Re: POLL - Can South Korea militarily defeat Japan?

The South Korean troops are not trained by american trainers anymore. The ROK training level has already exceeded US standards, they mostly train alongside of them instead of under them. No matter what your MOS is in the Korean military you were extremely well-trained in the art of warfare, with or without good equipment. The last time the US trained the ROKs were for the their deployment in Iraq, and that was because its an unfamiliar terrain for us.

In fact I know that some US special ops guys went through the korean special forces school. They go through everything what the koreans go through, except they do not get beaten up and they're are fed better.

I think the ROK military is one of the best-trained if not the best-trained in asia. According to some US officers and enlisted I know, they said the ROKS are the best-trained troops they have ever seen. There was also a report from a german advisor who inspected the korean troops back in the 70s and he said in his own words: "If we had soldiers like the South Korean army we might have actually conquered the world". This comment coming from a advisor whose country had previously been the most superbly-trained at its time, is the greatest praise ever given to the ROK army in my opinion.

Our military also had extensive experiance in not only in vietnam, but we lost 10,000 commandos in north korea.
 
This is why I think that the ROK army is stronger than Japan's or even Taiwan's. Yes, true, the Taiwanese are strict with their military, but the SDF is not. True, there are rules and regulations, but training is not that extensive. After all, they're DEFENSE forces.
 
my opinion

lets look at the basic........s.korea cannot defeat japan because of the size, population and their manpower.... :-) :-)
 
Welcome, Chino! =)

That may be true in some cases, however, the ROK army is very powerful. Then again, so is the SDF.
 
Again, Korea can't invade Japan. And Japan can't invade Korea.

As for the population thing, generally you would need a minimum number of 3:1 advantage to successfully conquer a country, and that is just to assume that the defensive military is a lot weaker then the invading army.
 
Overlord, Korea won't invade Japan. And Japan won't invade Kora.

However, this is a speculation thread. What would happen if they did?
 
Hi, I am south korean, I was Korean army soldier of 8th Infantry Division
Thank about you said that we are well-trained Soldiers... ^^

I was surprised by this post. and I read this interesting your saying..
(sorry, I cannot write english well..)

um, first, I think about this, Both country don't have abillity of invasion. Because Both countries were controlled by USA strategy of East asia. S. Korea has big Army(armor, Inf, Artillery....) and Airforce's Old models fighters(F5, F4), new model(F16, KF16, F15k). but Korean Navy cannot landing operation and aggressive operation without Usa's support. Korean navy has not enough warship, and LST.

It's the same thing on japan self defence force. Japan navy has more powerful than korean navy, but Japan do not has abillity of landing operation, and Weapons of navy, air force(for example, cruise missle, anti radar missle, blah, blah). but In all countries of world, very Few countries has this abillity(almost only USA), and enough Infantry, armor unit...

Why Two countries have unblaced military Power? because Usa did not want two countries independent military power, and Two country's military power's target was Soviet, and China.

Now, for stability of northern east asia(USA is not Atlantic nation, now, Usa's National interests's basis is Asia and Pacific ocean. by Joshph Nye(International Politic scholar of USA)), USA worry about new Power of China, China's economic development and expansion possibillity is Very dangerous to stability of east asia.

So in spite of Cold war was over, USA need two alliance nation. Two Nation's army's target was Communism's expansion. now Target is China's Expansion.

So Usa made Two nation's army to unbalance power. so Both nations cannot Invade each others.. Korea has too Big strong land army(4, 5th in the world..), but weak old models of navy, and airforce. Japan has powerful navy(best in asia(not usa)) but do not has aggressive abillity, one Neocon's politic scholar said "Never worry about Japan will be past empire.. They do not has aggressive military abillity"

so If South korea of japan invade anothers, Invader must be looser..

But, we think about mind of both nation's people.
do you know 'Dokdo' that you called 'Takesima'(I do not want politic argument)
If japan invade and occupy 'Dokdo', Korean people must fight until island get back however too much blood stream our land, sea.. Korean will not give up.

but. japanese? If korea do not give up 'dokdo', Will Japanese declare a war? however too much blood stream?

Which one is better? I don't know. but Korea's 5000years history was filled by forign invasions. "ナ?テ? annexed ancient Korea nation " chosun", but Korean people did not give up, they fought and get back their land, Powerful chinese nation "ナ津」窶ーツ? defeated.

chinese reunification nation 'テ、@' falled because defeating by 'Kokuryo"(korean northen nation). Succesor of 'テ、@', '窶懌?? losed her emporor because defeating by kokuryo. Postal horse race's nation '遼' defeated by 'Korea', sucessor of 'kokuryo',

and Mongol, succesors of Genghis Khan invaided korean penisula. we lost all land. but korean people did not give up until 40 years. and korean got back perfect indefendance when mongol was weaken.

I do not know japanese history perfect. but I know Korea had history of fight to invasion. so Korean people hate invasion very much. and always they will choose war. not peace on forign controll.

But possibillity of war between south korea and japan is very low. If Korean penisular and japan island are connected by land, Korea's victory can be true. but that's impossible. so Invader will be looser. anyway, If both nation will fight, Both nation's intrests will be damaged very much. both nations economic' basis is Trade. both nation have Very well trained, best quality submarine fleet.
 
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Welcome, lemiel! =)

The Dokdo/Takeshima arguement was a good one. Currently, I think it is being loosely "shared" by both nations. I think both Japan and the ROK are smart enough to not wage war over a small island.
 
In Position of Japan, 'Dokdo' is not Big problem. But Korean's Position is different.

When Korea was colony of japan, korea lost two region, Dokdo and ナ?テ披?懌?。(korean Chinese living land near 窶ケg窶氾堕湘 and 窶氾俄?扣ツ湘 and テシK龍ツ江ツ湘 in present). Japan took Dokdo, sold ナ?テ披?懌?。 to China because japan wanted to get right of setting up railroad in Manchuria.

when korea independanted, we got back Dokdo, but could not get back ナ?テ披?懌?。.

Many Korean think that Japan want to be Empire, to occupy korea because Japan say "Our Annex of korea was Lawfullness", "Takesima will be our island", "ナ渡ナ坦ヒ? ??窶「w was unforced prostitution".

On pragmaticism, Korea and Japan will be strategic alliances because two nations want stability of Eastern north asia. but Still our elder people that lived in Japan empire's violence and young people disbelieve Japan.

Korea lost Big Land of ナ?テ披?懌?。 by Japan. If USA would sell okinawa to Taiwan, Hokkaido to Soviet, What do you think about USA? Korean lost Many things in Japan empire. school girl, unmarried woman(my grandmother married quickly because fear to be sex slave) was made sex slave by Japan Colony government. Our young man, and fathers was choosen Soldier, forced worker and died in Japan's war.

so Korean never recognize that their land(Dokdo) can be a subject of negotiation.
If Japan forced to recognize? Korean choose war. Korean hate war. But they Hate Imperialism more. although Japanese think It's not Imperialism, People(korea, china) that had a history of Japan's invasion do not think same.

I think that most of japan are good, and love peace. they do not understand chinese, korean's saying "Japanese were Invader of Imperialism. They can be Evil invader some day." why? Korean and chinese were victim by Japan empire. at that time. Japan people were Victim by Japan empire and military clique. But Japan empire's leader and Military clique were japanese too.

If japanese want to understand problem of 'Dokdo', they must learn history of '36years of Korean colony.' It's not simple territory negotiation of small island.
 
I understand, leimeil.

Are there any inhabitants of Ullung-do, the closest ROK island to Dokdo.
 
It's obvious

Korea lost against Japan in the past, I recall.
But NOW, Korea can easily flush Japan in less than 2 days.
Furthermore,Japaneses know that they have no friends in Asia.
 
Biggereyes - what about the Chinese Republic? Unlike the PRC and the ROK, there haven't been any flag-burning incidents there lately.
 
Taiwan, Succesor of 窶吮??窶ーテ倪?督ッナ。ツ? do not forget history of Japan's war crime(For example, Nanking massacre), Taiwan goverment protested about Japan middle school History textbook's falsified history. They think same thing about Japan's war crime.

I think Japan can be Leader of East asia. But neighbor nation do not want that. Neighbor nation of japan(not russia) were Victim by Japan's imperialism. Japan has strong economic, military, political power in asia, But No nation believe japan.

at that time. German did war crime, too. But They did not like japan. Now, nobody Burn flag of german. German's historical rival, France is best friend of germany. what's the difference?

Past crime must be forgotten, be forgiven. we must advance to future together.

But, If past assaulter do not recognize his fault, do not apologize to Vitim,
Can victim people forgive assaulter?

It's mental problem that assaulter can not understand.
If japan say "Sex slave? Nanking massacre? War? Imperialism? they were nothing but past subject. We must advance to future. apology is unnecessary."
Japan can not get true friendly neighbor nation forever in east asia.
 
I am actualist about international politic. so I think Korea must be good friend of Japan. two nation's same political goal, Stability of Asia. We must ready possibility of China's Expansional desire. and Joseph Nye, Scholar of international politic said "East asia, In long-ranged vision, must advanced to making local security council, like EU, but, For stability against outbreak possibility, USA's alliances and expeditionary army must remain for sufficient time."

For this long ranged vision, Japan's attitude about past history is very important. East asia is one of world economic core, will be core of world economic. But East asia is best possibility of Large scale war, too. If Nobody cannot believe Japan, How can local security council be made?
 
This is really not the time to fight for a bigger piece of pie...

lemiel said:
We must ready possibility of China's Expansional desire. and Joseph Nye, Scholar of international politic said "East asia, In long-ranged vision, must advanced to making local security council, like EU, but, For stability against outbreak possibility, USA's alliances and expeditionary army must remain for sufficient time."

For this long ranged vision, Japan's attitude about past history is very important. East asia is one of world economic core, will be core of world economic. But East asia is best possibility of Large scale war, too. If Nobody cannot believe Japan, How can local security council be made?
I believe that reflecting on the historical mistakes in the late 1800's by the Qing dynasty has the untmost significance. If China should make the regrettable choice to seize hegemony in a world that is changing rapidly towards economic, military blocs, eventually it can only lead to a repeat of the Opium War in all practicality. It's a big country, with a great number of highly inteligent individuals, yet we also know what happened during the Great Leap Forward.

This is the time to pool resources, to build up alliances, to share every chance to enhance the prospect of prosperity which requires stability and mutually beneficial relations. I am culturally open minded to both China, Japan, and their peoples; nevertheless, should any ultrnationalist partizan should succeed in taking power and begin to push their people towards expansionism, I am ready to struggle unto death to crush that attempt.

I am confident that I am not alone in my stand. Anything that stands in the way of a greater Asian alliance should be removed with the utmost sincerity and efficiency. A pan-Asian security council, with or without China, or even Japan, should be established as soon as possible. Latecomers can pay a reasonable admission fee or terms to that effect.
 
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Hey, lexico-san!

I agree with you, lemiel. Japan must apologize first. But I don't think they feel comfortable apologizing to countries which burn their flags in front of their embassies and hold protests every now and then. Taiwan doesn't, and look at the way that the Republic and Japan have been getting closer to apology and forgivement. True, the government on Taiwan is the Republic, but actual war crimes by the Japanese on Taiwan Island from 1895 through 1945 were not as hideous as in mainland China or Korea, or even Vietnam or the Phillipines.
 
Taiwan Governmet is concerned party of "Nanking massacre". the nationalist china were defeated by Communist china, and went to Taiwan. Nationalist Chinese army near Nanking were defeated by Japan empire, and Massacre started.

and, you say "Japan must apologize first. But I don't think they feel comfortable apologizing to countries which burn their flags in front of their embassies and hold protests every now and then"

First. Japan did not fomal apolozing about War crime in WW2 until now.
and Japan's nationalist politicion and scholar still say "It's not war crime. our annex, and sex slave was lawful. Our war inquired Great east asia's indefendence(by Japan's controll) and mutual prosperity"
Japan government say, "ヒ?「ナ?ツカ", not "ナステ凪?ーテ?apolozing)"

some our culture scholar say. "Japanese can not show clearness expression"
But, It can not be passed by Culture difference.

second. So, Chinese and korean has "indignation" to no-fomal apologizing of japan. someone use to has extreme furious mind. Our elder women that ware 窶愿コ窶怒ナ坦ヒ?藩??窶「w only want Fomal apologizing of Japan government. But they could not hear that.

Hiroshi, Your saying can liken this.
Man "A" raped woman "B",
Woman "B" wanted to hear Apologizing of Man "A",
But "A" said "I did not rape!! I am innocence!! It's lawful sex!!",
so Woman "B" was very anger. and Woman "B" abused to Man "B".

Man "C", Son of Man "B", shouted!!
"She abused!!! she is crimer too!! she is lack of common sense, non manner!! My father's crime become same grade of her crime!! so Our family do not need Apologizing to her!!! hurrah!!"

You do not have this thinking. But Elder women that were sex slave of Japan army think that.

If USA army's soldier rape japanese School girl in connivance of USA government, and USA government refuse demand that she and her family want to hear fomal apologizing.

so Japanese burn USA flag and abused to american.
Some USA people say "I don't think they feel comfortable apologizing to countries which burn their flags in front of their embassies and hold protests every now and then"

How will you think about his saying?
 
Lemiel, you are mentioning the nationalist scholars above. Those people are ignorant and reactionary. When you look at Japan, do you only see those nationalist scholars? Do you not see the social, political, and economic progress of the twentieth century?

True, the Republic of China saw massacres at Nanjing. But I am not talking about those. I am talking about the atrocities that occured on Taiwan Island from 1895 to 1945. There were not many.

Hasn't Japan apologized to the Republic of China? That is, the government on Taiwan Island? They have. And do you see any flag burning there? No, I haven't. Was there flag burning there before Japan apologized? No.
 
In common sense. If Jews burn flag of Nazi, and germeny, do Germeny's War crime disapear? If koran and chinese burn flag of japan, You think Japan's war crime disapear? It' not common sense.

First, Japan did not apologize before burning of Japan flag.

second, If japan governmet decide non apologizing because Burning of flag. It's nonsense. Why? Japan's war crimes were, Civilian massacre, living body test(biological weapon, penetration gunnery test, air pressure and temperature(frostbite and burn)) of 731unit(they became company of green cross after war), sex slave....

It can be same grade of Burning falg of japan? thousands our flags ware burned by japan when demonstration of Independance.

Even that fact, You think "Japan's war crime do not need apologizing to nation where it's people burned japan's flag."

But, Think that, IF some japanese burn korea flag, I can rape your sister and school girls, kill your family, has right of japanese living body test, take your property? It's common sense?

Yes. all japanese are not nationalist. But some nationalist say foolish talk and write "non war crime textbook of history". and japan government ministry member said somtimes same thing.

Does not Old woman that was sexslave by japan governmet(non apologizing) has "right of burning FLAG of JAPAN?"

If I am japanese, I never say that, and I am dishonorable my nation.
 
4 Japanese Prime ministers had apologized to Korea officially , but they came short when they performed due to some of the major famous Japanese politicians opposition. But anyways they apologized.(I cannot understand why Koreans never taught of this fact to the kids )

I agree that its a problem of Japanese politicians unabled to make their opinions into one to apologize to their Asian neighbours clearly.

but Korea has often problems too especialy when the Korean medias always focus on the negative parts of Japan and they intend to trivialize fact when Japan showed some positive and friendly gesture to Korea but Meanwhile Korean medias tend to exaggerate when Japanese politicians show some of their opinion that is likely to be shown and understood like enchanting their side about history.

In many Koreans view,they will never forgive Japan(even though Japan would do what Koreans demand) and many Koreans are succesfully branwashed by medias and nationalistic education.(I am not sell out but its true) but I personally found many Japanese having some difficulties or guilty towards Koreans and Chinese due to historical reason.

Both countries should change at the same time.
Korea has much problem too.( self-conscious view)

양국관계의 과거와 현재, 그리고 미래를 말함에 있어 본인은 일본정부를 대표하여 ツ「우리 나라가 한때 한국국민에게 식민지 지배로 인하여 크나큰 손해와 고통을 안겨준 역사적 사실을 겸허히 받아들이고, 이에 대해 뼈저린 반성과 마음으로 부터의 사과 말씀을 드립니다.
또한 이러한 심정은 많은 일본 국민이 공유하고 있다고 믿습니다. 대통령께서는 본인의 사과를 '진지하게 받아들이고 긍정적으로 평가하는 동시에, 양국이 지난날의 불행했던 역사를 극복하고 화해와 선린우호에 입각한 미래지향적인 관계를 발전시키기 위해 서로 노력하는 것이 시대적 요청'이라고 밝히셨습니다. 이를 한획으로 양국국민이 화해하고 교류의 물결이 높아지기를 바라마지 않습니다.

(오부치 총리 1998년 10월 8일)


가해자로서 깊이 반성하며 다시 한번 진사를 한국국민들에게 드립니다.(93년 11월 호소카와 총리)

통렬한 반성의 뜻을 표하며 진심으로 사죄를 한국국민들에게 드립니다.(95년 8월 무라야마 총리)

일본의 식민지 지배에 의해 한국의 국민에 대해서 다대한 손해와 고통을 주었던 것에 대해서 , 진심으로의 반성과 그리고 사과의 기분을 가지고 , 지금 , 다양한 전시나 시설이나 고문뒤를 봐서 , 이것은 총리대신으로서라고 하는 것보다도 오히려 , 한 명의 정치가로서 한 명의 인간으로서 이러한 고통과 희생을 강요당한 분들의 무념의 기분 , 이것을 잊어서는 안된다라고 생각했습니다.
(고이즈미 총리 2001년 10월 15일)
 
In 1982, Japan Land minister,"ツ渉シ窶禿ャツ幸窶佚? said
"Korean text book can be wrong, For example, Nobody know right or wrong about Korean history text that was written that japan invaded korea"

In 1986, education minister"Husio Masayuki" said first
"Do not say again! malcontent think about his nation did same thing in history"
and apologized saying. but he say"I remain my opinion in politicion"

and education minister"Husio Masayuki" said second
"If Invasion were, Victim people thought about their problem. at that time, Whoever made korea to colony, so Japan's invasion was not perfect true. Victim nation had blame and trouble" and he was fired.

and "Husio Masayuki" said third in 窶「ツカテ・Yツ春ツ秋
"at that time, Japan's politic was same imperialism with Western Power. but, it's unfairness that only japan was critisize. Korea was inability and weak. the half responsibility of "unhappy history between korea and japan" was Korean's"

in 1995, Watanabe michio, past diplomatic minister said
"Japan controlled korea. but there was not colonization in San Francisco's agreement, so Annex was lawful. It was not forced. If people call that, [Colonization], [Invasion war], It make many problem"

in 1996, the general affairs department minister "Eto dakami" said
"at that time, Japan's invasion was bad. but did good thing. Japanese did not think that korean were Colony people. and We did not steal cultural assets of korea, china(****, Too many cultural assets were stolen and robbed) like england, France."
and In Off the record "Murayama's apologizing was not true"

in Obuchi ministry, Japan agriculture minister "窶吮??ツ静ャツ渉コヒ?ェ" said
" Forced Sex slaves were not true."

In ツ渉ャツ静イツ照塚?ェテサツカ(koizmi junichiro)ministry, Japan education minister "nakayama" said
"In new textbook, Reducing "ナ渡ナ坦ヒ?藩??窶「w, sex slave", "Foced going together" was Good thing."

How do you think? Can you say "they are a few people in japan?"
They were minister, Politician in upper apologizing.
Can you think that true, fomal Apologizing?

In spite of that absurd of Leader of japan, Korean and chinese's Demand that Japan apologize fomal, truly was too excessive and persistencial?
 
I'm not trying to divert attention here...

so please don't get me wrong.
These are just my thoughts without deep thinking, but i'd like to run it by you.
Some of it may sound cold or theoretical, but the issue isn;t all hot blooded, and has universal significance for anyone interested, and that's why I am posting this.

1-1. A formal apology=accepting the willful act of damaging another person's natural rights.

1-2. A formal apology=accepting the moral responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another.

1-3. A formal apology=accepting the legal responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another. (The law could be international law, war criminal law, local govermental law,....not sure)

1-4. A formal apology=expressing one's intent that one will not violate again in the future.

1-5. A formal apology=has nothing to do with what one truly thinks or feels, but is only evidence of one's understanding of social (international) relationship in the positive sense.

1-6. A formal apology=will be insincere if one keeps changing one's apology to denial back and forth; this would be considered further damage.

Given number 1-6, wouldn't the muddy stand of the leading Japanese politicians who represent the people who voted them into the parties/offices make number 6 applicable?

A refusal to formally apologize would compute as follows.

2-1. A refusal to give a formal apology=denyingthe willful act of damaging another person's (people's) natural rights.

2-2. A refusal to give a formal apology=denying the moral responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another.

2-3. A refusal to give a formal apology=denying the legal responsibilities regarding the consequences of one's willful act of damaging another.

2-4. A refusal to give a formal apology=expressing one's intent that one may very well violate again in the future.

2-5. A refusal to give a formal apology=surely expresses one's lack of understanding of social (international) relationship in the positive sense.

2-6. A refusal to give a formal apology=further damage.

Number 6 is a heavy accusation that the Japanese nation is facing. In a court of law that would be construed as contempt of law and order.

Whether Japan wishes to be a team player or not is totally up to Japan. Just becaue Taiwan prefered not to burn the Japanese flag does NOT imply that people dissatasified with the insincere and whimsical attitudes and utterances of Japan's leadership CANNOT burn flags.

Can anyone here force it down the throat of a Jewish person that (s)he MUST/SHOULD/OUGHT TO/HAD BETTER forgive Hitler?
By the way this last rhetorical question holds true regardless of whether Germany apologized or not.
The very act of apologizing assumes the transferral of moral judgement to the victim in the absolute.
Otherwise why would we call it an apology?
 
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Its true that many flaws are found in Korean text book at the moment while I agree some of the major Japanese politicians have problems in terms of seeing their reign Korea for 36 years.

I hope you guys read these following articles.
These articles are very well written based on the fair view point and trustworthy materials that most Koreans do not know and will not read rationally.


딴지일보_21세기 명랑사회를 향하여
딴지일보_21세기 명랑사회를 향하여
딴지일보_21세기 명랑사회를 향하여
 
I personally think professor Lee Young hoon's view point about the result of Japanese reign of Korea exactly match with those 3 articles above.
I agree to his perspective at least about the economic result of Japanese reign of Korea. He collected many economic stats and materials during the period and made his result by his economic knowledges. (at least his method looks very respectable and cool to me)

Korean people should change its posture to treat this issue,otherwise it will be the minus result for us to make any decent debate with Japan.
Emotionally laming refutation could not help our side any more in the future.


이영훈 교수(53·서울대 경제학)가 요즘 부쩍 언론을 자주 탄다. 방송 토론에 나와 ツ'조선총독부는 강제로 위안부를 동원하지 않았다'는 발언으로 설화를 당했던 그가, 이번에는 ツ'일제가 조선의 토지와 쌀을 수탈했다는 국사 교과서 서술은 잘못이다'라고 주장해 또다시 파문을 일으켰다. 11월19일 서울에서 ツ'한·일 새로운 미래 구상을 위하여'란 제목으로 열린 ツ'한·일, 연대21' 발족 심포지엄 자리에 참석한 그는 ツ'국사 교과서에 그려진 일제의 수탈상과 그 신화성'이라는 논문을 발표했다. 이 모임에는 최원식·김 철·이영훈 교수와 고모리 요이치(ツ渉ャ窶氾鯛?配ヒ?ェ) 도쿄 대학 교수 등 한·일 양국의 탈민족주의·민족주의 좌파 성향 학자들이 함께하고 있다.
ツ'수구 꼴통이다' ツ'일본의 극우파나 하는 주장이다'. 그의 발언을 접한 일부의 반응을 종합하면 그렇다. 하지만 그는 수구나 극우와 거리가 멀다. 그는 이른바 ツ'안병직 사단'의 적자로서 낙성대경제연구소 소장을 맡고 있다. 안병직 사단은 안병직 전 서울대 교수를 필두로 1980년대 진보 학계의 한 축을 형성했던 경제사학자들을 일컫는 용어. 낙성대경제연구소는 국내의 소장 경제학자들뿐 아니라 나카무라 사토루(窶吮??窶伉コ窶廸) 미야지마 히로시(窶ケ{窶慷??敘スナスj) 등 일본의 마르크시스트 역사학자들과 함께 구한말부터 최근까지의 한국 경제사 연구를 진행하고 있다.
20여 년 동안 ツ'답사와 연구'에만 진력하던 중견 학자가 갑자기 다분히 의도와 확신을 가지고 사회적 발언을 계속하는 이유는 뭘까. <시사저널>은 인터뷰를 통해 파편적으로만 전해진 이영훈 교수의 주장을 차분히 들어보았다. 11월25일 서울대 사회과학대학의 한 방에서 그를 만났다.
국사 교과서 59종을 검토한 논문에 ツ'집단 기억에 의한 민족 설화'라는 표현까지 썼는데, 국사 교과서의 내용이 그토록 심각한가?
한 민족의 집단 기억이라는 것 중에는 따지고 보면 그리 오래되지 않은 과거에 생겨난 것이 많다. 그것도 몇몇 역사가들의 임의적인 역사 쓰기에서 비롯한 경우가 많다. 우리는 일본의 검인정 교과서가 개정될 때마다 사실 왜곡에 대해 항의한다. 그러나 우리 자신도 우리 역사에 대해 객관적이고 엄격한 시각과 이해가 필요하다.
교과서에서 토지 수탈 사례로 드는 토지조사사업은 어떤 것이었나?
일제는 대한제국을 강제 병합한 뒤 첫 사업으로 토지조사사업을 벌였다. 당시 총독부 2년 재정에 해당하는 비용을 특별 회계로 잡아놓고 1918년까지 진행했다. 전국의 토지를 측량하고, 소유권자를 조사했다.
국사 교과서에는 ツ'당시 농민들이 행정 절차에 미숙하고 소유권 의식이 없어서 절반 가량의 토지를 신고하지 않았고, 총독부는 미신고 토지를 국유지로 빼앗아 일본인에게 헐값에 불하해서 우리 나라 농지의 40%가 일본인 소유로 넘어갔다'고 서술되어 있는데ツ….
사실이 아니다. 일제의 수탈을 비판하려는 의도는 좋지만, 우리 조상을 소유권 개념도 모르는 문맹자로 기술하는 것이야말로 누워서 제 얼굴에 침 뱉는 짓이다. 당시 우리 농민의 소유권 의식은 매우 높았다. 신고율이 99.5%였다. 교과서의 서술은 실증 근거가 없고, 역사에 대한 이해가 안 되어 있다.
일본인들이 취득한 토지는 얼마나 되나?
토지조사사업 결과 전국에서 4백80만 정보의 논밭이 집계되었는데, 국유지는 그 중 12만 정보(2.5%) 정도다. 그 국유지도 사업이 끝나고 1924년까지 연고 소작인, 즉 조선인에게 법정 가격으로 불하되었다. 당초 총독부는 일본인의 대량 이주를 계획했지만, 1910년대 일본의 대호황으로 일본에서도 노동력이 부족해 조선으로 이민하려는 자가 거의 없었고, 국유지를 일본인에게 불하하려는 계획도 흐지부지되었다. 대신 1940년까지 낙동강 하구나 전북 일대 평야에 진출한 일본인 대지주들이 있다. 이들이 차지한 논밭이 전국토의 10%쯤 되는데, 하구나 연안에 분포한 저습지를 헐값에 매집하거나 개간한 땅이다. 엄밀하게 수탈이라고 볼 수는 없다.
국사학자들은 사업 이후 다수의 토지 분쟁 소송이 있었다고 지적하고 있는데ツ….
일제는 땅이나 빼앗기 위해 온 것이 아니다. 한반도 전체를 일본 영토로 영구 병합하기 위한 백년대계를 가지고 일본과 동일한 근대적 소유 제도를 만들어내기 위해 토지조사사업을 벌인 것이다. 또 분쟁을 일으킨 사람 대부분은 농촌 지주나 실력가, 일찍 진출한 일본인 지주들이었다. 강화도 교동땅 분쟁자 명단에는 이완용의 이름도 있다.
일제의 수탈을 논할 때 흔히 거론하는 것이 토지와 함께 식량 수탈이다. ツ'일제는 공업화 추진에 따라 부족한 식량을 우리 나라에서 수탈했고, 쌀 생산량의 40% 이상이 일본으로 건너가는 바람에 우리 농촌 경제가 파탄에 빠졌다'는 게 교과서 내용이다.
수탈의 사전적 의미는 ツ'강제로 빼앗는 것'이다. 하지만 그런 종류의 식량 수탈은 없었다. 식량 수탈이라는 것 또한 일제의 통치 메커니즘 속에서 바라봐야 한다. 일제는 조선에 근대적 소유 제도를 만든 뒤 1920년대부터 일본과 조선의 시장을 통합했다. 요새 말로 하면 관세가 철폐된 완벽한 자유무역시장이 탄생한 셈이었다. 이렇게 되자 쌀 생산량의 절반 이상을 소작료 수입으로 장악한 한반도의 일본인과 조선인 지주들이 쌀값이 30% 정도 비싸면서 쌀 부족 현상을 겪던 일본으로 쌀을 ツ'수출'하기 시작했다.
수탈이 아니라 수출이었다는 말인가?
당시 말로는 ツ'이출'이라 했다. 그런 메커니즘을 수탈로 볼 것이냐 하는 것은 다른 문제다. 나는 경제학자니까 시장 거래로 나타난 현상을 수탈이라고 보기는 힘들다는 것이다. 그런데 국사 교과서는 그런 메커니즘을 전혀 서술하지 않고 ツ'수탈&middot;약탈'로만 가르치고 있다. 그러니 학생뿐 아니라 이 플로어(경제학부 교수실이 자리한 서울대 사회과학관 6층)에 있는 교수들도 대부분 일제가 강제로 쌀을 빼앗아갔다고 알고 있다. 사실을 왜곡하는 거다. 만약 그랬으면 사람들이 굶어 죽어야 하는데 식민지 기간에 인구가 두 배 가까이 늘었다. 수출 대금의 일부는 만주에서 대용 식품을 수입하는 데 쓰였고, 나머지는 자본으로 축적되었다. 그런 과정을 통해 식민지 자본주의가 발전했다.
<윤치호 일기>를 보면 일제의 경제 정책과 민족 차별 정책에 분개하는 대목이 곳곳에 나온다. 윤치호 같은 친일 지식인이 보기에도 일제의 차별이 심했다는 말인데ツ….
물론이다. 일제 시대는 기본적으로 폭압적이고 억압적인 식민지 체제였다. 내가 강조하는 것은 일제 시대도 근대적인 시장 메커니즘과 법치나 관료제가 작용하던 사회였다는 점이다. 정치적으로는 차별을 받았지만 경제적으로는 강력한 동화정책을 택했던 게 일본의 통치 방식이었다. 조선인 임금이 일본인의 절반에 불과했다는 것이 수탈이라고 할 수 있을까. 그것은 차별이지 수탈이 아니다.
총체적인 시각에서 제국주의 수탈 체제였다고 볼 수 있는 것 아닌가?
가령 인도의 면화 100만 파운드가 영국으로 갔는데 영국이 이 대금을 지불하지 않고 런던 은행에 저축으로 쌓아놓았다가 전쟁 중에 떼어먹었다면 수탈이다. 타이완과 일본의 경우도 그렇다. 식민지 시기 타이완은 사탕 공업이 발달해서 타이완 총독부 재정이 흑자였다. 타이완 총독부는 재정 잉여분을 본국에 송금했고, 그 돈은 일본의 재정 수입에 도움이 되었다. 이런 게 국제 경제학에서 말하는 수탈이다. 그런데 조선과 일본은 반대였다. 조선이 일본에 100원어치 쌀을 수출했다면, 각종 기계를 비롯한 일본의 자본은 200원어치 정도 조선에 투입되었다. 그렇게 한반도 내에서 일본의 소유권이 증대하면서 한반도의 경제 규모도 커졌다. 조선은 전형적인 식민지라기보다는, 일본이 한국을 영구 병합하기 위해 초기 투자를 하다가 패전하면서 중단되었다고 봐야 한다. 나는 이것을 역사 속에서 벌어진 신의 변덕이라고 부른다.
식민지를 너무 미화하는 것 아니냐는 시각도 있을 수 있는데ツ….
나는 식민지를 미화하지도, 근대화가 되어 좋아졌다고 이야기하지도 않는다. 문명 사회의 충돌과 접합 과정이 한반도에서 어떻게 일어났는지를 객관적으로 서술하고자 하는 것일 뿐이다.
자국의 식민지 경험을 어떻게 서술하고 교육해야 하는가는 수탈 여부와 별개로 국사 서술에서 중요한 부분이다. 국사는 어떻게 쓰고 교육해야 한다고 보는가?
굉장히 어려운 문제다. 나는 경제사가이기 때문에 경제학적으로만 말할 뿐이다. 그 문제는 경제사를 초월하는 종합적인 문제인데, 민족적인 집단 자존심의 상처가 크기 때문에, 더 세월이 지나야 할 것이다. 다만 식민지 역사를 민족 단위만이 아닌 문명사의 발전 과정으로 바라봐야만 한국인이 아픈 경험을 소화하고 살아 있는 교훈을 얻을 수 있다고 말하고 싶다.
얼마 전 방송에서 ツ'일본군 위안부는 강제동원되지 않았다'고 했다가 설화를 당했는데ツ….
위안부와 정신대는 서로 다른 것이다. 정신대는 1944년부터 1945년까지 있었던 여성 노동 동원 체제다. 일제는 1944년 ツ'여자정신근로령'을 발동하여 12~40세 미혼 여성을 산업 현장에 강제 동원했다. 반면 위안부는 그 전부터 일본군 주둔지에서 발생한 여성들의 성 착취 제도다. 대부분 민간업자에게 위탁 경영되었고, 일본군과 총독부가 알선과 도항증 발급 등으로 적극 협조했지만 위안부 모집은 위안소 경영주나 그 대리인에 의해 이루어졌다. 그런데 언제부턴가 우리 국민의 머리 속에 ツ'정신대=위안부'로 박혀 있다. 국사 교과서가 그렇게 교육했기 때문이다. 일제가 정신대라는 공적 권력을 행사해 여성을 동원해 위안부로 삼았다는 국민적 인식이 성립한 상태에서 내가 텔레비전에 나가 위안부와 정신대는 서로 다른데 상대방이 혼동하고 있다는 사실을 지적했던 것인데, 그만 국민적 분노가 일어났던 것이다.
현재 국내에서 논란이 되고 있는 과거 청산 움직임을 어떻게 보나?
독일에서 히틀러와 나치를 비난하고 있지만 독일인에게서 나치즘은 아직 진정으로 청산되지 않고 있다. 나치에 협력한 비시 정권을 프랑스인이 청산했다지만 결코 청산된 것이 아니다. 무리한 청산은 사회적 갈등을 가져온다. 청산의 주체는 역사가들이어야 한다.
경제학자이자 역사가로서 역사란 무엇이라고 보는가?
역사는 과거다. 망자에 대한 기억으로 살아 있는 자를 지배하는 사회는 중세 사회다. 근대 역사는 망자의 영으로부터 인간들이 해방된 사회다. 설명되고 해명되지 않는 모든 것은 신화다. 그게 근대인의 기본 사고방식이다. 그럼 무엇 때문에 역사를 공부하느냐? 과거 사람들의 분쟁과 협동을 보면서 인간의 문명이 발달하기 위해서는 어떤 조건이 조성되어야 하는가를 성찰하기 위해서다.
시사저널
 
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