 2 kanji represented here. And kana such as あ, か, さ, た, な, は, ま, ら, や, and わ don't count.

and I don't think your stupid at all. But it does limit a person if they only take 1 or 2 courses a week, you are limited by the pace the instructor goes. and if you try to go ahead it can clash and be very confusing. and I am trying REALLY hard to immerse myself in this as well.

taking 2-3 lessons in the morning, listening to stuff on the way to work, applying it at work, studying flashcards during downtime, practicing Kanji or more flashcards at lunch, listening to more on the way home, having flashcards posted all over my house with japanese words (i.e. kitchen,bathroom,bed etc. etc. ), and then taking 3-4 hours at night of lessons or just basic studying. and since i'm doing what I want when i want, it is infinitely more fun than taking a course or following a text. I get to explore the language in a sense, from many different perspectives. I think of it like having 3-4 japanese friends who want to help me, and they all teach me something different in different ways. I imagine if i was following a text or taking a course, it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

though with that being said, i'm still waiting for it to "click" in my head, but i'm still very new at this. so i imagine it will be a while.

 

[Jdzspace]

Actually...looking at those requirements again on that page...those seem awfully low...or I'm incredibly stupid; which I suppose is a possibility.

Kanji are individual characters. So 一, 十, and 十一 are not 4 or even 3 kanji, there are only 2 kanji represented here. And kana such as あ, か, さ, た, な, は, ま, ら, や, and わ don't count.

are there kana that does count as kanji? because I do know hiragana and katakana and can produce them at will. not as quickly as i would like, but i imagine that will take time