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Rape Of Nanking

McTojo

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Lexico please read the fine print !

Tokis-Phoenix said:
I think no one here can deny that the nanking masacre happened and it was a mass scale brutal, barbaric and unimaginably cruel act, crueler than cruel, it was evil to its core. During that time, the japanese not only became animals in their ways, but worse than animals.

The Japanese not only became animals ... Are you becoming over emotional Lexicon or do you need me to help you find things.
 

lexico

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Read my lips

Wrong again, McTojo; you are being anachronistic by confusing Modern Japan of today and Imperial Japan who committed the brutalities. Tokis-Phoenix was capable of identifying the subhuman, animal behaviour in the Massacring troops on dispatch from IJ; but do you not ?

Please answer this, and all the other 6 fine points I raised, McTojo, 7 in all.
 

McTojo

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lexico said:
Wrong again, McTojo; you are being anachronistic by confusing Modern Japan of today and Imperial Japan who committed the brutalities. Tokis-Phoenix was capable of identifying the subhuman, animal behaviour in the Massacring troops on dispatch from IJ; but do you not ?

Please answer this, and all the other 6 fine points I raised, McTojo, 7 in all.

I helped you find the term animal which was used to describe the Japanese, something you said you couldn't find...and you say I'm wrong again ? haha...
 

McTojo

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There you go

[
lexico said:
In fact you are the first member on this forum, as far as I can serach under key 'animal,' to call any nation 'animal.' In fact you have just insulted the Chinese as well as the Japanese by your name calling. Please explain yourself, for I do not believe your language behaviour is acceptable on this forum, McTojo.
So, I wasn't the first person to use the term animal
 

Maciamo

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McTojo said:
nd the Japanese don't need China's forgiveness because China had been just as hypocrical and animalistic as Japan in her past against the poor monks and nuns in Tibet.

I am not sure if you realise the difference of scale here. The population of Tibet is 500x smaller than Han China. Today's population is 2.5 million against 1.2 billion Han Chinese, and the proportion was the same 60 years ago, before China invaded Tibet. So, even had the Chinese anihilated completely the 1.2 million Tibetan in 1950 (which they didn't do), that would have been about 1/10th of the number of Chinese killed by the Japanese. The number of Tibetan killed by the Chinese is probably smaller than the number of Chinese killed only in Nanjing.
 

McTojo

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Okay....and ?

Maciamo said:
I am not sure if you realise the difference of scale here. The population of Tibet is 500x smaller than Han China. Today's population is 2.5 million against 1.2 billion Han Chinese, and the proportion was the same 60 years ago, before China invaded Tibet. So, even had the Chinese anihilated completely the 1.2 million Tibetan in 1950 (which they didn't do), that would have been about 1/10th of the number of Chinese killed by the Japanese. The number of Tibetan killed by the Chinese is probably smaller than the number of Chinese killed only in Nanjing.

Murder is murder Maciamo and no matter how statistically you crunch the numbers it does not justify China's past aggressions.
 

lexico

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McTojo said:
[ So, I wasn't the first person to use the term animal
Technically you were. Tokis-Phoenix used 'animals' in the plural for Imperial Japanese Army in Nanjing of 1937. You are using it in the singular adjectival form of 'animalistic' for Modern Japanese of the now. Two differences that make for a huge difference which you fail to see. Please proceed with your 7 answers ?
 

lexico

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Irrelevant

McTojo said:
Murder is murder Maciamo and no matter how statistically you crunch the numbers it does not justify China's past aggressions.
If you've read my post regarding the Tibetans, you know where to go to post your point.
lexico said:
Please direct all non-Nanjing Massacre topics to Chinese atrocities as you are straying from topic again. I have stated clearly the Tibet argument has no place here.
I've done the service of repeating that link for you.
 

lastmagi

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McTojo said:
Are you becoming over emotional Lexicon...

McTojo said:
You are way too emotional and you need to stop with the Japan bashing.

lexico said:
Please prove your claim with proper evidence and argumentation as per accepted rules of logic, first by defining emotional, by demonstrating that member Tokis Phoenix is being emotional, and by proving that you, McTojo, are not.

Agreed with lexico. I don't know if you noticed, but you're using both more exclamation points (indication of excitement, need to give more energy to statements), and also using stronger choices/phrasing of words (seen in basically most of posts of whatever you've written). Kind of emotional there. Rather hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

Also, I request that you stop considering this "Japan-bashing." Why is it that reasonably criticizing a country's actions considered "bashing"? I think of bashing as unreasonable attacks on a country based on scanty evidence. Are you suggesting we look at Japan with rose-covered lenses? This rather implies that history itself is totally irrelevant to the present.

And the Japanese don't need China's forgiveness because China had been just as hypocrical and animalistic as Japan in her past against the poor monks and nuns in Tibet. You have human rights issues that you haven't even touched upon either. Japan does NOT need you to forgive her.

Irrelevant. Since when did pointing out the flaws of one country become a defense for another country? This is about Japanese actions and Japanese responses. Even more, your subsequent posts after this persist with the Tibet topic. Stay on topic. If you want to rail against Chinese actions in Tibet, go ahead but in another thread (even though such railing will of course be more as a response to this discussion than anything else, thereby making the justification of making your argument in the first place questionable)

Even if China chooses to hold a grudge then fine because it doesn't change anything.

Kind of mars their relationship.

You sound like Nanking was the worst atrocity every committed. Again, it's people like you who exaggerate things to the point where it starts to sound absurd. When you compare the sufferings of other peoples in other nations during different times in history Nanking doesn't even come close.

It's not the Nanking massacre that bothers me the most. It's the flat denial of people to accept its importance. This is an industrialized nation, which should indicate some level of education, which should indicate some level of awareness for one's responsibilities. That is not the case here. That some Japanese would continue to whitewash their history indicates an insecurity to learn from its mistakes and grow and be more responsible in the future. Have you ever read Richard Wright's The Man Who was Almost a Man? I haven't read it in years, but if I reacall correctly, it's about adult irresponsibility, among other things. Here's a summary:

Classzone.com has been retired
Dave, a poor boy in the South, desperately wants a gun, which a storeowner offers to sell him for two dollars. Dave asks his mother for the money. She agrees to the purchase because Dave's father needs a gun. Dave buys the gun and is fascinated by it. Plowing the fields the next morning, he decides to shoot the gun. To his horror, he unintentionally shoots and kills the mule he is working with. Later that day a crowd gathers to bury the mule and investigates what happened. Dave tells the others that the mule died because it impaled itself on the point of the plow. It becomes clear that Dave shot the mule, and the crowd mocks him. Dave must pay for the mule with two years of free labor. That night, Dave hops a train out of town, taking the gun with him, telling himself that he is going somewhere where he can be a man.

Draw your own conclusions.
 

bluubear

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I've got nothing more to say. People have said all that I wanted to say =p
Everybody reads so much and list quotes and evidences - I am "intimidated" lol

joking joking =)

I don't think the Rape of Nanking was ever exaggerated as such. They could have come up with something like the "Rape of Shanghai" ( I mean a lot of people died there too...). The reason the Rape of Naking has been publicised so much is not due to its horrendous nature I don't think. It's probably more because of the fact that some people deny its occurence totally (I've come across quite a few Japanese blogs regarding that). That's what angers the Chinese the most really ~ and same thing with the Comfort Women.

It's the lack of treatment of these problems that have resulted in people talking about them more. Once they get properly treated like the Holocaust, people would of course forgive everything (not forgotten of course) and move on with their life.

It's not about "oh yeah let's all go hate Japanese people because of this and that". Well, some people may, but certainly not myself =p
My Japanese friends are very nice people :)
 

Hyde_is_my_anti-drug

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Luc said:
I know some Chinese people and they get so pissed off if someone calls them a Japanese humm I guess this is a reason:

Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 Chinese
civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered by the invading
troops. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of
them were then mutilated or murdered.

Thousands of victims were beheaded, burned, bayoneted, buried
alive, or disemboweled.

To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for
these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of
Japanese society denies that they took place at all.

evil:

I heard that Japan had apologized for that and that China didn't wanna hear it (which is totally understandable, FYI, so I'm not attacking China they have my deepest sympathies actually). But since I don't live in Japan or China all's I've got to go on is hear say so I'm not sure about that. Someone currect me if I'm wrong or let me know if I'm not 'cause I'm not sure myself. And I am NOT condoning what happened either! I've had too many people say that to me about this stuff. But I do know that some Japanese deny what happened. I just thought that the nation itself had apologized but I'm not sure.
 

Hyde_is_my_anti-drug

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I intend to read it over once I have some time. I was just hoping for a simple answer to my question, if it was true or not about the apologizing issue. *shrugs* Oh well.
 

Tokis-Phoenix

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McTojo said:
You are way too emotional and you need to stop with the Japan bashing. What happened over sixty years ago is history and Japan should not pay out any more ODA money. And the Japanese don't need China's forgiveness because China had been just as hypocrical and animalistic as Japan in her past against the poor monks and nuns in Tibet. You have human rights issues that you haven't even touched upon either. Japan does NOT need you to forgive her. Even if China chooses to hold a grudge then fine because it doesn't change anything. You sound like Nanking was the worst atrocity every committed. Again, it's people like you who exaggerate things to the point where it starts to sound absurd. When you compare the sufferings of other peoples in other nations during different times in history Nanking doesn't even come close. Do the math from 1937-1938 Nanking Occurred; 300,000 purportedly died , but of course every year that figure rises ! Do the honorable thing by first stating unbaised facts !


I am not being over emotional, neither do i think that just because there are worse attrocitys that were committed in the world throughout this point of history that the nanking massacre was any less important or worse than it already is. Can you name any redeeming qualitys about the nanking massacre? And i am not exagerrating the facts, in fact i have given facts, what undesputable facts do you have at hand?
And you are wrong about wether china holds a grudge or not or wether japan compensates its victums or not changes anything, you forget there are many people still alive today whose lives were directly affected by the massacre, and many thousands of people who were born after the massacre by people who lived through it and had to live with the suffering of their parents, their childhoods impaired by the events. How would you like it, if your mother and sister were gang raped to death and your brother and father burn't alive or buried halfway in the ground and ripped apart alive by dogs while you saw them suffer and people like yourself, said "oh, don't get emotional about it, **** happens u'know" or somthing similar?
Im not japanese nor chinese, but i do have an opinion on this subject and refuse not to ignore these events. I do not believe i am over-emotional about the subject but i am not emotionally closed about it either, to say the least its a very feeling and thought provoking subject anyways. And also, as it appears other members have already repriminded you on bringing other debates/subjects onto this topic, let us please stay on topic.
 

bluubear

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Hyde_is_my_anti-drug said:
I intend to read it over once I have some time. I was just hoping for a simple answer to my question, if it was true or not about the apologizing issue. *shrugs* Oh well.

Hi Hyde, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I don't think any of Japan's apologies were very specific. They were more along the lines of Japan regrets the suffering and misery that it cause during the war, etc.
Even if Japan did specifically apologise regarding the Raping of Nanking, I can understand why China may not have accepted - if the apology were sincere, then any denial of history should've been outlawed by now.

Searching through Wikipedia Japanese regarding
Rape of Nanking, they are many academics in Japan who acknowledge that the massacre did occur, the centre of argument is more regarding how many people actually died (on that issue I don't think we'd ever know). What strikes me though is that quite a few Japanese academics (professors, honourable professors, etc) totally deny the occurrence of the massacre.

窶ケsナスE窶敕帚?凖ィツ静?ツ・窶堙懌?堙壺?堙ォ窶堋オツ静?
ヒ?ェ窶敕岩?廬窶堙俄?敕帚?凖ィ窶拮ツ、窶堙懌?堙壺?堙ォ窶堋オ窶拮ツ、窶ケsナスE窶堙遺?堋ゥ窶堙≫?堋ス窶拮窶堙遺?堙??堙?津??堙寂?堙ェ窶堙ゥツ。窶堋ア窶堋ア窶堙??堙坂?敕帚?凖ィツ静?窶堙俄?慊斃?ェ窶堋キ窶堙ゥツ。ナステ・窶堙闇陳、窶ケ窶?ナステ停?堙梗U]窶氾ゥ窶禿倪?督セ[/U]ツ(ナスGナスツ鞘?ケLナステ陳)ツ、窶彡窶吮??ツ青ウ窶督セ ツ(窶佚アツ殖窶佚・ナ?wツ講ナスtツ)ツ、窶愬停?吮??窶禿ャツ修窶慊ケツ(ヒ?クツ催陵?ク窶佚・ナ?w窶ケツウナステカツ)ツ、窶「yテ?V窶敕可信ツ(窶愿コ窶怒ツ「窶愿ャ窶ケナセツ」ナ?w窶ーテッ窶板敘ス窶督)ツ、ヒ?「窶披?ヲナ停?厖?ェツ(窶ケテ淒陳サ窶佚」ナスjナ陳、窶ケ窶?窶ーテ?)ツ、ツ焦ク窶ーツェナ?ツーナスナクツ(窶督セツ青ッ窶佚・ナ?wツ静ュナ津」窶ケツウヒ?ァナスjナ陳、窶ケ窶?ニ短ニ停?愴耽ツーツ)ツ、ツ絶┐ナスR窶廾ツ宗ツ(窶督セナ?C窶佚・ナ?w窶ケツウナステカツ)ツ、窶從窶「窶敖渉クヒ?ェツ(ツ湘」窶冫窶佚・ナ?w窶督シ窶農窶ケツウナステカツ)ツ、窶佚・ナ陳エツ康窶冕ツ(ナ。ツ?窶コ{窶ー@窶佚・窶コ{窶ケツウナステカツ)ツ、窶處窶怒窶吮?ー窶悩ツ(窶凩窶挌窶佚・ナ?w窶督シ窶農窶ケツウナステカツ)ツ、ツ青シ窶ーツェツ債?織ツ(ナ坦ナス窶毒スjナ?w窶ーテッ窶ーテッヒ?オツ)ツ、ツ深窶彡ツ渉?ツ(窶愿コ窶怒窶氾ーナスjツ修ツ青ウ窶ケツヲ窶ケc窶ーテッ窶ーテッ窶卍キツ)ツ、窶楼窶禿ャ窶廾ツ、窶氾ゥ窶禿伉青ウ窶冕窶堙遺?堙??堋ェ窶ケ窶懌?堋ー窶堙ァ窶堙ェ窶堙ゥツ。


So to this day, I still don't think any apology made is as sincere as it should be - it's not just words people are after, it's more the actions - outlaw any attempts to rewrite history!
 

lastmagi

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Hyde_is_my_anti-drug said:
I just thought that the nation itself had apologized but I'm not sure.

Bluubear's right, it's about sincerity and action, not surface-level lip service. A look around the forums should yield some relevant discussions, such as:

How Do you feel about Japan's apologies for its war crimes?

What Japan should realize is that it's not only China and Korea who are complaining about their insincerity and denial of the whole matter, but anyone with a basic sense of human decency.

As an aside, that's what I love about JREF. We love Japan but we're willing to criticize it where it needs to be criticized. There are, of course, always those who feel that criticism=bashing, when in fact the very rejection and denial of reasoned criticism actually inspires more anger among those with valid complaints and raises questions about the maturity of that who was criticized.
 

Hyde_is_my_anti-drug

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bluubear said:
Hi Hyde, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I don't think any of Japan's apologies were very specific. They were more along the lines of Japan regrets the suffering and misery that it cause during the war, etc.
Even if Japan did specifically apologise regarding the Raping of Nanking, I can understand why China may not have accepted - if the apology were sincere, then any denial of history should've been outlawed by now.

Searching through Wikipedia Japanese regarding
Rape of Nanking, they are many academics in Japan who acknowledge that the massacre did occur, the centre of argument is more regarding how many people actually died (on that issue I don't think we'd ever know). What strikes me though is that quite a few Japanese academics (professors, honourable professors, etc) totally deny the occurrence of the massacre.

虐殺否定説・まぼろし説
一般的に否定派、まぼろし派、虐殺なかった派などと呼ばれる。ここでは否定説に統一する。主な研究者は鈴木明(雑誌記者)、田中正明 (拓殖大学講師)、東中野修道(亜細亜大学教授)、冨澤繁信(日本「南京」学会理事)、阿羅健一(近現代史研究家)、勝岡寛次(明星大学戦後教育史研究センター)、杉山徹宗(明海大学教授)、渡部昇一(上智大学名誉教授)、大原康男(國學院大學教授)、竹本忠雄(筑波大学名誉教授)、西岡香織(軍事史学会会員)、深田匠(日本歴史修正協議会会長)、前野徹鈴木正男などが挙げられる。


So to this day, I still don't think any apology made is as sincere as it should be - it's not just words people are after, it's more the actions - outlaw any attempts to rewrite history!

Thank you for answering my question. 🙂
And there is no way to prove exactly how many died in the Rape and Nanking just like you can't get an exact number for the German consentration camps. And I guess an apology is better then nothing at all.
History is history. You can try to erase it but the scars will always remain. The problem is some Japanese want to pretend it never happened and China isn't willing to let go of it at all. Put the two together and you have this mess.

lastmagi said:
As an aside, that's what I love about JREF. We love Japan but we're willing to criticize it where it needs to be criticized. There are, of course, always those who feel that criticism=bashing, when in fact the very rejection and denial of reasoned criticism actually inspires more anger among those with valid complaints and raises questions about the maturity of that who was criticized.

I remember on another forum someone said to me "let me disillusion you about Japan" but I have no illusion to disolve. That's how I know I truly love Japan is that I know her history, her good points, her low points, and everything else. You can't just look at the good a nation's done and decide wether you like it or not based on that. And at the same time you can't just look at the bad either. One must look at both. That's one thing I don't like about the world, the world hardly ever truly looks at both sides. Which is what leads to bigatry and war and the kind of blind hatred you see so much of these days.
 

bluubear

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Luc said:
I know some Chinese people and they get so pissed off if someone calls them a Japanese

(apologies, a bit off the topic... :p just remembered a few things from my childhood)

Ah, certainly not in my case (despite having watched so many movies about "Japanese Devils" when I was young). I remember when I first went to school in Australia (Yr 4), all these kids at school started saying Konnichiwa at me - and being an ignorant little kid I had no idea what they were on about! I think I was mistaken to be a Japanese girl because of my hairstyle at the time (somewhat like the 70s typical Japanese school girl look?).

Now thinking back, I think I always had some sort of connection with Japan, from the kiddo days when I spent hours watching Saint Seiya and Ultraman (yes, it was interesting...hmm, on one hand we had Japanese anime, on the other we had WWII movies everyday - Note 1) like so many other Chinese kiddys to being greeted with "Konnichiwa"... when I was young I had all these Japanese playcards with Ultraman characters and I used to wonder when would I ever be able to read them. And then I went to a high school where we had to learn languages in Yr 7 and 8 - Japanese became my number 1 choice of course... and the enthusiasm in learning the language continued to this day~

Bleh, I don't know why I'm spilling out all these here, I guess "mistaken for Japanese" sort of made me nolstagic about my own experience as a kiddo~

Note 1
Coming to think of it... I don't think China actually tried to initiate anti-Japan propaganda at the time (despite some people claiming that), it was more like educating young kiddos like me to not forget history~ after all, we all got to watch Japanese anime and TV series and absolutely fell in love with them ^^

Ganbatte ne Japan... =p History can be forgiven but not forgotten!
 

Martialartsnovice

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Bear with me, I havent completely mastered quoting in posting okay.

Posted by lexico:
What is genro ? Apologising is not enough, but taking legal action by illegalising Nanjing denial/minimisation is necessary if Japan wishes not to be considered as holding the victims of Nanjing in contempt.

Genro is the word for general in Japanese. I realize that apologies for these actions are never enough. Yes, what they did was wrong, to quote dreamtime Killing 1000 your guilty, Killing 1 your guilty.

So what Im saying is, that the people responsible need to own up for their actions. As for my post in which I made reference to the 9/11 theory, I was saying is that people of all races, nationality, creed, etc need to stop scapegoating and take responsibility for their choices and actions. I know that 9/11 is real, I was at school when it happened. I lost a grandma that very same day to cancer.


But getting back to the subject at hand, What happened at Nanking can never be undone or covered up. To Urreco, I want to say this: You are entitled to what you choose to think or believe. But as for the idea of revisionist theories entering textbooks, I think theres enough of that in schools today as it is. People are being lied to, and its sad. If people today and in future generations cannot learn from history, whats to keep us from repeating the same mistakes.

Any nation that cant learn from its past, is in a world of hurt.

To qoute bluubear: History can be forgiven but not forgotten
 

urecco

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Martialartsnovice said:
To Urreco, I want to say this: You are entitled to what you choose to think or believe. But as for the idea of revisionist theories entering textbooks, I think theres enough of that in schools today as it is. People are being lied to, and its sad. If people today and in future generations cannot learn from history, whats to keep us from repeating the same mistakes.

Any nation that cant learn from its past, is in a world of hurt.

To qoute bluubear: History can be forgiven but not forgotten
Whatever I say, I think you will believe what you learnt from your textbooks or whatever.

So first of all, I want to ask you one thing.

What do you think the contravertial textbook mention about the Nanjing Atrocities and WWII in general?
 

sabro

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I'm not certain I understand the question:
"What does he think the contraversial textbooks mention about the Nanjing attrocities and WWII in general?" ... huh?...

Is this really an opinion question? Isn't the point that the textbooks in question downplay the entire period of history?
 

urecco

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@Martialartsnovice
@sabro
Sorry for my poor English.

I mean
"How does the textbook downplay the Nanjing Atrocities?"
"How does the textbook justify the WWII?"
"What do you think the textbook says?"
 
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