Rape Of Nanking

[RockLee]

You know nothing about your history. What a pity! What a shame! Don't you think Japan an evildoer? If do, ask your government to apologize!!! Just be a man! It's a shame for your country live with the committed crimes in China and Korea.

hmm I'm neither japanese or chinese...can't u see the BELGIAN flag next to my country??? or maybe ur knowledge is limited to chinese and japanese history??

 

[sabro]

You know nothing about your history. What a pity! What a shame! Don't you think Japan an evildoer? If do, ask your government to apologize!!! Just be a man! It's a shame for your country live with the committed crimes in China and Korea.

Rocklee- Don't you live in Belgium?

How could you deny all of these primary sourses?

Everybody says 300,000 killed is mainstream,thus I am wrong.
So I have been asking where the number 300,000 comes from.

Then what are the sourses of these books.

Why they use pictures with wrong citations?
It is a proof of inaccuracy of Iris' book and many websites.


You or Honda means 30,000 Chinese civilans were slaughtered in one day?
If Japanese newspaper boasted of many enemies killed,it will be no problem,right?
If Japanese newspaper boasted of many civilians killed,it will be the proof of Japanese brutality.


Japan had not been member of the League of Nations,before WWII broke up.
Anyway,please tell me when and in what conference invading another country became illegal.

Until you give evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong, that's the number I'm going to believe. I'm not denying these primary sources. They are what they are.

The books I cite that agree with a much higher number--I haven't had time to even read these books much less check into their sources. In this case, unless I want to devote a major amount of time and write my own book I am probably going to have to trust Encycopedia Britanica, Simon and Schuster, and the mainstream academic community all who say that hundreds of thousands were slaughtered.

By the way, Japan was a member of the League of Nations and was a signatory to the charter on January 10, 1920. Japan withdrew from the league on March 27, 1933. Japan couldn't seem to understand Europe's hypocracy in dealing with colonialism-- The US, Britain, France and Germany could take territory and conquer nations, but Japan was condemned for similar actions. Furthermore they were still upset about being left outside at the Versailles conference, and about having to give back German colonial posessions it fought for and won.

I can understand the legal song and dance about invading other countries, but I do think that waging a war of agression should be criminal (Even if it mean G.W. Bush would be charged.) For the record, Colonialism, imperialism, mass murder and genocide are all wrong and should be prosecuted by some world court. The "Crimes Against Humanity" charge leveled at Germany and Japan after WWII weren't based upon some written charter, but were based on the belief that some actions were so vile and so clearly wrong that people should universally recognize a standard of right and wrong and follow a much more basic higher principle.

 

[urecco]

Until you give evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong, that's the number I'm going to believe. I'm not denying these primary sources. They are what they are.

These primary sources are evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong.

I can understand the legal song and dance about invading other countries, but I do think that waging a war of agression should be criminal (Even if it mean G.W. Bush would be charged.) For the record, Colonialism, imperialism, mass murder and genocide are all wrong and should be prosecuted by some world court. The "Crimes Against Humanity" charge leveled at Germany and Japan after WWII weren't based upon some written charter, but were based on the belief that some actions were so vile and so clearly wrong that people should universally recognize a standard of right and wrong and follow a much more basic higher principle.

Retrospective law is forbidden.People need to have the law before political leader start invading.

BTW,do you agree that Iris and many websites use photoes with inaccurate explaination?

 

[Dream Time]

it does not matter whether the 300,000 estimate is wrong,
it makes no difference,the Japanese were wrong,and they are still wrong because they are shamelessly denying the mistakes that they have made.

 

[sabro]

These primary sources are evidence that the 300,000 estimate is wrong.

Retrospective law is forbidden.People need to have the law before political leader start invading.

The primary sources you cite may suggest that the number is unreasonably high but only if that is your predisposition. How did a German diplomat come by these numbers? How was the Smythe survey done and what deaths does it include? How many deaths did Rabe see and was he just reporting murders in the "International Zone?" I would suggest that he is accurately reporting what he knew and saw. His lower estimate is understandable considering no one person witnessed the 300,000 murders. How many of the chinese were buried-- how many small villages in the surrounding countryside were wiped out entirely? How many were forced to dig their own graves and have disappeared from history? I'm certain that the academic sources and authors that I cited have a good reason to believe the higher estimate. I'm also certain that if you had irrefutable proof that the number was substantially inflated or that only one or two hundred feeble chinese men were killed and the rest just left the area to start a large coffee chain lots and lots of media attention and millions of dollars would be yours for the taking.

Retrospective law is forbidden? forbidden by whom? International law is funny. It doesn't follow rules like national constitutional laws do. The Nuremburg trials depended entirely upon ex post facto "retrospective" law. Are you suggesting that all those Nazi war criminals were innocent? that they should have gotten away with mass murder? Should the few Japanese war criminals have gotten away with it? Killing one person is murder, but killing millions is okay?

Even if I accepted your estimate, the Japanese military was guilty of killing thousands and thousands of innocent civillians. Beyond Nanjing, the Japanese killed millions. Was no one responsible? Is there no remorse? No guilt? Is this why there is no appology-- because no one did anything wrong? Several of the sources that I mentioned cite the accounts of Japanese soldiers-- Look at what they say happened, look at how they say the "war" was conducted. It leaves no doubt in my mind that a great attrocity of massive proportions was committed.

I still do not think that wars of agression are okay. Neither is genocide, mass murder or the institutionalized rape of civillians.

 

[urecco]

The primary sources you cite may suggest that the number is unreasonably high but only if that is your predisposition. How did a German diplomat come by these numbers? How was the Smythe survey done and what deaths does it include? How many deaths did Rabe see and was he just reporting murders in the "International Zone?" I would suggest that he is accurately reporting what he knew and saw. His lower estimate is understandable considering no one person witnessed the 300,000 murders. How many of the chinese were buried-- how many small villages in the surrounding countryside were wiped out entirely? How many were forced to dig their own graves and have disappeared from history? I'm certain that the academic sources and authors that I cited have a good reason to believe the higher estimate. I'm also certain that if you had irrefutable proof that the number was substantially inflated or that only one or two hundred feeble chinese men were killed and the rest just left the area to start a large coffee chain lots and lots of media attention and millions of dollars would be yours for the taking.

For you,does the record of buried 45,000 corpses mean only the number of corpses is incredibly high?
Robe's guessed number is obviously come from buried record.
Smythe asked thousands families and multified the number considering the total population in Nanking.
Buried record is the record.
About the villages,Chinese army had wiped out entirely before Japanese Army came in order to make it impossible to loot or buy foods from the villiages.
Of course,Japanese Army might have done some or most of it,but who knows?
How could Chinese histrians count the number of corpses which had disappeared from history?

What is the sources which you believe?

Retrospective law is forbidden? forbidden by whom? International law is funny. It doesn't follow rules like national constitutional laws do. The Nuremburg trials depended entirely upon ex post facto "retrospective" law. Are you suggesting that all those Nazi war criminals were innocent? that they should have gotten away with mass murder? Should the few Japanese war criminals have gotten away with it? Killing one person is murder, but killing millions is okay?

Retrospective law is forbidden in modern society.
As far as I know,hitler did not give the order to kill Jews officially,if they killed Jews secretly,it was illegal and murder.Thus they are not innocent.
Bringing Jews to the facilities would havebeen lawful at that time,so nobody deserves death penalty.Apparently,Americans brought Japanese Americans to similar facility.And probably nobody was prosecuted.
Was Stalin prosecuted?
Was Mao prosecuted?

Anyway,who was executed for invading besides Japanese and German.

Even if I accepted your estimate, the Japanese military was guilty of killing thousands and thousands of innocent civillians. Beyond Nanjing, the Japanese killed millions. Was no one responsible? Is there no remorse? No guilt? Is this why there is no appology-- because no one did anything wrong? Several of the sources that I mentioned cite the accounts of Japanese soldiers-- Look at what they say happened, look at how they say the "war" was conducted. It leaves no doubt in my mind that a great attrocity of massive proportions was committed.

If you believed my estimate,Japanese army never systematically and intentionally killed civilians.Admittedly,there were many victims of civilians.
At least in Nanking, most of them were misjudged as guerrila.That's why guerrila fight was forbidden.

I never deny personal crimes.But they happen everywhere.

You said,"why there is no appology?",yet there are several appologies for invading.Because invading was bad,even though it was not illegal.

BTW,do you agree that Iris and many websites use photoes with inaccurate explaination?
Do you agree that many websites and even historians are propagating the fake story that Japanese newspapers boasted the number of civilians killed?

 

[sabro]

For you,does the record of buried 45,000 corpses mean only the number of corpses is incredibly high?
Robe's guessed number is obviously come from buried record.
Smythe asked thousands families and multified the number considering the total population in Nanking.
Buried record is the record.
About the villages,Chinese army had wiped out entirely before Japanese Army came in order to make it impossible to loot or buy foods from the villiages.
Of course,Japanese Army might have done some or most of it,but who knows?
How could Chinese histrians count the number of corpses which had disappeared from history?

What is the sources which you believe?




Retrospective law is forbidden in modern society.
As far as I know,hitler did not give the order to kill Jews officially,if they killed Jews secretly,it was illegal and murder.Thus they are not innocent.
Bringing Jews to the facilities would havebeen lawful at that time,so nobody deserves death penalty.Apparently,Americans brought Japanese Americans to similar facility.And probably nobody was prosecuted.
Was Stalin prosecuted?
Was Mao prosecuted?

Anyway,who was executed for invading besides Japanese and German.

If you believed my estimate,Japanese army never systematically and intentionally killed civilians.Admittedly,there were many victims of civilians.
At least in Nanking, most of them were misjudged as guerrila.That's why guerrila fight was forbidden.

I never deny personal crimes.But they happen everywhere.

You said,"why there is no appology?",yet there are several appologies for invading.Because invading was bad,even though it was not illegal.

BTW,do you agree that Iris and many websites use photoes with inaccurate explaination?
Do you agree that many websites and even historians are propagating the fake story that Japanese newspapers boasted the number of civilians killed?

So many questions...

You can't honestly believe that the Imperial Japanese Army was some benevolent association out on a sunday outing. Wake up and smell the rotting corpses.

Again the sources which I believe are the widely accepted ones, those old textbooks, encyclopedias and the books I already cited. Yes, they are secondary sources, but they are trusted ones. As I have no access to primary sources-- and no ability to read Chinese or Japanese, It is unlikely that I will do any original research.

I think it is generally agreed that Hitler was directly responsibly for the Holocaust. We can start this thread-- the how guilty was Hitler, but let's not get silly-- the guy was evil. You honestly can't believe that the Nazi regime was not criminally responsible for their behavior. If you are right about retrospective law, then the whole Nuremburg trial was illegal.

America's concentration camps were criminal violations of constitutional rights. My mother and her family were in one of those relocation camps for Japanese Americans. She recieved an apology and reparations. But Manzanar was no Aushwitz. You can't compare the two.

Stalin and Mao should have been charged. But I guess the unwritten rule is that you have to lose the war to get charged.

As for the invasion being illegal-- Japan's war criminals including Tojo were charged with the illegal invasion of China and were executed. Japan signed the League Charter making it illegal.

That the Japanese Army didn't target civillians- were those comfort women civillians? Systematic and intentional are accurate description of Imperial military policy. More than two thirds of the deaths in china- some sources say 90% were civillians- If they weren't the targets, then the Japanese were untrained, undisciplined and incredibly poor shots. It sounds intentional and sytematic to me.

I can't answer about accuracy the photo descriptions and newspaper stories. I actually can't read Japanese. I wasn't there when the photos were taken. I don't think it changes the fact that Japan committed attrocities which include the Rape of Nanking in the 1937- 1945 time period. Look it up in a good Japanese college text book.

The only reason why I keep replying is that revisionists that want to bury the attrocities of our human past are perpetuating evil-- they are re-victimizing the Jews and Chinese victims of one of the greatest crime in history and making light of the criminals. I wish I was an expert in this area. Someone needs to step in and call this crap- crap. Urecco seems to need to white wash Japan's role in WWII. Why? Lots of Americans would like to forget the genocide of our indigenous peoples, slavery, attrocities committed in the Philipines and the internment of Japanese Americans...we need to teach these things to our children so that the victims are remembered, so that somehow they won't be repeated.

 

[RockLee]

Rocklee- Don't you live in Belgium?

Sabro...look at the post above yours..*rolls eyes*

hmm I'm neither japanese or chinese...can't u see the BELGIAN flag next to my country??? or maybe ur knowledge is limited to chinese and japanese history??

tsktsk...

 

[sabro]

RockLee-
Maybe Belgium needs to appologize for...hmmm, well think of something...sorry for being a nation that committed no mass attrocities in the last century...for resisting Nazi tyranny and for not cooperating (like so many conquered neighbors) with the holocaust. Sam wants an appology.

(I could swear that your post wasn't there when I wrote mine...but Urecco would dispute that fact and we'd all be back at the beginning again.)

Incidently for Urecco's information: The massacre at Malmedy in Dec. of 1944 of 86 American POW's (you're not supposed to kill POW's) was followed by an illegal "order" for US troops not to take SS prisoners. On new years day 1945, the 11th Armored Division rounded up and shot 60 prisoners at Chenogne. Several officers were disciplined, but no courts martial were held and the penalties were relatively light. (During the Battle of the Bulge, all the units and their commanders were needed.) The US order to not accept SS surrender was rescinded. The killing of surrendering SS units was for the most part ignored. (Wermacht units recieved good treatment.)

"All the pictures in my book have been in the public domain for some time, in books, newspapers, museums. And of course, I did not manipulate any of the pictures or captions. The revisionists who make such charges are unable to come up with any solid evidence to back up their serious - and often ludicrous - allegations. That is why most American historians put these revisionists in the same category as deniers of the Jewish Holocaust or Armenian Genocide. " - Iris Chang, October 1998 Ronza (Translation)

 

[Nothingness]

I heared that the author of the book just died...(but i'm not sure)

 

[sabro]

another source: Documents on the Rape of Nanking (Ann Arbor Paperbacks) by Timothy Brook (Editor) I haven't had time to read this one either.

The source of the number 300,000: in 1945 the International Military Tribunal for the Far East determined that the number massacred in and around Nanking for period December 1937 to February 1938 exceeded 260,000, and that the final number is probably much higher. They cite specific records, which are public and can found on the internet. A local war crimes trial set the number at 190,000 which attempted to exclude about 30 to 40 thousand Chinese soldiers. Ohata Hisao confessed that 150,000 bodies were disposed of by the Japanese. Unless you are a right wing revisionist (and a total loon) you kinda have to admit that the number is over 100,000.

Sadly, Iris Chang committed suicide about two weeks ago.

 

[RockLee]

Sabro, I seem to forget where I fit in all this??? look "wise" man....it's before my time...what happened in the past is not my responsibility or is it?? And I was telling that poor Sam guy he should stop spouting bad things about Japan,just for the sake of saying it.he's probably a 16 yo guy who hates Japanese ppl because his pops told him to. Like China didn't do bad stuff in the past...oh and like if America didn't do bad stuff in the past....hell every country did something bad in the past...if we all still should be upset about it the world would be in war with one and eachother...bad stuff happened, but we should be trying to make things better, not keep angry at eachother about the past

 

[urecco]

Again the sources which I believe are the widely accepted ones, those old textbooks, encyclopedias and the books I already cited. Yes, they are secondary sources, but they are trusted ones. As I have no access to primary sources-- and no ability to read Chinese or Japanese, It is unlikely that I will do any original research.

Do you mean I am wrong just because I'm a kind of revisionists?
In the past,it was widely believed that Nazis had made soap from Jews' body.
But now It's proven just a rumour.
Being widely believed does not mean correct.

I think it is generally agreed that Hitler was directly responsibly for the Holocaust. We can start this thread-- the how guilty was Hitler, but let's not get silly-- the guy was evil. You honestly can't believe that the Nazi regime was not criminally responsible for their behavior. If you are right about retrospective law, then the whole Nuremburg trial was illegal.

I don't know whether Nuremburg trial was totally illegal,because although retrospective law was forbidden in modern society,I guess there was not written international law about it.So I just say it was totally unfair and evil.
That trial was the worst one in 20th century.It was lynching called "trial".
AFAIK,the criminals sentenced in Nuremberg was treated as innocent people in German.

America's concentration camps were criminal violations of constitutional rights. My mother and her family were in one of those relocation camps for Japanese Americans. She recieved an apology and reparations. But Manzanar was no Aushwitz. You can't compare the two.

Then were anyone prosecuted?
If not,why?

Stalin and Mao should have been charged. But I guess the unwritten rule is that you have to lose the war to get charged.

Can it be called "law"?
The crime German and Japan did was to lose.

As for the invasion being illegal-- Japan's war criminals including Tojo were charged with the illegal invasion of China and were executed. Japan signed the League Charter making it illegal.

was it law?I think it's a rule inside of the League of Nations.
After leaving the committee,they did not need to obey the rule.
Does the law say htat the leader of invading nations will be executed?

That the Japanese Army didn't target civillians- were those comfort women civillians? Systematic and intentional are accurate description of Imperial military policy. More than two thirds of the deaths in china- some sources say 90% were civillians- If they weren't the targets, then the Japanese were untrained, undisciplined and incredibly poor shots. It sounds intentional and sytematic to me.

Is that "kill all,burn all,loot all"?
Even in Nanking,Japanese Army did not kill all.
The origin of this policy is Chinese words 三光作戦.Thus Chinese might call Japanese policy like that.Japanese never say like that.
三 means three in Japanse and Chinese both.
光 means light in Japanese,light and "to do something completely" in Chinese.
作戦 means the way of war or strategy.
the guy who said about this policy had been in some facility in China and educated by Chinese.

I can't answer about accuracy the photo descriptions and newspaper stories. I actually can't read Japanese. I wasn't there when the photos were taken. I don't think it changes the fact that Japan committed attrocities which include the Rape of Nanking in the 1937- 1945 time period. Look it up in a good Japanese college text book.

I said many websites and Iris used fake photoes.
Many Japanese have mentioned they are fake photoes.However,everyone never correct it just because there Japanese are revisionists like you do now.

another source: Documents on the Rape of Nanking (Ann Arbor Paperbacks) by Timothy Brook (Editor) I haven't had time to read this one either.

The source of the number 300,000: in 1945 the International Military Tribunal for the Far East determined that the number massacred in and around Nanking for period December 1937 to February 1938 exceeded 260,000, and that the final number is probably much higher. They cite specific records, which are public and can found on the internet. A local war crimes trial set the number at 190,000 which attempted to exclude about 30 to 40 thousand Chinese soldiers. Ohata Hisao confessed that 150,000 bodies were disposed of by the Japanese. Unless you are a right wing revisionist (and a total loon) you kinda have to admit that the number is over 100,000.

Could you give me the url of the website where I can see the specific records.

Iris says 窶廡or three days starting on December 15, 1937, Ohta窶冱 army unit dumped . . . a total of some 150,000 bodies [of Chinese victims into the Nanking River]窶 (according to Ohta窶冱 confession at a war criminal camp in 1954). However, he was assigned to Nanking on December 25, 1937.
HIs confession might be due to torture,or brainwash.In any case,this confession can't be proof and almost no histrians use it as evidence.

 

[urecco]

Incidently for Urecco's information: The massacre at Malmedy in Dec. of 1944 of 86 American POW's (you're not supposed to kill POW's) was followed by an illegal "order" for US troops not to take SS prisoners. On new years day 1945, the 11th Armored Division rounded up and shot 60 prisoners at Chenogne. Several officers were disciplined, but no courts martial were held and the penalties were relatively light. (During the Battle of the Bulge, all the units and their commanders were needed.) The US order to not accept SS surrender was rescinded. The killing of surrendering SS units was for the most part ignored. (Wermacht units recieved good treatment.)

Accoridng to Charles A Lindberg,American Army generally killed Japanese surredered soldiers and sometimes POWs.
He said Nazi's deed agaist Jews were similar to Amerian Army's mistreatmenat against Japanese POWs(or surredered soldiers).
Killing POWs or surredered soldiers is bad.However,it happened many places.

"All the pictures in my book have been in the public domain for some time, in books, newspapers, museums. And of course, I did not manipulate any of the pictures or captions. The revisionists who make such charges are unable to come up with any solid evidence to back up their serious - and often ludicrous - allegations. That is why most American historians put these revisionists in the same category as deniers of the Jewish Holocaust or Armenian Genocide. " - Iris Chang, October 1998 Ronza (Translation)

I don't critisize only Iris.Because Iris just repeated the thing Chinese gov't claimed.She was not a histrian.
The problem is that fake pictures or pictures with miscaptions have been in the public domain.And they have never been corrected even though Japanese historians have shown many solid evidence.
"contests of 100 killed" is the best example.

When historians use the pictures as evidence,it is necessary to mention when,where, and who took the picures.

 

[sabro]

Sabro, I seem to forget where I fit in all this??? look "wise" man....it's before my time...what happened in the past is not my responsibility or is it??

I absolutely agree. The fault is entirely mine. I was joking with you because Sam wanted you to appologize and you are from Belgium. I don't know much about Belgium's history, but it seems to be one of the few countries with no "bad stuff" in the recent past. (thus absolutely nothing to appologize for.) I sincerely appreciate your input and I appologize for my use of sarcasm-- which comes across quite poorly in electronic communication.

I think I have hit an impass with Urecco. The more "information" I get for him, the more I am convinced he is a right wing revisionist bent on denying any attrocities in Japan's past. (Rather than concentrate on the peaceful leadership Japan currently provides).

Urecco, I think you need to examine your motives for wanting to rewrite one of the darkest chapters in human history into some bad episode of Pokemon. It seems to me that you are grasping at whatever garbage you can latch onto that makes Japan look less guilty, and disgarding the mountain of evidence which the world, and every sixth grader in Louisiana accepts as truth. You wanted sources. I gave you sources. You want the website for the International Tribunal for the Far East, do what I did. It took three seconds- go to Google. Type it in. Press search. You will find 4573 sites that you can deny the validity of.

Japan's crimes weren't here and there. They weren't occasional. They weren't aberations. They were practiced, systematic, and institutional. This is how Japan conducted the war. and Germany and Japan did more than lose the war-- they started the war. You can dispute this, refute it with bad evidence and goofy logic, but you can't change this.

I can throw fact after fact, give source after source, and reason with all the logic I can muster. But I think it won't make one bit of difference. I think if Urecco was shown a film of the massacre which included confessions of military leaders, and long lists of statistics, and the exact location of each of the mass graves...It wouldn't be enough.

Someone needs to fight the good fight here and speak up for the uncountable dead. I'm actually hoping someone else will pick up this role for a bit (rocklee?) so that I can regroup. I'm feeling repetative and (gasp) boring. I think it important not to give credence, or silence to anyone who deny such a massive tragedy.

 

[urecco]

IUrecco, I think you need to examine your motives for wanting to rewrite one of the darkest chapters in human history into some bad episode of Pokemon. It seems to me that you are grasping at whatever garbage you can latch onto that makes Japan look less guilty, and disgarding the mountain of evidence which the world, and every sixth grader in Louisiana accepts as truth. You wanted sources. I gave you sources. You want the website for the International Tribunal for the Far East, do what I did. It took three seconds- go to Google. Type it in. Press search. You will find 4573 sites that you can deny the validity of.

I don't want the website for the Tokyo trial.I want the website with "specific records."Do you mean the decision of Tokyo trail? Alough you said over 260,000 killed had been determined in Tokyo trail,it was wrong.It'd be Iris' or your mistake.They said over 200,000 were killed.Anyway,I want to know why they decided over 200,000 were killed.What evidence wat it based on?
According to Tokyo trail,no foreigners saw civilians killed,except one civilian or ex-soldier who tried to run away was killed.
紅卍会,Red Swastika Society's report said they'd buried about 45,000 corpses.
崇善堂,Advance Benevolence Society said they'd buried about 110,000 corpses.However Advance Benevolence Society was not mentioned in any records written by foregners and Japanese.
And there were only 11 witnesses who saw massacre even though there were about 250,000 people in Nanking city.In addition,cross-examination was banned.
One website mentions about it.

Furthermore, The Testimony of the Survivors of the Nanking Massacre insisted on saying that mass murders took place and that more than 190,000 corpses were completely burnt. I was asserting 'murders without corpses'. Who could believe such incredible testimonies that 190,000 corpses left no traces?

The Alleged 'Nanking Massacre' Chapter II ÄRu"ì‹ž'å‹sŽEv'æ"ñÍ

As I said before, I am not a extremist.My opinion is very similar to the opinion on the website underneath in general.
If you(sabro) or anyone have time,please look through this website.
The Alleged 'Nanking Massacre' ÄRu"ì‹ž'å‹sŽEv

Japan's crimes weren't here and there. They weren't occasional. They weren't aberations. They were practiced, systematic, and institutional. This is how Japan conducted the war. and Germany and Japan did more than lose the war-- they started the war. You can dispute this, refute it with bad evidence and goofy logic, but you can't change this.

Is there any other systematic murder?

I can throw fact after fact, give source after source, and reason with all the logic I can muster. But I think it won't make one bit of difference. I think if Urecco was shown a film of the massacre which included confessions of military leaders, and long lists of statistics, and the exact location of each of the mass graves...It wouldn't be enough.

You've just said mainstream is alway correct.That's it.
Every revisionist says mainstream is wrong by showing evidence.
For example,in Nuremberg trail they concluded the number of Jews who had been intentionally killed in Aushwitz was 4 million.The evidence was only confession.However,after the trial,the guy who confessed stated that they killed not 4 million but about 1 million people.In addition,it was found in 80's that the guy had been severely tortured.If you believed the number of 4 million,would you say "Encyclopedia says 4 million,so you are wrong"?
You would not say like that.You should examine the fact of torture or search other evidence beside the confession.Right?
Similarly,if you believe 300,000 or even 200,000 killed,you should deny Smythe's survey and Robe's report with logic.

Have you given me any real evidence of 300,000 killed?

Anyway,you said:
Japanese newspaper boasted the number of civilians killed.
One of the sources is Ohta's confession.
Japanese policy was "kill all,burn all and loot all".

Fist one is simple mistranslation.
About second one,at that time he was not there.
Thiird one's policy is Chinese language.

Your knowledge completely biases agaist Japan.
Before you deny everything,you should read any website written by a revisionist.
Now you might assert that even the Tanaka memorial is true.

 

[sabro]

Urecco- we have reached an impass. We are just going around in the same circles which is repitious and boring. I appologize for the length of this post, and I will try not to offend those members I respect.

I don't want the website for the Tokyo trial.I want the website with "specific records."Do you mean the decision of Tokyo trail? Alough you said over 260,000 killed had been determined in Tokyo trail,it was wrong.It'd be Iris' or your mistake.They said over 200,000 were killed.Anyway,I want to know why they decided over 200,000 were killed.What evidence wat it based on?

So the Tokyo trail was wrong. All the textbooks are wrong. Iris Chang is wrong. The official account is wrong. Professional historians are wrong. I'm wrong, everyone else is wrong, but you know better.

As I said before, I am not a extremist.My opinion is very similar to the opinion on the website underneath in general.
If you(sabro) or anyone have time,please look through this website.
The Alleged 'Nanking Massacre' ÄRu"ì‹ž'å‹sŽEv

The book you site is generally regarded as right wing revisionist propaganda. If that's not extremist, what is?

You've just said mainstream is alway correct.That's it.
Every revisionist says mainstream is wrong by showing evidence.
For example,in Nuremberg trail they concluded the number of Jews who had been intentionally killed in Aushwitz was 4 million.The evidence was only confession.However,after the trial,the guy who confessed stated that they killed not 4 million but about 1 million people.In addition,it was found in 80's that the guy had been severely tortured.If you believed the number of 4 million,would you say "Encyclopedia says 4 million,so you are wrong"?
You would not say like that.You should examine the fact of torture or search other evidence beside the confession.Right?
Similarly,if you believe 300,000 or even 200,000 killed,you should deny Smythe's survey and Robe's report with logic.

I never said that mainstream is always correct. I said mainstream is usually correct. (I thought my horses/zebras metaphor was so clever...sigh) Check out "Lies My Teacher Told Me." It's a good book on where US history text books get the story wrong. What I said is the ball is in your court to prove the official account incorrect. You fumbled. The fact that now you are even excusing Nazi's for their crimes and trying to minimize the Holocaust is chilling. A holocaust denier and historical revisionist- this is not evidence of logical thinking and good reasoning. Flawed logic does not change facts.

Have you given me any real evidence of 300,000 killed?

Have you given me any real evidence that 300,000 weren't killed?

Your knowledge completely biases agaist Japan.
Before you deny everything,you should read any website written by a revisionist.
Now you might assert that even the Tanaka memorial is true.

I love Japan. Changing history to erase the eggregious behavior from 1937-1945 will not change how I feel. I love the United States. But I try to be honest and real about our history, and not white wash it.

I started to read your revisionist web site. In the United States we have hundreds of these written by white supremacists denying the holocaust. They make me sick. The agenda which drives their selection and interpretation of "fact" and their thin reasoning and flawed logic are so obvious that only those wishful thinking, weak minded, drones could possibly give them credence. Yet still, revisionism of this sort is evil and dangerous. It didn't persuade me, it made me angry.

I grow weary of this. You may succeed yet at wearing me down.

Luc, Sam, Bossel, RockLee...can you help me out here. I don't think revisionist drivel should ever be unanswered.

 

[urecco]

So the Tokyo trail was wrong. All the textbooks are wrong. Iris Chang is wrong. The official account is wrong. Professional historians are wrong. I'm wrong, everyone else is wrong, but you know better.

The tokyo trail was wrong.It should not be called "trail",
Then Chinese gov't's official account is wrong,because this number is exaggrated from the number in the Tokyo trail.
So many textbook are wrong,because they refer the Chinese officiall number.
Iris Chang is wrong,because she just repeated the Chinese offiiciall number.
Chinese professional historians are wrong,because they do not have Freedom of speech and repeat the Chinese official number.
Japanse historians must be studying better than ones in any other countries,because there are lots of argument about Nanking and we have freedom of speech.Even "left wing" historians never say 300,000 were killed.
It is quite normal the Japanese know better.

If you search "Nanking massacre",massive websites will be hit.
But if you searched "Advance Benevolence Society",only 4 websites would be hit.2 of them are Japanese websites.Why? Because they never check the evidence.
When I search "崇善堂",Advance Benevolence Society in Japanese,4400 websites are hit.

The book you site is generally regarded as right wing revisionist propaganda. If that's not extremist, what is?

You say what you don't want to accept is "right wing revisionist propaganda."

I never said that mainstream is always correct. I said mainstream is usually correct. (I thought my horses/zebras metaphor was so clever...sigh) Check out "Lies My Teacher Told Me." It's a good book on where US history text books get the story wrong. What I said is the ball is in your court to prove the official account incorrect. You fumbled. The fact that now you are even excusing Nazi's for their crimes and trying to minimize the Holocaust is chilling. A holocaust denier and historical revisionist- this is not evidence of logical thinking and good reasoning. Flawed logic does not change facts.

I am not facusing nazis' Holocaust,but your way of denial.
Is the confession due to torture reliable?
You just say revisionist is always wrong.
Anyway,AFAIK,the Polish national Holocaust musium changed thier statement in 1990.
And now it says about 1.1 million people died.
Am I minimizing the Holocaust?

Nuremberg Trial was wrong,many text books were wrong,encyclopedias were wrong and some or many historians were wrong.
Are revisionists alway wrong?
What is 'Holocaust Denial'?

Have you given me any real evidence that 300,000 weren't killed?

Of cause I have.
According to Robe and Japanese records,the poplutaion of nanking was about 250,000.
Smythe survey says,there were 2400 killed and 6400 kidnapped.

Have you given me any real evidence that 300,000 were killed?Yes or No?

 

[PaulTB]

Luc, Sam, Bossel, RockLee...can you help me out here. I don't think revisionist drivel should ever be unanswered.

I think not answering revisionist drivel is a reasonable course when
a) Answering it is almost certainly just going to result in another revisionist drivel post.
and
b) Practically everyone has long since given up reading the thread.

 

[mad pierrot]

b) Practically everyone has long since given up reading the thread.

 

[PaulTB]

Oh well, apparently you hadn't.

Well just for you

This site Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos would appear to be as sensible as most, even though it's a geocities, and it specifically addresses several reasons why the numbers reached differ between reputable historians. Not to mention why the numbers aren't necessarily the most important point.

To sum up the article:
The number killed in the Nanking Atrocity depends on what area you consider and what time period.

 

[sabro]

Thank you, thank you, domo arigato gozaimasu.

The information in that article is golden. It links to a couple of other good articles.

I need to examine why I keep responding. (Like some kind of internet OCD).

 

[urecco]

Thank you.that's a really nice article.
I know the death toll depends on the definition.
but I completely agree Hata's comment.
What do you think about this article?

"The neighboring six counties shouldn't be included in the discussion of the Nanking Atrocities," maintains Hata Ikuhiko, a professor at Nihon University. Hata thinks the "definition" must be in accordance with the one announced in the IMTFE judgment, which states, "This orgy of crime started with the capture of the City on the 13th December 1937 and did not cease until early in February 1938."

All Japanese histroians disagree the death toll which the verdict of the IMTFE concluded.So first of all, people should reexamine this number.
Even Japanese "Great massacre" School never say over 200,000 people were killed in Nanking city and neaby.
They can be called ''revisionists".

According to Yang Daqing, a professor of history at George Washington University,the Japanese revisionists have researched better than the Chinese.
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos

This is a very sensitive and emotional issue for Chinese. Especially the number issue [the number of victims (see In the 1990s)] is very sensitive in China. And secondly, Chinese scholars are not fully up-to-date on Japanese research or Japanese sources. In a sense they are handicapped to appreciate the kind of research done in Japan.

Sabro,about 100 killed.Although I said the the newspaper boasted the number of civilians killed was mistranslation,you said you do not know the truth because you can't read Japanese.This website says it was the contest
to kill soldiers.

Q: In Japan, some people question the credibility of historical materials such as Timperley's book (see Psychological Warfare) and the news stories about Hyakunin Giri [the contest to kill 100 Chinese soldiers with sword] (see Postwar Judgment). What do you think about their claims?

The books or something you cited contain at least one totally silly mistake.

Do you still think 300,000 people were killed in Nanking city and nearby?
The mainsteam say 300,000 victims do not contain the victims died in Shanghai or anywhere,even though Nanking Massacre includes massacres which happened in six surround contries.

In China the figure of 300,000, the death toll reckoned at the Nanking War Crimes Tribunal, is the official estimate engraved on the stone wall at the entrance of the Qin-Hua Rijun Nanjing Datsusha Yunan Tongbao Jinianguan, or the Memorial Hall for Compatriot Victims of the Japanese Military's Nanjing Massacre

Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos

 

[sabro]

I shouldn't respond. (James T. Kirk voice:Must...turn...logic...circuit off...will...only cause ...pain)
But here I go again:

Thank you.that's a really nice article.
I know the death toll depends on the definition.
but I completely agree Hata's comment.
What do you think about this article?

im passe ﾃ穫.
1. A road or passage having no exit; a cul-de-sac.
2. A situation that is so difficult that no progress can be made; a deadlock or a stalemate: reached an impasse in the negotiations.

The toll depends on the definition. The toll depends on the definition. The toll depends... at least we agree on something.

So hundreds of thousands of Chinese civillians were killed. (Undisputed) Many of them from December 1937 to February 1938 in and around the Nanjing area (also undisputed). But since the number may or may not add up to 300,000 depending on how big a circle you draw on the map or the exact dates you use... It's not that bad. I think China should appologize to Japan (for bleeding if nothing else) and give the formerly conquered territories back. (This is sarcasm)

Sabro,about 100 killed.Although I said the the newspaper boasted the number of civilians killed was mistranslation,you said you do not know the truth because you can't read Japanese.This website says it was the contest to kill soldiers.

Oh goody. I can rest easy knowing that it was only soldiers that were murdered in cold blood. I'm certain the women that were raped were soldiers. The guys being used for bayonet practice...probably soldiers too. those famous pictures of dead children, a burned infant, a crying baby at the train station...all little soldiers. Dead yes. Innocent no. Japan did the world a favor by engaging in an unprecented orgy of murder, looting, and violence.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Again is the source reliable?

Do you still think 300,000 people were killed in Nanking city and nearby?
The mainsteam say 300,000 victims do not contain the victims died in Shanghai or anywhere,even though Nanking Massacre includes massacres which happened in six surround contries.

Yes. The number is an estimate. Again, it may be higher. It may be lower. I believe an attrocity of massive proportions happened in Nanking and nearby in the three month period previously mentioned. I also believe that it is all but forgotten and the victims deserved to be remembered. I now believe that there is a right wing revisionist movement underway to deny, hide, and minimize Japanese war crimes during WWII including this massacre-- and for the sake of humanity, peace, and the future of Japan, that this movement needs to be stopped.

 

[jspecdan]

right now, history professors around the country are trying to 'rewrite current textbooks to portray accurate facts.' The thing is, if the Nanking thing didn't happen as they say it didn't, then what did happen? I was asked, rather told to write a letter asking for the encouragement of the rewritten textbook(s) but can't because I don't know what the hell they're going to write in its place. Being a nikkei, I just think that whatever the truth is, should be written. I can't give a **** if the Nanking this was true or not, just write what really happened. Supposedly the Japanese government has apologized...whatever. keep on truckin'