Should Japan Abolish Kanji?

[nice gaijin]

does anyone else see the point he's trying to make? Am I missing something? 古い新聞読めなくても「Evil」とは言わないなぁ。 I personally wouldn't want to see Japan abandon kanji, as I think (all historical and sentimental reasons aside) it's an important and useful aspect of the language. But that's not to say that Koreans are necessarily worse off for it. If not being able to read an old newspaper is the best example you can come up with, that's a pretty weak argument.

Especially considering many English speakers probably can't read old newspapers (maybe not 40 years, but go back far enough and you'll see a difference); even though the characters used are still the same, their usage and vocabulary is very different than today. Languages evolve over time, and it does you no good to paint it as "good" or "evil."

 

[caster51]

does anyone else see the point he's trying to make? Am I missing something? 古い新聞読めなくても「Evil」とは言わないなぁ。 I personally wouldn't want to see Japan abandon kanji, as I think (all historical and sentimental reasons aside) it's an important and useful aspect of the language. But that's not to say that Koreans are necessarily worse off for it. If not being able to read an old newspaper is the best example you can come up with, that's a pretty weak argument.
Especially considering many English speakers probably can't read old newspapers (maybe not 40 years, but go back far enough and you'll see a difference); even though the characters used are still the same, their usage and vocabulary is very different than today. Languages evolve over time, and it does you no good to paint it as "good" or "evil."

よく読めよ evil practice
evil - Words - Japanese Dictionary Tangorin
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/je/32731/m0u/へ/
was english changed with some political purpose?
was english changed in such short term?
what for?
i think if they abolished kanji with some purpose and korean language is getting poor, i would say Evil practice.
If they did not naturally need the Chinese character, it is possible to understand.
that is why the korean themselves feel so..

韓国の学校教育で漢字廃止・ハングル専用政策がとられるようになったのは、1968年春からである。漢字廃止政策以後の韓国では、教科書をはじめ、新聞・雑誌・書籍からレストランのメニューなどに至るまで、漢字はほとんどその姿を消してしまっている。
韓国語は漢字を廃止したために、日常的にはあまり使われない、しかし概念や理念を表す言葉、各種の専門用語など、伝統的に漢語で表されてきた重要な言葉の多くが、一般には次第に使われなくなっていった。各種の評論・研究論文や新聞・雑誌の記事に、総じて書き言葉の世界に、語彙の恐ろしいまでの貧困化がもたらされたのである。とくに文学の面では、散文でも詩文でも、伝統的にあった豊かな漢字表現の大部分を失ってしまった。

They have erased even the fact only 50 years ago.
because they can not read.
It is also possible to make a new history for them by authorities

 

[butakun]

caster I read that link very well but still can't quite see what makes it evil... Exactly what Japanese expression did you have in mind when you said evil practices? If I had to guess, I take it that you meant something to the effect of "detrimental effects"?

EDIT: Now I see that you added that last part in your post, ok, so perhaps you are saying there is an "evil" intention behind the eradication of Chinese characters from Korean orthography, like, eradicating any influence of Chinese language and perhaps Japanese occupation? Am I guessing too much?

 

[caster51]

evil practice in Japanese 弊害
I understand what nice gaijin wants to say well.
he may say to choose suitable word.

however i never say a korean is an evil
I never use racist word for the korean
I said to abolish the kanji in politics that there are many evil practices.
becasue i feel it is not good for the korean
many Japanese chatted and felt exactly like her book
Amazon product ASIN 4569695183i chatted with many korean for 4 years.
So am I though it is through web translating


Should Japan Abolish Kanji?
It is just evil thing for the japanese and japanese language, too


evil....
for example akumu 悪夢(evil dream) nightmare

 

[orochi]

No way should kanji be abolished. It's fun-mazing!

 

[bmoddo]

My opinion, as a student of the Japanese language is that Kanji delivers an incredible richness to the language and it would be a terrible loss to remove Kanji.

Yes, it makes the learning process harder; even for the Japanese, but what Kanji brings to the language is an incredible depth and flexibility for expression. To lose this would be a great loss.

b.moddo

 

[a51ts4]

I can't give an opinion because I haven't attempted to learn any kanji, and don't yet fully understand the language.

It seems, from some peoples point of view that the language would be meaningless without it, and I guess that would hold true.

Then again, I'm sure if they did get rid of it, eventually everyone would get used to it.

Personally, I wouldn't care as long as I could get along fine with just kana and some kanji. If kanji is really that important, they might as well just go to chinese haha

 

[nice gaijin]

よく読めよ evil practice
evil · Tangorin Japanese Dictionary
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/je/...m0u/%E3%81%B8/
was english changed with some political purpose?
was english changed in such short term?
what for?
i think if they abolished kanji with some purpose and korean language is getting poor, i would say Evil practice.
If they did not naturally need the Chinese character, it is possible to understand.
that is why the korean themselves feel so..
They have erased even the fact only 50 years ago.
because they can not read.
It is also possible to make a new history for them by authorities

This is a good example of why it's a bad idea to communicate through a dictionary. 弊害 is "evil practice" in the dictionary, but when you use it in such a sentence it loses your intended meaning, and makes it sound like you're talking about sin or something. It's not your fault that there's a poor definition, but when that's all we have to go on, it's very easy to misunderstand your intention. Especially just saying "evil practices" without really giving any examples to illustrate what you're trying to say make it even easier to interpret the wrong way.

Caster51さんはそんなに概念を表すために漢字に頼るな ら、ポストに日本語の文章も含めてください。Maybe that way we can prevent this sort of mix-up in the future.

Funny, this incident makes a strong point for why kanji is an important part of Japanese and should stay in the language.

 

[caster51]

Caster51さんはそんなに概念を表すために漢字に頼るな ら、ポストに日本語の文章も含めてください。Maybe that way we can prevent this sort of mix-up in the future.

I am talking about korean language in english
the concept about something can be express in english well instead of kanji.
because Engilsh is not only phonetic symbol to read.

 

[nice gaijin]

i am tlaking about korean language.
the concept can be express in english well instead of kanji.
because Engilsh is not only phonetic symbol

And I'm talking about your insistence on relying on online translations to try to get your point across, when it clearly doesn't.

 

[bmoddo]

From the perspective of someone who has only been studying Japanese for just about a year; that's me; I must say that I admire the playfulness that the thoughtful use of Kanji in Japanese prose is to be marveled at.

In English we rely on a much different approach where it comes to playing with what we write and say and in many regards English, while capable of great detail and a richness of expressive capabilities is, for all it's potential still not as nimble as Kanji can be in skilled hands and minds.

Now, before you burst a vessel sitting there reading this, I must point out that I am also fluent in French and have studied Old English; albeit while at university. Suffice it to say that I really rather enjoy languages then and that no, I'm not bashing my native tongue; though it may seem it.

In the right hands a language and here I mean any language, is a powerful and subtle tool. In my hands Kanji would be at best a blunt instrument; given my current command or lack thereof of in the Japanese language and Kanji. I am however quite capable of wielding my native language with intent and am able to use it as the vehicle of my ideas in an acceptably productive fashion.

In the hands of a person; native Japanese or someone with a fluency in the written and spoken forms of the language, I'm quite sure that Kanji can and is used with the subtle precision that any native or fluent speaker would make effort to bring to their efforts.

Is it for everyone? No, I venture to say no and I would say that the same question ought to be asked of English and French since, by observation there are many who simply can't be bothered to learn more about their native tongues to make good use of them.

This is not the best thing I've ever written and on reflection I ought to have written it out offline and spent some time arranging the structure, grammar and punctuation but this is off the cuff so, in for a penny, in for a pound!

b.moddo

 

[caster51]

And I'm talking about your insistence on relying on online translations to try to get your point across, when it clearly doesn't.

for example. there is a such article in korean newspaper

한국어문교육연구회는 지난 95년 큰 화제가 됐던 [국내 최대

수혈식 석실 발굴] [고속철도 경주 역사 예정지]

등에 대해 한글만으로 표기할 때 그 의미를 이해하는지를 물었다.


40명의 답변자 중 제대로 뜻을 알고 있는 사람은 하나도 없었고

대답한 사람의 경우도 "수혈식 석실은 사람을 죽여서 그 피를 무덤

안에 넣은 것" "경주에 있는 역사 유물을 한데 모아 보관하는

예정지"라는 기상천외한 응답이었다.

【魚拓】廃越室企,紫噺旋 税紫社搭 走舌 - 1去 昔斗掛敢什 繕識翫陳

[국내 최대 수혈식 석실 발굴] [고속철도 경주 역사 예정지]
korean can not understand it even in Hangul.

【国内最大竪穴式石室発掘】 【高速鉄道慶州駅舎予定地】by chinese character

韓国語文教育研究会は 去る95年 大きい話題になった 【国内最大竪穴式石室発掘】 【高速鉄道慶州駅舎予定地】などに対して ハングルだけで表記する時、その意味を理解するかを尋ねた。

40人の返事者中 まともに意を知っている人は 一つもなかったし 答えた人の場合も 「竪穴式石室は人を殺して、その血を墓の中に入れたこと」 「慶州にある歴史遺物を一ヶ所に集めて、保管する予定地」という 奇想天外な応答だった。

To understand meaning in hungle sentence , it can do nothing but guess before and behind sentences.

I asked the korean" how to understand homonym in sentence"
he said you must guess it from context.
ir means there is a word that can not guess..

合議、合意 are homonym in hangul.
There is a word that doesn't understand from the context.

BTW
the korean always says a japanese does not have a 概念。
most Japanese ask "what 概念 it is ?"
korean 概念 meaning is changed ^^, it is OK whatever

 

[caster51]

according to korean newspaper
国語の実力は語彙力が基本だ。ハングル学会の『大辞典』に収録された16万4125語の語彙のうち、漢字語は8万5527語で、52.1%を占める。また、小学校の国語の教科書の55%、医学や哲学などの専門用語の95%が漢字語だ。漢字を知らなければ、語彙力や学習能力を高めることはできない。ハングル表記は同じでも、漢字でどう書くかによって意味がまったく異なる単語も無数にある。例えば、韓国語で「サギ」と読む漢字語の単語は「士気」をはじめ22語、同じく「チョンギ」と読む漢字語は「電気」をはじめ18語もある

【魚拓】【萬物相】韓国の漢字教育 | Chosun Online | 朝鮮日報

as for as a word 「高速鉄道慶州駅舎予定地] in Hangul, You must expand the range of before and after of the sentence that this word group is included in to understand only in the Hangul Alphabet.
Moreover, this work is not "Sentences are understood", and "The word in the sentence is understood. "


They read like lack of understanding with the meaning of such a word group misunderstood.
The point that the meaning is not suitable, the contradicted point, and the point that doesn't understand add a selfish, suitable interpretation to the word group and sentences that were able to be understood.

When the image only for Hangul is expressed in Japanese, it might often be said, "Sentences written only by the hiragana". However, I do not think that it is suitable.
The Hangul Alphabet was made to read a kanji
To write a Korean language, it is not made.
therefore,It is not suitable to compare Hangul to the hiragana.

 

[nice gaijin]

for example. there is a such article in korean newspaper
【魚拓】廃越室企,紫噺旋 税紫社搭 走舌 - 1去 昔斗掛敢什 繕識翫陳
[국내 최대 수혈식 석실 발굴] [고속철도 경주 역사 예정지]
korean can not understand it even in Hangul.
【国内最大竪穴式石室発掘】 【高速鉄道慶州駅舎予定地】by chinese character
韓国語文教育研究会は 去る95年 大きい話題になった 【国内最大竪穴式石室発掘】 【高速鉄道慶州駅舎予定地】などに対して ハングルだけで表記する時、その意味を理解するかを尋ねた。
40人の返事者中 まともに意を知っている人は 一つもなかったし 答えた人の場合も 「竪穴式石室は人を殺して、その血を墓の中に入れたこと」 「慶州にある歴史遺物を一ヶ所に集めて、保管する予定地」という 奇想天外な応答だった。
To understand meaning in hungle sentence , it can do nothing but guess before and behind sentences.
I asked the korean" how to understand homonym in sentence"
he said you must guess it from context.
ir means there is a word that can not guess..
合議、合意 are homonym in hangul.
There is a word that doesn't understand from the context.

How do you understand a homonym in spoken Japanese?

BTW
the korean always says a japanese does not have a 概念。
most Japanese ask "what 概念 it is ?"
korean 概念 meaning is changed ^^, it is OK whatever

Um, I love generalities as much as the next guy, but what are you talking about here?

according to korean newspaper
国語の実力は語彙力が基本だ。ハングル学会の『大辞典』に収録された16万4125語の語彙のうち、漢字語は8万5527語で、52.1%を占める。また、小学校の国語の教科 書の55%、医学や哲学などの専門用語の95%が漢字語だ。漢字を知らなければ、語彙力や学習能力を高める ことはできない。ハングル表記は同じでも、漢字でどう書くかによって意味がまったく異なる単語も無数にある。例えば、韓国語 で「サギ」と読む漢字語の単語は「士気」をはじめ22語、同じく「チョンギ」と読む漢字語は「電気」をはじ め18語もある

sounds like a language ripe for おやじギャグ

They read like lack of understanding with the meaning of such a word group misunderstood.
The point that the meaning is not suitable, the contradicted point, and the point that doesn't understand add a selfish, suitable interpretation to the word group and sentences that were able to be understood.

oooook I'm not going to even try to read that again. Jesus Christ.

When the image only for Hangul is expressed in Japanese, it might often be said, "Sentences written only by the hiragana". However, I do not think that it is suitable.
The Hangul Alphabet was made to read a kanji
To write a Korean language, it is not made.
therefore,It is not suitable to compare Hangul to the hiragana.

I don't claim to be an authority on Hangul, are you saying it's more like Zhùyin Fúhào (bopomofo) in Taiwan?

 

[caster51]

How do you understand a homonym in spoken Japanese?

speaking and reading are quite different.
so you can not understand that ....

Um, I love generalities as much as the next guy, but what are you talking about here?

概念 is something's concept.
concept of space, whatever..

sounds like a language ripe for おやじギャグ

they dont understand おやじギャグ in hungle as silly pun, either

you can make おやじギャグ with using 造船 and 朝鮮 by hangul
They do not understand its 落ち

 

[nice gaijin]

speaking and reading are quite different.
so you can not understand that ....

That was a rhetorical question. You don't think Japanese is contextual?

概念 is something's concept.
concept of space, whatever..

sigh... I know what it means. When you say "the korean always says a japanese does not have a 概念。" who is saying this? I haven't heard this before, and don't know what you're referring to.

they dont understand おやじギャグ in hungle as silly pun, either

with so many homonyms, you're telling me there are no Korean puns?

Earlier, you said that hangul was invented to read kanji, but that doesn't seem to be true... Taiwan's Zhùyin Fúhào (bopomofo) seems to fit that bill much more, though you don't see many people calling for that to replace hanzi in Taiwan. You also said it can't be compared to kana, but how can you not compare one phonetic writing system to another?

 

[caster51]

That was a rhetorical question. You don't think Japanese is contextual?

of couese If there is a pronoun,,
however there is few in vocabularies because of Kanji.

with so many homonyms, you're telling me there are no Korean puns?

I told you can make 造船、朝鮮。韓国 勧告。寒流 韓流such lke homonyms in korean
however they could not understand it like these 韓国に勧告した 韓国は 姦国だ
合議に合意した。韓流は寒流

a kanji has a concept, I mean a meaning
for example 既視感........... 既(already) 視(seen) 感(feeling)
even Japanese elemetary school kids can undestand it
So, even if you did not know the word, you understand what the word means. In Korean, in the other hand, it's just series of meaningless sound if you did not know the word.

 

[Putrefaction]

As some other people said, so this may be redundant, it makes Japanese SO MUCH EASIER to read. The meanings are clearer for homonyms, and you don't have to read a huge hiragana line that can be done in one character or one character and fewer hiragana.

(Plus I already know 600 so quit it!)

 

[butakun]

Wait, I thought an often-repeated argument comparing Korean and Japanese regarding Kanji abolishment was something like this:

1) In Korean, a Chinese character = a syllable, and since a Hangul character = a syllable, the number of characters needed to express a given idea doesn't change.
2) There are far fewer homonyms in Koreans, compared to Japanese, therefore much less chance of confusion.

I don't know anything about Korean language, other than an extremely limited knowledge about how Hangul characters work...

 

[justin]

It would be a great shame if Japan abolished kanji. It is an important part of Japan's wonderful culture. To abolish it would rob future generation of not just a form of writing, but a form of art.

 

[MadamePapillon]

I think I once read somewhere that the literacy rate in Japan is like 99% (or something like that) so I guess that speaks for itself. However, students DO have to study their own written language for years and years to get a firm grasp on it which is far more than an alphabetical language where most people have it firmly down by the age of 16 (give or take).
It takes a lot more effort to learn kanji because as a friend of mine once said "you either know it or you don't", you can't just make an educated guess. Not knowing kanji myself I couldn't say how much more effective it is as a reading tool than my own language or if it enhances the readers understanding better. (Maybe it does, it would explain why western books are so many pages while Japanese books are always really thin)
It is a beautiful looking written language but not the most accessible or easy to learn. But I say if it works for them then why not keep it.
.... Just realize this thread has been inactive for a month.

 

[SSJ Light]

As much as it would be difficult for me to learn the language as a non-japanese native I don't believe they should abolish kanji. I for one find the kanji adds a nice essence to Japan. And Japan has faired well with Kanji so if it isn't broken don't fix it.

 

[Dogen Z]

This is not a real issue. It's just some daydreaming wish of people who are too lazy or don't have the mental agility to learn kanji.

If you ever tried reading something completely in kana, you would have an awful time trying to decipher its meaning unless it was a simple sentence like "See Dick run." And all romaji would just hurt everyone's eyes.

So not to worry, it's not going to happen.

 

[Grampus]

the kanji for me adds to the whole mysterious and mystical nature to the country for me... if i could read it as the strict 27 characters that we use, it would definately seem less magical. i want to have to work to be able to read this fantastic language...!

Which 27 characters do you use? My first language is English, and we only have 26.

 

[turtle]

Without Kanji, the Japanese wouldn't even be able to read their own Buddhist scriptures. That would be sad.

Korea has pretty much abandoned Chinese characters, but it's also 50% Christian.