- 27 Nov 2012
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I don't think it's possible to be immersed while living in California. You need to be living in Japan, working at a Japanese workplace or going to a school.
But, best of luck to you!
Speaking Japanese
- Thread starter Jdzspace
- Start date
But, best of luck to you!
- 4 Oct 2012
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I second this advice. I cannot remember the name of my textbook, but it was out of Harvard and very well made. Every textbook I have seen other than that seemed to be rather random with vocab and grammar that was not so useful.
And you should get a text that uses romanization exclusively or as much as possible to ensure you got the pronounciation correct.
My only complaint about the Harvard text is that it was in kunrei romanization rather than Hepburn. This means I was pronouncing words incorrectly. You can imagine how one would say "manju" if it was spelled "manzyu" and they did not understand not to pronounce "z" as "z".
Speaking is the root of all human language. That is where you should begin and focus all of your concentration until you get to some real fluency in basic conversation.
- Thread starter
- #28
well obviously that would be optimal, and your right. But i'm doing it as much as I can with what I have. I wish i could just pick up and move to Japan, believe me. But unfortunately life didn't quite work out that way.
so for now, i'll just learn the language. then when the time is right, I can finish my days there.
- 15 Mar 2002
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You might want to visit first.
Under what sort of visa do you intend to immigrate? Do you meet the qualifications?
- Thread starter
- #30
i'm years from being able to immigrate. and I wish i would love to visit, I haven't looked into qualifications. This is all sort of a long term goal, learning the language is just one of the steps on that journey.
ok, now i know i've been studying too long, the words i'm typing look weird because i've been writing in japanese for the last 2 hours. lol
- Thread starter
- #31
I am planning on making another set of flashcards later on, I already made a set with Kana.
but I want to make another one with BOTH Kana and Kanji on the same card.
I think it will make it easier to relate it to the character whos sound I already know, so i don't have to put romanji on it at all.
or maybe Kani/Kanji on one side and romanji on the other?
any advice on this idea?
but I want to make another one with BOTH Kana and Kanji on the same card.
I think it will make it easier to relate it to the character whos sound I already know, so i don't have to put romanji on it at all.
or maybe Kani/Kanji on one side and romanji on the other?
any advice on this idea?
Angel Valis
黒川
- 15 Jul 2010
- 290
- 27
I politely disagree. Once you know how to read the kana, there should be no more question as to the pronunciation of anything.
The only exceptions being 母音の無声化 (vowel devoicing such as in すき or です), 高低アクセント(pitch accent, 端[はし] vs 橋[はし] vs 箸[はし]), how syllabic ん changes before certain consonant sounds from /n/ to /m/ or /ŋ/, or general slurring and contraction that occurs when someone is speaking casually and/or quickly. And other than that last one, the others, while necessary for fluency in accent, don't overtly affect understandability given context.
I think that too much romanization negatively affects people's ability to learn because then they tend to want to pronounce things in an English way. I had a classmate that seemed to refuse to pronounce his "R's" correctly for like 3-4 years...it was infuriating.
- 15 Mar 2002
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A good belly laugh from a native speaker over the English "R" was enough to cure me.
I decided that while I might never get everything exactly right grammar-wise the one thing I could do something about was trying not to speak with an obvious foreign accent.
I decided that while I might never get everything exactly right grammar-wise the one thing I could do something about was trying not to speak with an obvious foreign accent.
- Thread starter
- #34
that is exactly why I am trying to limit my exposure to romanji in the first place. if i was born in Japan, i wouldn't have romanji, I just think i'll develop bad habits if i rely too heavily on it
- 15 Mar 2002
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"Romaji"....not "romanji"
This is a language where small differences matter; I'm not just nitpicking.
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with using romaji as training wheels for a short while. It won't stunt your progress or cripple your future learning. You use it, you learn to do without it, you discard it. Far too much ink and anguish are wasted on worrying about whether to use romaji or not. We're talking about the first few weeks of a YEARS LONG PROJECT here.
- Thread starter
- #36
I suppose that is true enough, I just felt like i could find comfort or fluency easier if when i think about the characters i just think of the sounds i learned, not the romaji.
but you guys definitely know better than me on this one, so i guess i'll make the flashcards with kanji and kana and romaji on the back.
and i have learned through my translator how little difference really matters, not sure how, but i think I was trying to say "Pan" and somehow it came out as suicide. ....not exactly sure how that happened, but....we persevere all the same.
- 3 Jan 2012
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I totally agree with this. Learning Romaji only slow down yourself from learning the language. It's Hiragana and Kanji that you need to get used to in any cost, especially in case of reading.
- 27 Nov 2012
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But for Western people, there is very little you need to learn for Romaji. It's about 80% accurate if you know the sound of Japanese vowels. I think it's better to use the kana, but for Western people, learning an alphabet before you start on a language whatsoever, is a problem. Words and sounds first is best, alphabet later, in my opinion.
- Thread starter
- #39
this I have noticed, I have taken so much time to familiarize myself with the letters, thinking it would be easier to put them together into words. But now instead of saying words, i'm saying the letters that make them up, which is fine for reading at my own pace. But if i have to read something off the screen outloud under time constraints (which are plentiful in rosetta stone), that is where I fall apart.
so i'm trying to focus more on words and phrases than just letters, while still trying to learn more letters and remembering and practicing saying words instead of letters.
any advice on how to do this easier?
- 27 Nov 2012
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Do you know how to say the Japanese alphabet, as in, having listened to a native speaker say it? That should be good enough to start using romaji, and then to phase in kana as you are comfortable. Listening is very important for low level students. High level students too, but higher level students tend to have a better idea of how words are said.
After that, it's a matter of getting a good text and settling in.
For a beginner who's really into it, I would recommend a JLPT N5 text. The top hit on Amazon was this: Preparatory Course for the JLPT N5 (Japanese Language Proficiency Test): Matsumoto, Unicom: Amazon.com: Books
When I started Japanese, there was no N5, so I can't actually recommend one above another. But I found the JLPT texts to just be a pile of info, sorted by level, and not spoon-fed at all. A lot of other beginner texts try to not discourage you with a very slow learning curve, but it might feel frustrating to someone who wants to jump in.
hideway
still hiding
- 8 Dec 2006
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In my opinion, if you want to start by learning and memorizing hiragana and katakana, you don't really need a ton of textbooks or apps for cellphones nor computer programs. Just google the character set, pick a piece of paper and a pen and go crazy. Then you can go towards some textbook (I didn't see anyone mentioning the Genki textbook?) or online tests.
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- Thread starter
- #43
I downloaded human japanese after researching texts. I know it's not from a purely academic perspective, but It came very highly recommended so i figured combining it with the 2 other resources I am using (Rosetta Stone and Ja Sensei) as well as other things I have it seems like a pretty well rounded approach.
what is your guys view on this? remember my objective is to actually SPEAK japanese, not just read it. other than the text suggested previously, is there anything else i can add to help?
what is your guys view on this? remember my objective is to actually SPEAK japanese, not just read it. other than the text suggested previously, is there anything else i can add to help?
If you want to learn how to speak Japanese you need someone to actually speak Japanese with. In many areas in the US (at least on the coasts) they have adult education classes for learning Japanese, often hosted by the local Japan Society. Some are free, some cost money. I would get in contact with one of these places, for example Japan Society of Northern California or Japan America Society of Southern California - Home and see if they have recommendations or classes available.
- Thread starter
- #45
ugh......I don't even know how this is happened. After studying how things are pronounced and practicing a bit, I went back to the phrase that sparked this thread. with much better understanding of pronunciation the issues i had with the back end of the phrase are all but gone. (the phrase being Ohnanoko wa Jitensha o ma tte imasen)
but as I was reciting it into my translator, it kept coming back "the voice of the woman has no bicycle".
so I found out that "the voice of a woman" is "koe" , and to link ohnanoko and Jitensha, i read the particle ha (wa).
the translator was hearing "koe" instead of what i felt like i was pronouncing which was "kowa".....these sound VERY VERY similar, so if my translator app is picking it up, i'm sure anyone i speak to in Japanese would as well. I feel like i already developed some sort of bad habit, need suggestions to overcome it.
but as I was reciting it into my translator, it kept coming back "the voice of the woman has no bicycle".
so I found out that "the voice of a woman" is "koe" , and to link ohnanoko and Jitensha, i read the particle ha (wa).
the translator was hearing "koe" instead of what i felt like i was pronouncing which was "kowa".....these sound VERY VERY similar, so if my translator app is picking it up, i'm sure anyone i speak to in Japanese would as well. I feel like i already developed some sort of bad habit, need suggestions to overcome it.
nekojita
先輩
- 14 Jan 2009
- 1,660
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Automatic translators are awful, particularly for languages which are as dissimilar as English and Japanese. It may be that your pronunciation of "ko" is somehow close to "koe", since "kowa" and "koe" should not be anywhere near close. koe is just "voice", not, "of a woman". Presumably the translator was hearing "onna no koe wa..." (woman's voice...) instead of "onna no ko wa..." (girl...). It's hard to know if the problem is with your pronunciation or the computer recognition - since voice recognition isn't an exact science either.
I would agree with previous comments on the thread - you need a class (or if not possible to travel to one, perhaps a tutor over Skype or similar). That's the best way to get proper feedback/correction on your pronunciation.
I would agree with previous comments on the thread - you need a class (or if not possible to travel to one, perhaps a tutor over Skype or similar). That's the best way to get proper feedback/correction on your pronunciation.
- Thread starter
- #48
Thank you, i'll just find me a japanese girlfriend, then i can bounce it off someone in person for free
Angel Valis
黒川
- 15 Jul 2010
- 290
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How are you pronouncing え? If there's confusion between /wa/ and /e/ then, you may be pronouncing it closer to /ə/. Japanese え should be somewhere between /e/ and /ɛ/.
- Thread starter
- #50
I am pronouncing (poorly obviously) ohnanoko wa
and the translator is hearing koe.....i'm not saying "e", atleast not to my knowledge. the translator has been really good up to this point, but it could just be a limitation of it. technology isn't perfect after all
