So you want to live in Japan? - Japanese Culture and You
- Thread starter Kirirao
- Start date
Pierrot le Fou
十人黄色
- 14 Oct 2005
- 61
- 14
I forgot about the manufacturing sector. My mistake.
But I'm glad to see that much like just 'bout every other Japan-related board on the internet, mistakes are taken in stride. Rather than, y'know, shooting off a dozen sarcastic comments. Thanks for that. Really.
But I'm glad to see that much like just 'bout every other Japan-related board on the internet, mistakes are taken in stride. Rather than, y'know, shooting off a dozen sarcastic comments. Thanks for that. Really.
Kinsao
Horizon Rider
- 8 May 2005
- 8,515
- 143
I've never been to Japan, but I'm guessing that there are people - of varying ages - who drive trucks, cut hair, mend roofs, dig holes in the road, grow crops, prune trees, groom dogs, make clothes, clean swimming pools, wait at table, engineer records, deliver mail, plumb apartments...... and all the other stuff that gets done in just about all of the developed world.....
I guess the comment about it being difficult to get fired was referring only to desk-based jobs. Incidentally, it would be interesting to know the proportion of people in Japan who work mainly behind a desk as opposed to "other". (I have no idea of that statistic. ) And, this would be higher in the cities, too.
I guess the comment about it being difficult to get fired was referring only to desk-based jobs. Incidentally, it would be interesting to know the proportion of people in Japan who work mainly behind a desk as opposed to "other". (I have no idea of that statistic. ) And, this would be higher in the cities, too.
hebiichigo
ナイスメルヘン！
- 7 Feb 2005
- 449
- 7
Kinsao said:
Speaking of plumbing, my host father in Japan was a plumber. (Just like my real father, which was an interesting coincidence
) Most other people's host fathers didn't seem to be around at home a lot, but mine was there more often. It was good 
Uh.. sorry for this pointless comment, I guess... But I guess it made me realise "Of course, they have jobs like this everywhere!"
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
Pierrot le Fou said:
And a buncha buncha other sectors, too. But we're the invisible people; we without neckties don't count.
You needed a little air let out of you, and we did it for you. I like to think we performed a service and it is great to have it appreciated. Really.
Surely there is no one here in this forum that can truly give an accurate account of the employment situation in Japan, even if you if you live in Japan you would had to have worked in every sector and level in order to make that sort of a comment.
I think everything is in relation to each other, Japan may not have the strict work ethic that we have imagined but I would say with a certain degree of confidence that the work attitude and attitude to education in Japan is much better than a lot of developed western countries.
I think everything is in relation to each other, Japan may not have the strict work ethic that we have imagined but I would say with a certain degree of confidence that the work attitude and attitude to education in Japan is much better than a lot of developed western countries.
GaijinPunch
遠いから行きません
- 25 Nov 2004
- 1,275
- 34
I think it does. After living there for quite a while and then moving to a place where people often don't show up for work, and merchants don't make any verbal communication to customers, it's a very easy conclusion to draw.
Pierrot le Fou
十人黄色
- 14 Oct 2005
- 61
- 14
The Work Ethic is for the image of working, rather than actual work for the most part.
Most employees will show up 15-20 minutes early for work, even if they don't have extra work to do, because showing up early gives the image of being a hard worker. Most employees will stay late until the boss leaves, even if they don't have any work, this gives the image of being a hard worker. This applies mostly to office jobs, as it's not as easy to feign effort when it comes to manual labour.
Let me give some examples. When making my schedule at the city office, my coworker was trying to distribute my time evenly across schools according to how many classes they had within that school versus days of the month. The math really isn't that complicated, and in the West, someone would just make an Excel spreadsheet to do it automatically if you punched in how many days of work there were in a month, semester, or whatever.
But my coworker was grueling over this simple math for about 1.5 hours, constantly talking to herself, and making it seem like it was an impossible job, because she had nothing else to do, and had to be there for 10 hours, so she wanted to keep looking busy as long as possible, even if the effort wasn't legitimate. She demanded that she'd have to recheck my work after I did it for her in 5 minutes.
This is the source of 窶愿??堙ｨﾅ陳ｾ (hitorigoto -- self-talking). This is why you get people shouting 窶堙ｦ窶堙≫?堋ｵ (yossh!) after they finish a task. It's not any source of personal satisfaction most of the time, but rather the indication to everyone else that they put some effort in. Same thing behind the people who talk to themselves mid-task.
This is why you see teachers taking 20 minutes to get themselves tea or coffee, while doing the fake feet-shuffling run. Because it makes them look busy, even if they're just getting coffee.
There's nothing efficient about that. There's no real work ethic about that. It's an ethic about looking like you're working more than anything. At the company I was employed at before Japan (a printer software company), the hours were very flexible, and people would work 6 hour days sometimes. But for those 6 hour days they wouldn't take lunch, they wouldn't take breaks, and they wouldn't screw around on the internet like the rest of us mere mortal employees. So while it may look crappy that they're getting into work at 11am, it certainly didn't affect their work ethic or productivity. It only hurt their chances for promotion (because while that works for an engineer, managers need to work longer hours to deal with problems that come up with their projects).
I guess it depends on the type of work. The effort put into the service industry is far more genuine than the effort put into the office/salaried-worker fields. The former is far harder to fake (though you'll see people in the service industry wiping down random services at the supermarket, or standing at a random counter with no customers when the registers have 20 minute lines at them). It seems busy in an office until you actually pay attention to what people are doing, then you realize that the long hours are just a front for extreme slackerdom otherwise.
Most employees will show up 15-20 minutes early for work, even if they don't have extra work to do, because showing up early gives the image of being a hard worker. Most employees will stay late until the boss leaves, even if they don't have any work, this gives the image of being a hard worker. This applies mostly to office jobs, as it's not as easy to feign effort when it comes to manual labour.
Let me give some examples. When making my schedule at the city office, my coworker was trying to distribute my time evenly across schools according to how many classes they had within that school versus days of the month. The math really isn't that complicated, and in the West, someone would just make an Excel spreadsheet to do it automatically if you punched in how many days of work there were in a month, semester, or whatever.
But my coworker was grueling over this simple math for about 1.5 hours, constantly talking to herself, and making it seem like it was an impossible job, because she had nothing else to do, and had to be there for 10 hours, so she wanted to keep looking busy as long as possible, even if the effort wasn't legitimate. She demanded that she'd have to recheck my work after I did it for her in 5 minutes.
This is the source of 窶愿??堙ｨﾅ陳ｾ (hitorigoto -- self-talking). This is why you get people shouting 窶堙ｦ窶堙≫?堋ｵ (yossh!) after they finish a task. It's not any source of personal satisfaction most of the time, but rather the indication to everyone else that they put some effort in. Same thing behind the people who talk to themselves mid-task.
This is why you see teachers taking 20 minutes to get themselves tea or coffee, while doing the fake feet-shuffling run. Because it makes them look busy, even if they're just getting coffee.
There's nothing efficient about that. There's no real work ethic about that. It's an ethic about looking like you're working more than anything. At the company I was employed at before Japan (a printer software company), the hours were very flexible, and people would work 6 hour days sometimes. But for those 6 hour days they wouldn't take lunch, they wouldn't take breaks, and they wouldn't screw around on the internet like the rest of us mere mortal employees. So while it may look crappy that they're getting into work at 11am, it certainly didn't affect their work ethic or productivity. It only hurt their chances for promotion (because while that works for an engineer, managers need to work longer hours to deal with problems that come up with their projects).
I guess it depends on the type of work. The effort put into the service industry is far more genuine than the effort put into the office/salaried-worker fields. The former is far harder to fake (though you'll see people in the service industry wiping down random services at the supermarket, or standing at a random counter with no customers when the registers have 20 minute lines at them). It seems busy in an office until you actually pay attention to what people are doing, then you realize that the long hours are just a front for extreme slackerdom otherwise.
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
- 385
Tokyo-K1 said:
And what countries do you take among "developed western countries" for comparison ? Just the UK, or maybe also the US ? In how many "developed western countries" have you lived and worked, and how long have you lived and worked in Japan ?
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
- 385
Pierrot le Fou said:
Thanks for explaining something I had realised but couldn't put into words better myself (including your examples).
I often teach in offices around Nihombashi-Otemachi-Marunouchi (the Wall Street of Japan) and I have been able to observe the same, even in this holy shrine of the big Japanese corporations. When I ask how was their day, some of my student do not even attempt to conceal that as they had little to do, they just pretended to be busy, doing things like surfing the Internet. These are people who have a 9am to 5pm job, but are forced to stay in the office until 8pm or 10pm, because some of their coworkers or the CEO are still in the office. So the stereotype of the hard working Japanese salaryman is only partially true. Some do work hard, but many just pretend. In the same companies, I have students who have to stay all night to finish their work from time to time. They are not in the same department as those who pretend to work hard, though.
Another student of mine who works for a major American company and has worked in the US too, compared the ways of working between the two countries as follow : "In the US, people try to work quickly so that they can go home early. Those who are left in the office after 6pm are considered 'slow-workers' and are probably looked down as incompetent. In Japan, one must arrive at work before one's boss/supervisor, and not leave before them, otherwise they are seen as lazy, even if they have nothing left to do. So, it is better to work slowly or pretend to be working just for appearances' sake".
GaijinPunch
遠いから行きません
- 25 Nov 2004
- 1,275
- 34
I'm not talking about the actual value of the work (or lack thereof) the average Japanese does at a job, but the dedication (even if it's b/c they have no choice) is much higher, and in customer-based businesses the service is leaps and bounds above anything here.
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
- 385
I have split the discussion about service in Japan.
Spouse Visa
I came here on a spouse visa and the first post here hits on many good points that can be applied to other situations just like mine. The culture here was way different than anything I've ever been told or seen. That applies to the job or at home with family.
To me, the majority of the older people still have the "6 faced, 3 hearted" stereotype going. They will lie to cover their asses and do it knowing you don't know Japanese or can't defend yourself if your not there routine. Again this applies to work or family. However, the majority of younger people are just like us from the U.S. Things are changing from what I see. Learning Japanese will help eliminate many many problems here so I highly recommend it.
I came here on a spouse visa and the first post here hits on many good points that can be applied to other situations just like mine. The culture here was way different than anything I've ever been told or seen. That applies to the job or at home with family.
To me, the majority of the older people still have the "6 faced, 3 hearted" stereotype going. They will lie to cover their asses and do it knowing you don't know Japanese or can't defend yourself if your not there routine. Again this applies to work or family. However, the majority of younger people are just like us from the U.S. Things are changing from what I see. Learning Japanese will help eliminate many many problems here so I highly recommend it.
senseiman
先輩
- 24 Jun 2003
- 679
- 47
Furono said:
I have to say I don't think this is fair. Perhaps you've had a different experience from mine, but I don't recall having ever been lied to by older people while I was in Japan, and I certainly didn't get the feeling that younger people were any more or less trustworthy.
On the other hand, I only had a couple of bosses who were older (over 50) and they were both really nice, and the rest of my relations with older people weren't such as to necessitate them lying to me to cover their asses, so maybe my experience is more limited.
Just out of curiosity, what situations did old people lie to you in?
- 17 Sep 2005
- 6,017
- 1,970
I have never once encountered such behavior in Japan. Even when I didn't know much Japanese, I never found such behavior.Furono said:
At the time, I did sometimes encounter weird Japanese men who for some reason thought it fun to talk to me. I think they wanted something, but I was always wary and lucky enough to avoid any trouble. Even so, this happened only a few times.
Pierrot le Fou
十人黄色
- 14 Oct 2005
- 61
- 14
I think it depends on where you live. I definitely know plenty of more rural foreigners who get their trash sorted through, get berated for things that aren't their fault (especially involving trash -- if a bag isn't sorted properly or doesn't have a name, they get the blame even if they didn't do it). However, even that isn't some sort of universal truth.
The only thing that I would even come close to consider blatant lying would be when people give me bad directions because they don't know how to get there but don't want to look like they have no clue, or things of that nature -- they mean well, I s'pose, even if the end product isn't so good.
Most of the older people I have met in my time here have been spectacularly kind to me. Far more kind than many of the middle-aged and younger people. I think part of that is because they are retired, have little to do, and I am a source of endless entertainment beyond what's usually offered at the local kominkan (public hall).
The only thing that I would even come close to consider blatant lying would be when people give me bad directions because they don't know how to get there but don't want to look like they have no clue, or things of that nature -- they mean well, I s'pose, even if the end product isn't so good.
Most of the older people I have met in my time here have been spectacularly kind to me. Far more kind than many of the middle-aged and younger people. I think part of that is because they are retired, have little to do, and I am a source of endless entertainment beyond what's usually offered at the local kominkan (public hall).
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
GaijinPunch
遠いから行きません
- 25 Nov 2004
- 1,275
- 34
mikecash said:
C'mon, man. Missed?!
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
- 385
Pierrot le Fou said:
When I first came to Japan, I stayed with my wife's family for a while. Her grand-mother would always assume that I was the "culprit" everytime something was not done her way in the house, that one kind of rubbish was in the wrong rubbish bin, or that the fridge was not properly closed. Most of the time it wasn't me, but my wife of her mother. When it was me, I couldn't understand what I had done "wrong". For example, the dishcloth was folded the wrong way, or the towel was placed back on the "wrong" towel holder, or something stupid like that. Of course that was mostly caprices of grandma, but I did feel that she was trying all she could to accuse me of something just because I was a foreigner. She never doubted that it could have be her own daughter or grand-daugher who could have done one of the "misdeeds". My wife said that when her former boyfriend visited the house, she never behaved like that. Indeed, whenever another Japanese visited the house, she was always much more polite and friendly than with me. It hasn't changed in 4 years. Nevertheless, unlike the grandma, my wife's mother has always been very kind (and visibly sympathetic toward me in the face of her mother's uncompromising fussiness and over-suspiciousness).
I cannot judge a whole age segment on this personal experience, but this combined with other negative experiences with older women in my neighbourhood, certainly helped give me a very bad image of elderly Japanese women.
