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Rape Of Nanking

sabro

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Thank you urecco. I wasn't certain what you were asking. I don't read Japanese and I haven't seen one of the textbooks in question. So I'm just going off second hand reports- from the international press which claim that Japanese text books downplay Japans role and conduct during the early to mid 20th century. It would be interesting to hear firsthand from someone who has access to a high school text.
 
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As a teenager war victim (1941-1945 ) when Japan occupied Indonesia, I saw the most horrible and cruel acts of Japanese military. I would not call them animals since I respect animals.
I have learnt that the excuses from all the Japanese governments are hollow.
To me those excuses sounds more like;" Sorry, that you feel bad about the war, but we set the Indonesians free from you Dutch people and those atrocities you mean to have seen were no more than incidents".
That's how it comes over to me.

I have been to Japan, I have visited Nagasaki, and of course I feel sorry for all those poor innocent Japanese who were burnt alive, really horrible I fully agree.
But absolutely nowwhere did I see even the smallest sign about what Japan did during WW II in Asia. I saw nothing but self-pity around me.
Nanjing 1937, Unit 731, the Japanese governments refused/refuse to talk about these atrocities, the Japanese children will not learn about those crimes.
What a difference with Germany, where children learn their real history, good or bad.
Japanese history is Hiroshima and nothing else.
 

lastmagi

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Elizabeth van Kampen said:
As a teenager war victim (1941-1945 ) when Japan occupied Indonesia, I saw the most horrible and cruel acts of Japanese military. I would not call them animals since I respect animals.
I have learnt that the excuses from all the Japanese governments are hollow.
To me those excuses sounds more like;" Sorry, that you feel bad about the war, but we set the Indonesians free from you Dutch people and those atrocities you mean to have seen were no more than incidents".
That's how it comes over to me.

I have been to Japan, I have visited Nagasaki, and of course I feel sorry for all those poor innocent Japanese who were burnt alive, really horrible I fully agree.
But absolutely nowwhere did I see even the smallest sign about what Japan did during WW II in Asia. I saw nothing but self-pity around me.
Nanjing 1937, Unit 731, the Japanese governments refused/refuse to talk about these atrocities, the Japanese children will not learn about those crimes.
What a difference with Germany, where children learn their real history, good or bad.
Japanese history is Hiroshima and nothing else.

Thank you for sharing your experiences, Elizabeth, and I'm sorry you had to face such horrific events. I think it's a very valuable contribution to have a first-hand account, and it makes the self-interested face-saving of the Japanese government even more striking. I don't know what this perpetual denial of responsibility will do to Japan in the long-run. Obviously it renders their government and citizens who deny these war crimes as immature, spoiled children, but some spoiled children grow up being even more spoiled. Their general behavior regarding this issue, I think it is fair to say, has been ethically retarded at best.
 

sabro

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Elizabeth and Hiroyuki thank you. I knew there was a reason that I frequent this thread and the information you two have given is absolutely golden.

Elizabeth, I can only echo what Lastmagi has already written so eloquently. I hope that you have or will consider putting your life experiences to paper. Your single account would be far more powerful than all the official denials and weak appologies could ever be.

Hiroyuki- I will read the textbook material at the soonest possible moment. In this way, I could at least cite one first hand examples rather than third hand info gleened from our media.

Domo Arigato Gozaimasu.

Sabro
 

Mandylion

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Elizabeth van Kampen said:
Japanese history is Hiroshima and nothing else.

If there is a sentence that sums up the Japanese government approach to WWII, it is this single, brilliant line. Thank you Elizabeth.

In the link to the translated text - I find it very interesting that there are specific numbers for dead and wounded are connected to the battle for Okinawa and the total costs of the war. They leave out even Hiroshima and the Tokyo firebombing, only mentioning that the numbers for the Nanjing "Incident" are disputed.

My apologies, but "Incident" makes it sound like an accident, like "oops, the dog had an incident on the carpet." (I don't mean to make fun of the situation).
 

lastmagi

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Thanks so much for the pdf link, Hiroyuki. I appreciate it. I'll look it over when I have time.

sabro said:
Elizabeth, I can only echo what Lastmagi has already written so eloquently. I hope that you have or will consider putting your life experiences to paper. Your single account would be far more powerful than all the official denials and weak appologies could ever be.

I didn't even know about Japan's involvement in Indonesia (pardon my ignorance- I'm poor at history), so this makes me interested in learning more.
 

pipokun

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Elizabeth van Kampen said:
Japanese history is Hiroshima and nothing else.

I agree it is a really nice line. But just take the 60yr after the war more into considerations if the history for Japanese'd been only the A-bombs, why Japanese don't show any hostility against the US now. Do you think it is just because Japanese lost the war?

The first textbook dispute in the early 80' with China and Korea was started by misinfomation through J media coverages... And I see a lot of misguided debates without reading the textbook at all.

Anyway, you're lucky enough to see Japan now and have your J friends. So ask them what they or their kids were/are taught at their schools.

Really hope that you'd share more about your during and after-the-war story in Idonesia here or in your website.
 
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Hiroyuki, thank you ever so much for the history textbook of Fuso company. I have read all the 69 pages and will print them out tomorrow, I have to buy some ink.It is real good reading and of course on page 55 I found the part where Indonesia is mentioned.
( "Indonesians Welcome Japanese Soldiers as Liberation Army" When the Japanese troops occupied in 1942 having defeated Dutch forces, Indonesians lined the roads and cheered. Japanese forces were the liberating army to rid them of the Dutch.)

It is true that many young to very young Indonesians were cheering the Japanese army when they entered the big towns especially in Java.
Liberating the Indonesians? The reason was of course the OIL in Indonesia, the liberation was a thing of minor importance. What to think of the ten thousands of Romushas (Indonesian convicts) who died working on the Burma Railroad?
But is very interesting to read how the Japanese see the history in Asia.

Did you known that there lived many Japanese in the former Dutch East Indies? Quite some of them were spies.
The former Dutch East Indies was open for people from all over the world, eveyone who wanted to start a business on one of the thousands islands was welcome.
In 1928 the Dutch started talking about to take more and more Indonesians into the Dutch East Indies government. It was all too slow and it was too late.
As from 1947 colonies became forbidden, all nations have to be free.
Today it is easy for us to say that colonies are a bad thing, in the days before the war it was quite normal.

Holland has been occupied by Germany and by Japan in the former Dutch East Indies during WW II. There were about 300 000 Dutch living in Indonesia.
The Dutch did many bad things and just as many good things in Indonesia. Most of us who grew up in this beautiful country still love Indonesia and its people.

Thanks again Hiroyuki, it is good and very important for us civilians from all over the world to know the true histories and that we can openly talk about it.
 
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Pikopon,

I will continue with my website, I am blessed with a good memory and I only write down what I have seen with my own eyes.

I do a lot of research work on Internet about World War Two. There are really many documents to be found, especially from America and Australia Archives.

One of my Japanese friends lives in Tokyo and she showed me how her town was bombed again and again, it burnt all over. She said that people always talk about Hiroshima, but that Tokyo was also dramatic.
I have a picture of modern Tokyo hanging in my hobby-room, but when I visited the museum in Toyo, I saw how the old town looked like before it was bombed. Very nice indeed.

All wars are terrible, as long as this beautiful world exists there have been wars all over the world.
What I meant with "Japanese history is Hiroshima and nothing else" is because the Japanese government does not admit the atrocities the Japanese military committed "outside Japan" during WW II.
 

pipokun

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What makes you come to think of this? The recent textbook issue?
the Japanese government does not admit the atrocities the Japanese military committed "outside Japan" during WW II.

You don't have to answer here, but what I want you to know is your personal experience after the WWII. Do you think the war for independece really needed? Even after a lot of people suffered in the WWII, but some came back where they were. And I don't know why it still becomes the big news when your foreign minster went to Indonesia.
 
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Hello Pipokun,

You would like to know about my experience after WW II?
In the beginning of September 1945 Japanese soldiers protected our camp gainst young Indonesians who wanted to kill us. When the Japanese left we had British Indians to protect us. When it all became too bad we were transported to Semarang, between Christmas and New Year we were transported by boat to Sri Lanka, were we had to stay 5 month untill we were transported to the Netherlands. In January 1946 we received the news that my father was killed by the Kempeitai on the 25th of March 1945.
When we (mother, 2two younger sisters and me) arrived in Holland we were not welcome at all. Holland had suffered under the German occupation, they were not prepared to accept us nor listen to our stories.
I never said a word about the war in the Dutch East Indies, I started reading about the war in Europe, about what happened with all those poor Jews, I refused to talk about the my camp years. I didn't talk about Indonesia, nor about my youth. But when the doorbell rang I expected (for years) that it had all been a mistake and that my father had come back.
My mother couldn't pay my school, so I had to work. I wanted to learn English so I worked one year in Nottingham, England.
When I was 21 years old I went to Paris, with hardly any money at all, took some bread and water with me. Left Amsterdam on a Friday and came back on Sunday. I walked all over Paris, no money for the underground, and I only spoke a little school French, next to nothing. I hardly slept and I hardly ate anything but I felt happy for the first time since I had to leave Indonesia.
I got married and we emigrated to South Africa, Johannesburg, where I stayed almost 9 years and went back to Holland when my husband died.
After one year Holland I went to New York for almost two years.
From there I went to Lausanne, Switzerland, my job was assistant bookkeeper.
Met my second husband, had six miscarriages, my gynaecologist told me that this was because of the shortage of food, vitamines and so on as a growing teenager during the war. We adopted two children from India, a boy and a girl. We divorced in 1984 and I kept the children.
In 1996 I went with one of my friends to Indonesia, I will write about that time in my website. I can asure you that I came back as a complete differet person, very happy.
In 2000 I was invited to visit Japan for two weeks, it didn't cost me anything.
I am glad I saw your country, it is a very beautiful country, very polite people.

Now our Minister of Foreign Affairs, mr Ben Bot, he also comes from the former D.E.I, did you know? He said that the Dutch government no longer insists that the Indonesia became independent in December 1949. At last and 60 years too late we now have the exact dat of the Indepence Day and that is 17th of August 1945. The Indonesian President didn't expect Mr.Ben Bot to apologize for the political actions we took against the Indonesians, because he said, Indonesia did a lot of things that they shouldn't have done as well.

The Indepence of Indonesia, do I agree? Of course I do!
But it should have been done in a much friendlier manner, not through the Second World War. I admit, it would have taken at least 10 years longer, but was that really so bad?

Are there many Dutch from before the war still living in Indonesia? No!
Sukarno kickt us all out of the country and nationalized our money still in the banks blocked by the Japanese. People lost the country they loved and all their money and all the rest. My mother never received anything back at all where my father has worked so hard for.

Now after the speech from Mr. Ben Bot, Dutch firms are planning to start in Indonesia, but there are no plans to occupy the country. The Dutch people now going to work in Indonesia are young, not old like me.
 

urecco

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Elizabeth van Kampen said:
( "Indonesians Welcome Japanese Soldiers as Liberation Army" When the Japanese troops occupied in 1942 having defeated Dutch forces, Indonesians lined the roads and cheered. Japanese forces were the liberating army to rid them of the Dutch.)

It is true that many young to very young Indonesians were cheering the Japanese army when they entered the big towns especially in Java.
Liberating the Indonesians? The reason was of course the OIL in Indonesia, the liberation was a thing of minor importance.

This history textbook never mentioned libarating the Indonesians was main purpose.

Japan declared war US and Great Britain, maintaining that this was a war of survival and self-defence,
It says that the war was for self-defece not liberating Asian coutries according to Japanese government at that time.
This textbook doesn't mention whether that war is for self-defence or not.

The Assembly of Greater East-Asiatic Nations
In November 1943, Japan sponsored the Assembly of Greater East-Asiatic Nations. The purpose
of the assembly, held in Tokyo, was to seek the cooperation of the nations of Asia in the war effort,
and to demonstrate solidarity with other East Asian nations.
The initial goal of Japan’s southward advance was to obtain resources, but it also served to spur on
nascent independence movements in Asia.

It doesn't say liberating Asian countries was the main purpose. It was oil. This textbook admits it.

The casualties (both military and civilian) attributable to Japanese invasions were
particularly high in China.

Is it as problematic as it is reported by mass media?
 

Mandylion

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Japan often said it was "liberating" Asian nations from Western influence. It might/wasn't the main motivation behind Japanese expansion as you point out, but it was an offical, public line offered - this is when you get the start of the whole "Asia for Asians" lingo and the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere was very much a part of this logic. Also, plenty of right and ultra-right groups in Japan say they liberated East Asia, brough civilization and modernization to Korea, and in general provided a valuable service.

High school textbooks won't mention that the war was in self-defense because critics of Japanese educational policy would argue such language is simply an attempt to get out owning up to what happened all over Asia during WWII when the Japanese army showed up.

General history texts for public schools can only cover so much information. Your average high school student has neither the time nor the interest to look at all aspects of the early 1900's - politcal, economic, social, ideological - so I am not surprised such topics escape mention. A full understanding will begin by looking at Japanese history as far back at the Opium Wars (1839) IMHO. Also, textbooks have to walk a very fine line - they cannot look like they cover up Japanese aggression (to satisfy the left), yet they cannot be seen as a laundry list of brutality (to keep the right quiet).

Unless students go on to be history students in college or really good amature scholars, most people (both Japanese and American) will never get a good broad grasp of all the factors involved with the Pacific War. I know I haven't and I've been at this gig for some time now :)
 

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I'm very surprised that I actually bothered reading through the majority of these 10 pages of posts (x__x it all made me very sad. There was so much evidence given from non-Japanese and non-Chinese sources, yet they were refused because they were not 'primary sources' or that it was not in Japanese (Japanese sources may be biased, no? and so can Chinese sources as repeatedly mentioned).

I wish to believe that the problem lies solely in the Japanese government, and that it should not affect my likings for the Japanese people and the culture.. but it's become so difficult to continue liking them as much as I had before i had started to read all these posts.. I can not become ignorant and let the past slip simply because it is passed. It was not simply a matter of number, but also how these people were killed. I read that some people found that there was no need to apologize since the Chinese committed many brutal crimes too. But please keep events separate, many children, babies pregnant women, and elders were brutally tortured (torture = to kill without letting the individual die) and then killing them, did they deserve it because possibly other Chinese committed those 'brutal crimes' ? Will Japanese women, children, babies and elders be killed to justify for the crimes that other Japanese have committed in Nanjing to balance out the equation???

About the Japanese being innocent. There were many guilty Japanese who commited those war crimes, but few admitted to it and actually feel guilty about it, one admitted to it, and wished for the event to happen again (NOT INNOCENT ALTHOUGH HE ADMITTED).. There were doctors who lived in regret for the vivisections performed. There were few Japanese who visited the shrine commemorating the brutally murdered. I believe that those were the ones who were somewhat innocent as some of them were forced to perform the brutalities.

If you find my words deeply-biased, I'm very sorry, I am just deeply offended and hurt to see what some of the Japanese think of the issue. It is also sad to see that the governments have become so corrupt (this does include the United States government due to the deal made for the exchange of biological warfare research information).

To deny that the event has occured, to try and justify the massacre, to minimize what appears to be the impact of this massacre, to rid of evidence about the massacre (burning of documents/records, evidence) and to attempt to hide the event (for exchange of research results on how much pressure was to be exerted on the body of Chinese subjects before their eyes popped out of their eyesockets and blood out of their skin).. it is all a crime against humanity, it is inhumane, and not animal-behaviour either (animals behave better)..

Anyways...
I feel like (re-posting also) posting a few links
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos
http://www.amnesty.org/resources/slideshow/comfortwomen/
The second link was not of victims purely of the massacre in Nanjing, but it gave me an idea that such atrocities were performed in the same ways elsewhere too.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA220122005
 

lastmagi

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Hi Goatz, and welcome to the forum :)

You're right, it does get very depressing reading through all the transparent denials and evasions. For a time, I even avoided the forum because it was so discouraging to see others openly denying those war crimes with such blind faith and ignorance to everything around them.

I can't talk long, but thanks for the links. I'll be sure to look them up when I have the time.
 
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Hello Goatz,
Thanks a million for the links you have sent us. In my eyes China has suffered the most during WW II in the Far East, not only in Nanjing but also at the Unit 731 it was really all so inhuman what happened in China. People in Europe have no idea what happened in the Far East between 1937 and 1945.
They are not interested either. Especialy the geocities.com/nankingatrocities you sent us is a very good and clear article, also about all the propaganda that was made in those days. I am going to send a lot of this link to my friends in Holland and elsewhere in this world.
 

sabro

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I went to Elizabeth's website and it is very well done. She has completed about 33 pages - her autobiography from birth to the middle of WWII at the point where her father was taken by the Japanese. I stayed up until midnight reading it. I can't wait for the rest of the story.

Thank you Elizabeth for sharing your fascinating life.
 
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Sabro, thank you very much for your kind words. I have always tried to be very honest and never make things worse than they were.
I am writing my life story in English because it is very unknown that there was a Dutch East Indies and that it was occupied by Japan. Today it is a beautiful Indonesia!!

Thank you Sabro
 

sabro

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Do tachimashita-

I will check your site periodically for updates. Again thank you.
 

shiroma

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This book seems to be good for people who are interested in academic researhes, not ones cringing to what they want to believe.

The Nanking Massacre: Fact Versus Fiction, written by Shudo Higashinakano
The situation in Nanking in 1937 was similar to that in Iraq in 2004: prior to the capture of the city, Chinese troops stripped off their uniforms and mingled with the civilian population.
 

sabro

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I just read the intro and it sounds like another attempt at revisionism.
 

bossel

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sabro said:
I just read the intro and it sounds like another attempt at revisionism.
Yep, the same old revisionist arguments repeated all over. Could have been written by Urecco.:p
 
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