Rape Of Nanking

[sabro]

The problem with textbooks is that they are as much a product of the current political climate of a country as they are a product of historians. Especially high school textbooks which tend to be often poorly written, sometime wrong and usually slanted. If there is a current in Japan which wants to say that nothing bad happened, we did nothing wrong... write a happy story.

I'm concerned.

Sabro

 

[urecco]

Oh goody. I can rest easy knowing that it was only soldiers that were murdered in cold blood. I'm certain the women that were raped were soldiers. The guys being used for bayonet practice...probably soldiers too. those famous pictures of dead children, a burned infant, a crying baby at the train station...all little soldiers. Dead yes. Innocent no. Japan did the world a favor by engaging in an unprecented orgy of murder, looting, and violence.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Again is the source reliable?

What are you on about?

My questions were:
1.As Hata said,should we use the definition which was defined in the IMTFE?
If not,why not?
2.You said Japanese newspaper boasted the number of civilians killed a.k.a decapitation contest.
I said that it is mistranslation and It boasted the number of soldiers killed by two men who fought with swards.
You said you dont know whether what I said is true because you can't read Japanese.
Then I show the sourse written in English.

Hyakunin Giri [the contest to kill 100 Chinese soldiers with sword]

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Do you understand that your source is wrong?

I never said victims of rape or dead children were soldiers.
Why did you reply like that?
I can't understand your logic.

about the baby crying the station.It is the famouse propaganda.
Of cause,Japanese Army bombed the station.It is true.
But the scene of crying baby was created to make people hate Japan and sympathise with China.

First picture is the scene of crying baby.
Second one shows that the baby had not been alone before that pic. was took.
The rest pics shows that the baby had been moved to take sypathetic pic.

I never deny that there were many people suffered from the bomberd.
And there would have been another baby crying alone.
However,it is totally unfair to use this pic to emphasize Japanese Army's brutality.

I know you hate to reply.
but please answer my 2 questions.

 

[TwistedMac]

jeebus.. it's war.. sh*t happens in wars...

It's a game where the country that kills the most of the other countrys humans wins.
it's farked to begin with! What does one crying baby matter one way or the other?

Are people seriously so blind as to be affected by something so petty?

I bet a thousand kids from all sides of the combatants have been burned alive, trapped under heavy objects fallen in bomb raids, gased to death, beaten to death, raped, and generally abused in wars all over the world, and people hold up a picture of one crying baby as the picture of brutality just because it's on film?

I guess it's true when they say "Out of sight, out of mind". But it's scary as hell when people seem to think a lone child is the worst thing that happens in a war.

 

[urecco]

I know what you mean.
And I understand "out of sight,out of mind"
I know whether this baby were brought or not does not change what Japanese Army had done.

But,in my pinion,directed pics should not be used as histrical evidence.

 

[sabro]

The point is that the brutality practiced by the Imperial Japanese Army was systematic. The attack on China was a war of agression. That baby is a symbol- an innocent victim of this agression. Non combatants were the main target-- and no one believes that it was a lack of discipline on the Japanese part- it was an organized attrocity, not an accident, not a normal part of war. All this is well documented and is part of history. I brought up the baby because Urecco seemed to be saying that only soldiers were killed and that somehow that was okay. This baby is obviously not a soldier. I'm glad someone picked him (or her) up.

If we ever want to avoid war, we have to remember how terrible and dehumanizing it is.

As for Urecco's Q's: (remember that Impasse thing- I kinda regard your opinions in the same way I would a neo-Nazi holocaust denyer. Sorry, but that's the unfortunate truth...I don't really pay it much thought.)

The ITMFE's numbers seem good enough for me. They are widely accepted by most historians and by the mainstream media. And like you said earlier, the estimates depend on the definition of the area and time period.

I really doubt that the beheading contest was anything more than it has been depicted in the mainstream account. I still don't read Japanese unfortunately.

I replied that way because I want to shock you into reality. Take a deep breath and ask yourself if any of your sources make sense in the grand scheme of things. What kind of bizarre conspiracy would want to make up such stories? How would they accomplish such a complete a job? I'm sorry that you don't want to believe the truth, but unfortunately it is not that pretty. I listed dozens of sources that disagree with the minority opinion you represent. Feel free to read them and research those sources. They all look pretty good to me.

 

[urecco]

The ITMFE's numbers seem good enough for me. They are widely accepted by most historians and by the mainstream media. And like you said earlier, the estimates depend on the definition of the area and time period.

my question is
As Hata said,should we use the definition which was defined in the IMTFE?

should? or shouldn't?
If not,why?
please answer the question...
I know the estimates depend on the definition of the area and time period
Thus I recommend to use original definition and fix the date and area.

I really doubt that the beheading contest was anything more than it has been depicted in the mainstream account. I still don't read Japanese unfortunately.

maybe the mainstream you said is not really the mainstream.

Although I show the "golden" website,I am showing others.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/weekly/news/nn2003/nn20030510a3.htm

According to the complaint, the Mainichi falsely reported in 1937 that the two second lieutenants carried out hyakunin giri, a contest to see who would be the first to slash 100 Chinese soldiers with their swords while on their way to Nanjing

Even the website which say 100 killed was true say visctims were POWs.
I searched "civilians" but did not hit. from bossel's post.
http://japanfocus.org/141.html

In reaction to such attacks, Honda dug up and thoroughly refuted their claims with testimonials that: showed the "hundred head" contest to have been an atrocity committed against prisoners of war (not battle killings) ("Shishime testimony")

This article below should be the beginning of misunderstanding about it.
This article says neither it had happend during the battle nor they killed enemy.Many people would think they killed innocent people.
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMHT.html

He explained that this was the result of cutting a Chinese in half, helmet and all.

However,it says they killed someone with helmet by cutting everything including helmet.
During the murder race of POWs or civilians,would you cut the helmet?
Why they cut the helmet? The answer is they killed the soldiers during the battle.
In modern battle,is it possible to kill hundred enemy by sword?
impossible.
Thus everybody says it is fiction.

No matter whether it is fiction or not,
the newspaper boasted killing enemies.
Do you understand?

 

[bossel]

Thus everybody says it is fiction.

What a strong case of delusion you are.

 

[sabro]

What a strong case of delusion you are.

I've got no response but laughter. Urecco, are you putting us on?

Urecco- I just read the site you cited (http://japanfocus.org/141.html)
Quote:
"The denial thesis became increasingly bankrupt in the late 1980s. First, it came to light that Tanaka Masaaki had altered the text in as many as 300 places when he published the field diary of General Matsui Iwane, [the officer in charge of Japanese troops in Nanjing]. [5] Second, the editors of Kaiko, the publication of Kaikosha, the fraternal organization of former Imperial Army cadets, recognized in print that "the Japanese army committed illegal murders in Nanjing." And third, a decision in the Ienaga Saburo textbook suit recognized the existence of the "Nanjing Massacre."

In this way the theories denying the Nanjing Massacre were totally discredited, but they were prominently touted again in the late 1990s. That is, by repeatedly emphasizing the denial theories, proponents hoped to persuade people that no massacre had occurred, or if it had, it wasn't so bad. Treating surviving witness Li Xiuying as a fake and filing the current "hundred heads" libel suit can be seen as part of this effort. These developments are deeply connected to the intensification of reactionary attacks since the beginning of the 1990s."

So the point is that the stories were in the newspapers and they are true. That there is a discredited reactionary movement in Japan trying to deny the Nanjing massacre. Thanks for the source. I couldn't have found a better one.

The other site (http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMHT.html) is a translation of one of the articles mentioned previously. Remember that this is what Japanese censors wanted the Japanese public to know.

Again, domo arigato Urecco.

More from that site:
Estimated date: winter, 1938, after the worst of the massacres.

"Groups of three to ten maurading soldiers would begin by traveling through the city and robbing whatever there was to steal. They would continue by raping the women and girls and killing everything and everyone that offered any resistance, attempted to run away from them, or simply happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. During their misdeeds, no difference was made between adults and children. There were girls under the age of eight and women over the age of 70 who were raped and then, in the most brutal way possible, knocked down and beat up. We found corpses of women on beer glasses and others who had been lanced by bamboo shoots. I saw the victims with my own eyes--I talked to some of them right before their deaths and had their bodies brought to the morgue at Kulo Hospital so that I could be personally convinced that all of these reports [he had written] had touched on the truth. "

 

[urecco]

What a strong case of delusion you are.

I might've misused the word again.
What I meant is that everyone says the article is not true.

As you know now,the article boasted the number of enemies killed by two men with swords.
And it was really unlikely to happen.
Actually,in Nanking court,the writer of the article said he did not know whether it had happened or not and he said this article is based on what he'd heard from the two soldiers who were supposed to have killed soldiers.
In addition,the writer said the victims were neither POWs nor civilians.
As you know,even English translated ver. never said it was decaptiation contest.

People who argue the two soldiers killed POWs hide the fact that the newspaper said they killed enemies during the battles.
But if they killed POWs,the article won't be true.

And revisonists say it was fiction.

So nobody who know what's really written in the article says the article is true.
Do you understand?

Sabro,
Please answer my questions.

 

[sabro]

So nobody who know what's really written in the article says the article is true.
Do you understand?

Sabro,
Please answer my questions.

I've lost the point of this. What questions are you talking about?

I think you miss the point about the beheading contest articles. The army and its censors wanted the Japanese public to know that they were killing lots of Chinese. This killing was fun. It was an attrocity and they did not try to hide it. This goes to the point that not only did the Japanese commit attrocities but that they did not go to great lengths to hide this fact. This is what I understand.

 

[urecco]

please answer my question.

DID THE NEWSPAPER BOASTED THE NUMBER OF CIVILIANS KILLED?

YES OR NO?

 

[sabro]

the Newspapers boasted about the number of Chinese killed.

Apparently there are other instances in other articles of Japanese newspapers reporting large numbers of Chinese killed. I don't have specific examples, but I'm certain they are not hard to find. (You can look them up since you actually read Japanese.) I'm certain that references to articles such as this are reliable, because it would have been logical for Japan to report in their victories the number of enemies that were slain. It is also logical that a good number of these enemies would be civillian. But again, the specifics- i do not have. I can check my sources when I have time if you would like.

This is akin to American papers estimating the toll of the Tokyo firebombings. Most Americans at that time would have celebrated the large numbers of civillian deaths.

 

[Martialartsnovice]

The problem with textbooks is that they are as much a product of the current political climate of a country as they are a product of historians. Especially high school textbooks which tend to be often poorly written, sometime wrong and usually slanted. If there is a current in Japan which wants to say that nothing bad happened, we did nothing wrong... write a happy story.

I'm concerned.

Sabro

I agree, I read the histroy book, my cousins study from in their classes, it makes no mention of the Rape of Nanking. It doesnt even cover the Japanese occupation of China, that well. When I confronted them about it, they told me that it never happened, and that it was a bunch of over-uinflated media hype.

I know soldiers who were sent to China after the end of WWII, they went on voluntary campaigns to rescue the POWs from the camps. They were the ones, who told me about it. I tqake an AP history course at my highschool, and the books have a paragraph about it, and the surrounding times. It scares me to, Sabro. It seems that people are concealing the facts from the younger generations, for what to give them a illusion of war is quick, and decisive. I know its not because, my great-grandfather and most of my great-uncles fought in Europe during WWII. My one uncle fought in the battle of the bulge. My dad's two older brothers were both in the military in Vietnam, One was a mechanic on the navy gunboat, less than a mile of shore. The other was a marine in the reserves, in California. I have heard them talk about the times, and experiences they had in the military.

I know people who still think that Vietnam was a ruse to invade Cuba, at Guantanamo Bay. I makes me mad that my Middle school history teacher told us that Nanking, Cuba, and Dersert Strim were just a skirmish to flex the military muscle.

 

[sabro]

You nailed it.
Check out a book by a guy named Dr. James Loewen called "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbooks Got Wrong"

website: www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/liesmyteachertoldme/liesmyteacher.html

I use a few examples from it when I teach history (right now I'm just doing RSP). It gets kids thinking.

Urecco just gets me angry-- the kind of illogical revisionist crap he keeps pushing wouldn't even float if we taught the kind of critical analysis that Loewen proposes.

 

[sabro]

Sigh...

"At one time, after Nanking was captured, more than 30,000 Chinese were driven to the foot of the city wall. Machine guns then swept the crowd and grenades were thrown from atop the wall. The 30,000 people were all killed, most of them were women, children, and elderly." reported Tokyo Asahi Shimbun correspondent Yoshio Moriyama on December 14, 1937.

"Those in the second row were forced to dump the severed bodies into the river before they themselves were beheaded," The Japanese military correspondent, Yukio Omata, wrote, "The killing went on non-stop from morning until night ........".

Examples of Contemporary Japanese Newspapers that boasted of killing civillians. You can look them up. Probably online. I can't. I don't read Japanese.

It reminds me of a cheerful newsreel that I found online that showed an american pilot strafing Japanese sailors in the water after their ship had sunk.

 

[Martialartsnovice]

What the genro of tthe Hirohito's reign did in the Chinese Occupation,is horrifcally savage, but the Emperor, is to blame as well as thje genro.I hold both these parties responsible for the incident.

I read a book, called "Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan." By Herbert Bix. It tells of hitos life, it has a entire section of the book, decicated to his military policies. It includes refernece to Nanking, but it says he didnt stop them. I personally find this to be a lapse in sound and moral judgement.

 

[sabro]

I agree. (Sensitive topic: Is Hirohito culpable for the Rape of Nanjing?)

 

[Muay Thai Boran]

The Rape of Nan-Jing

Dear educated forum members,

We would like to give honest inputs from our previous family generations escaping from Nan-Jing before we are too old and die first.

We had been reading many of the web's thread and attending some meeting forus as a spectator, because our family lineage is so much affected by the way japanese people did to us innocent Chinese citizen, and we have to escape for our life to other Southeast Asian countries to hide. We are a bunch of very old citizens now living in Bangkok, but the pain we saw to our parents, friends, family, relatives is so unimaginable and impacted our life everyday even till we are old at 70's today. We started to learn English so that someday someone will stand up for the truth of how Japanese imperialism, soldiers, and people had did to Chinese people. We read Iris Chang's book and we have some very old pictures that we keep from our parents wanting to give it to her on showing more of what Japanese had did in invading, torturing us without valid reason, and now denying at all cause without guilt, feeling, and shamefulness. But it was so sad that she passed away unknowingly. We prayed everyday that Karma exist and give repentences to the Japanese's future with endless sorrow, pain, and torturing as they just initially received in Hiroshima, Nagasagi, and new Japanese generations that wants to be Westernesr, want to be used by foreigners and enjoyed freely by Westerners in both physical and mental abuse/neglects manner and almost no wishes to remain japanese.

Japanese in Nan-Jing totally gang raped every single women, ladies, girls they they can came across. They raped using everything around them, they laughed at our parents generations with other parents standing there forcing to do animal acts on the raped victims. They asked us to rape our own family, and they just laughed at us, ask the whole village to see of parent's generation raped each other in all different annals/orifices possible on the human body; and forced everyone to enjoy, make joke, make fun, make an orchestrated event out of it. So many had decided to commit suicide, and they still bring their corpses to rape again and again, and still ask other Chinese to continue raping their own family members. They will put their acclaimed wicked katana into Chinese women vagina in-and-out in a sexual manner, and force Chinese men to do the same to their own family, daughters, and sons (ie, annals). When they had a chance to see pregnant Chinese women, they will even rape them more in gang of several dozens at the same time and try to pull the child out of her body and ask Chinese men to kill and continue their rape while they make bets. Endless chemical experiments on Chinese people, mixing animals with human through making Chinese people having sex with different animals for study, and many more that our family generations wanted to tell to somebody, especially someone like Iris Chang, who had the courage to face the truth and confront the japanese that remained wicked with straight face denial till today.

>added paragraph>It really does not matter on what had happened by whom, but that did it need to apologize and admit their fault for the sake of the dead, the tortured, the raped, and etc. Without that, no Asian country will ever started to learn how to forgive japanese people.

Best regards.

 

[jerry4]

let bygones be bygones....

 

[Martialartsnovice]

Well its in the past, and it happened before my time and to no one I know. But still what was commited during that time was a crime against humanity. I just hate when my peers are ignorant of what actually happened in the course of history. They think that the US as a whole has been involved in Both World wars, which is true, but they still think that Nam was a hoax, Korea to them never happened, and tht Desert Storm, was in a way a live fire version of boot camp. They are so blinded by their ignorance that it scares me.

 

[Martialartsnovice]

Well, I wonder if there gonna cover up 9/11 an dthe current Iraqi war, the US is fighting.

 

[sabro]

I've already heard that 9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy to make muslims look bad and to push the US into the war in Iraq. I don't think these rumors will find many believers.

If you really want to look into US histories darker closets- what Native Americans went through is better known, but check out what we did in the Phillipines after the Spanish American War, what we did in latin america in the 20th century, and some of the CIA's dirty little games during the cold war. With very little work you can discover attrocities the US committed. Pinochet is supposed to go on trial in Chile soon. I wonder how the CIA will stay out of this one.

I also hear that President Buchannan was gay.

 

[Martialartsnovice]

@sabro:

No Offence, but who ever came up, with that Idea, ws ssmokin, or was gittin stoned at the time. I mean come on, did they see the Bin-laden footage, especially the one, where he says he did it. I wish we would find him, and lock up. Hey, what ever happened to Sadam, I know hte US got him, but was he executed, or did he died in prison. I know someone told me that Yassir Arafat, died. I saw it on the news. I heard someone say that Arafat, coordinated the 9/11 attacks.

 

[sabro]

Saddam is sitting in a cell awaiting trial by an Iraqi court.

A lot of 9/11 rumors are just retreads of Kennedy assasination rumors. The one about the president knowing of an impending attack but hiding it so his country can go to war dates back to pearl harbor.

As far as I know, Arafat and Sadam had nothing to do with 9/11.

Like the Nan-jing rumor thing, most of the revisionist fairy tale makes no sense if you think about it. I think these people say these things to convince themselves of it.

 

[urecco]

Sorry not replying long time.

So,do you agree that you misunderstood about the article of 100 killed.
The newspaper said they'd killed hostile soldiers not cilvilians.

About Yoshio Moriyama,he did not report that kind of things during the war.
He said that kind of things after the war.
Where did you get this info.?

About Yukio Omata,I have a question.
When did he reported?