urecco said:@Dream Time
No matter whether it is less guilty to kill 200,000 than 300,000,
Japanese guilt never justify the exaggeration nor fabrication.
If number was not important at all, why have Chinese protesters been mad about rewriting the textbook?
It mentions that many POWs and civlians include women and children were massacred(killed) in Nanking (Nanking Incident)
A5573A said:Any of you heard of the Massacre in Port Arthur(Liushun, North East China)? It took place after Qing Dynasty was defeated in the War against japan in 1895. After Japanese troops occupied it, they slaughter the entire town(I would like to say its a city), only 36 people survived.
Unfortunatedly, an American Journalist called James Creelmean reported the butchery in Port Arthur to the whole world:
First of all, I have a doubt that China tried to add the figures which had already counted in another report.A5573A said:
The last number is total 195,249, which is obtained by the counting from different souces(Red Cross and local charities). It also provides the human labour used to count and bury the bodies, eg. In the first row, it says the World Red Cross sent more than 600 people.
However...... there may be questions about it. If you think Chinese made up this figure, I can not say anything.
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & VideosThe second question often raised by many is the credibility of burial records of the Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong), a 140-year-old charitable organization in Nanjing. Although their reports that recorded the burial of 112,267 bodies was adduced to the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, they were actually prepared for the tribunal after the war ended because the original manuscripts were allegedly all lost during the eight years of Japanese occupation.
Of course that does not mean that the Chung Shan Tang doctored their reports. The available Chinese documents of that time showed that the organization started burying the dead bodies scattered over certain parts of the city at the beginning of 1938 at the latest. Forty full-time staff and numerous part-timers buried their countrymen and women inside the city walls until March and worked outside of the walls in April.
It should be noted, however, that none of the other documents written by members of the International Committee or the Japanese authorities in Nanjing mentioned that the Tsun Shan Tang was engaged in burial work, while they recorded that another charitable organization, the Red Swastika Society, buried about 40,000 bodies.
Their burial reports also showed a rather disproportionate number of the bodies buried each month. In the first one hundred days from December to March they recorded 7,549 bodies, about 75 per day. In the last three weeks in April when they went outside the city walls, however, they claimed to have buried an additional 104,718, about 5,000 bodies per day.
Are you saying Nanjing Massacre is a lie because Japanese soilders, as you believe never slaughter civilians?
AFAIK,(if i am wrong please correct)Any of you heard of the Massacre in Port Arthur(Liushun, North East China)? It took place after Qing Dynasty was defeated in the War against japan in 1895. After Japanese troops occupied it, they slaughter the entire town(I would like to say its a city), only 36 people survived.
Which Japanese textbooks denies Nanking Massacre happend?the Chinese are mad because some Japanese history textbooks actually denies the fact that the 'Nanking Massacre' happened, and some textbooks calls it the 'Nanking Incident' to downplay the importance of the event.
Ur best...they are lives...not objects...Dream Time said:yes
but i am really sick of that whenever we talk about the Sino-Japanese war, some Japanese would argue about the number of deaths, it seems to me that they think that killing 100,000 people or 200,000 people is 'less guilty' than killing 300,000 people
these are lives, NOT OBJECTS!
When the Japanese faced with strong evidence they silence...and change the topic AGAIN...A5573A said:Is it the point you hold through out the whole thread? Are you saying Nanjing Massacre is a lie because Japanese soilders, as you believe never slaughter civilians?
What about we prove they committed mass murder in serveral(or say many occasions) from another perspective?
Any of you heard of the Massacre in Port Arthur(Liushun, North East China)? It took place after Qing Dynasty was defeated in the War against japan in 1895. After Japanese troops occupied it, they slaughter the entire town(I would like to say its a city), only 36 people survived.
Unfortunatedly, an American Journalist called James Creelmean reported the butchery in Port Arthur to the whole world:
JAMES CREELMAN AT
PORT ARTHUR in PDF format
Did I keep silence about Port Author atrocities?窶氾?铠赞 said:When the Japanese faced with strong evidence they silence...and change the topic AGAIN...
99% of the corpses you accept as victims. That's different from what's widely accepted.urecco said:Could you give me the reason why over 99% or corpses were men?
urecco said:Did I keep silence about Port Author atrocities?
What you said is exactly what I want to say to the Chinese.
Could you give me the reason why over 99% or corpses were men?
What is the evidence of 300,000?
What is solid evidence?
solid evidence of this is written by that old man....it's an enough proof already...or maybe to make you believe you need a time machine and travel back to ww2 times?? your anchestor is guilty...even if u tried to cover it...the truth will always there....urecco said:Did I keep silence about Port Author atrocities?
What you said is exactly what I want to say to the Chinese.
Could you give me the reason why over 99% or corpses were men?
What is the evidence of 300,000?
What is solid evidence?
Sorry I should have mentioned,bossel said:99% of the corpses you accept as victims. That's different from what's widely accepted.
No.They would not become emotional.Just want to add one more question--- Normally if an ordinary Japanese are asked about thier opinions over the NanJing Massacre, or in your view "the NanJing Incident", are they going to become emotional?
But you don't know what is the solid evidence or enough proof, do you?solid evidence of this is written by that old man....it's an enough proof already
urecco said:Sorry I should have mentioned,
According to the burital record of Red Swatika Society,over 99% were men.
It clearly denies the indiscriminate massacre.
@A5573A
No.They would not become emotional.
Some(mostly women) would say there was 300,000 massacre and others would say like what I say(Execution of POWs are disputable in Japan).
BTW,in your opinion,is Tsun Shan Tong's record reliable?
But you don't know what is the solid evidence or enough proof, do you?
A5573A said:I think we are wasting time over this issue.
Here are some claims from Western, Japanese Journalists and Chinese Governement.
This is a very sensitive and emotional issue for Chinese. Especially the number issue [the number of victims (see In the 1990s)] is very sensitive in China. And secondly, Chinese scholars are not fully up-to-date on Japanese research or Japanese sources. In a sense they are handicapped to appreciate the kind of research done in Japan.
[...]
Q: You mentioned the number of victims is still very sensitive (see In the 1990s). What is the latest scholarship on that particular issue?
Yang: It is not probably a good idea to begin with numbers. I think that's very difficult.
[...]
Timperley's work, as indicated in his preface to his book, the purpose of his book is not to defame the Japanese people. He gave credit to a Japanese journalist, Matsumoto Shigeharu in Shanghai, for sympathizing with what he was doing. So he made a specific point that there were conscientious Japanese. Not all Japanese were the same.
And what he included in the book were mostly reports from the [International] Committee for the [Nanking] Safety Zone. They are, as far as we know, generally credible reports by a third party even though you can look at specific cases. Specifics, yes, they were not on the spot when the rape was perpetrated. But how many rapes were perpetrated in front of a third party? Very few.
[...]
On the other hand, many Chinese are afraid of even touching the subject of reevaluating those trials because of the fear that once they open the reexamination, they think they are giving those deniers an opportunity to whitewash the whole thing.
Ultimately, I hope our view that we can reexamine it without justifying the cause of those who were tried will gain the majority support.... Of course some of them were innocent at least, according to the evidence presented. Some of the materials were not available.
If we look at the trial in Nanjing, how many of those battle records were presented? Almost none. Diaries? Almost none. Even those incriminating evidence was not available. So there were severe limitations in those two trails.
urecco said:How many muder did Robe witnessed?
How many rape did Robe witnessed?
CHINESE GOVERNMENT DO NOT REJECT SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH BY THIRD PERSON.
WE JAPANESE ARE READY FOR PROVING YOUR WRONG AND FABRICATION
WITH SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH AND MUCH EVIDENCES.
Are you referring to the beating of the dead horse ? That it's time to move on ? To what ?Martialartsnovice said:In dealing with the rape of Nanking, as one person already said, let bygones be bygones.
Richard von Weizsacker said:"There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the Holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."
"All of us, whether guilty or not, whether old or young, must accept the past. ... It is not a case of coming to terms with the past. That is not possible. It cannot be subsequently modified or undone."
"Whoever refuses to remember the inhumanity is prone to new risks of infection."
"Seeking to forget makes exile all the longer; the secret of redemption lies in remembrance."
I am not sure what you mean... it sounds unfinshed.Martialartsnovice said:But in dealing with the all the other war memories the world is having to cope with.
You call 9/11 a theory ? Which race ? What scapegoat ? Btw what does 9/11 have to do with the Rape of Nanjing ?Martialartsnovice said:I say to the 9/11 theory, that we as a planet need to realize that we cant keep shoving the blame on race, using them as a scapegoat.
Martialartsnovice said:Alo in dealing with Nanking, I know no formal apology can ever undue the wrong thats been done,...
What is genro ? Apologising is not enough, but taking legal action by illegalising Nanjing denial/minimisation is necessary if Japan wishes not to be considered as holding the victims of Nanjing in contempt. That would be a good beginning of anything resembling amends. This paragraph from Wikipedia is noteworthy for assessing the attitude of the Allies of WWII, esp. the US. Japanese war crimesMartialartsnovice said:though I think the remaining genro and soldiers who committed the crimes should be required to apologize, and make some amends for their actions.
Also noteworthy is how Willy Brandt apologised to the victims of the Warsaw ghetto in 1970. Willy Brandt (1913 - 1992) We have yet to see the day the Japanese government show true remorse as he.Wikipedia said:The Japanese military's behaviour and attitudes were clearly not unique. Until the early 20th century, western military forces had also engaged in acts against civilians and combatants which would be regarded as crimes, especially during the era of high imperialism in the 19th century. Practically everything the Japanese did and believed was performed earlier in history by the Allied powers, including theories of racial and cultural superiority that justified imperialism, genocide, biological and chemical warfare, rape, torture, forced labour and so on. In World War II, many Allied military leaders authorised tactics that they themselves recognised as war crimes, such as the bombing and strafing civilians. They also held that winning the war justified the use of these tactics. (See, in particular, the articles on Frederick Lindemann, Arthur Harris and Curtis LeMay.)
Compounding such hypocrisy is the fact that the Allied nations allowed many of the most serious Japanese war criminals to go free. Some become high level officials in the post-war government. After the Cold War began, controversial Japanese military, political and bureaucratic figures achieved respectability with the western militaries. They included those who conducted medical experiments on humans; their data was used by the west to further their own biological and chemical warfare programs, in case these were needed for use against the Eastern Bloc.
Tokis-Phoenix said:I think no one here can deny that the nanking masacre happened and it was a mass scale brutal, barbaric and unimaginably cruel act, crueler than cruel, it was evil to its core. During that time, the japanese not only became animals in their ways, but worse than animals.
All this forgiveness thing though, this "lets state the facts and make up" is one thing, but to be honest, i do not know how anyone could forgive the japanese for what they did if you lived through that era and were chinese.
You should read through this link, it talks about what led up to nanking, what happened in nanking and surrounding areas and talks about the facts, and i warn you, it has alot of gruesome gory pics on many of the pages;
Nanjing Massacre
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It would be nice if people could forgive each of other for these things, but i don't think you should expect it of people. It is somthing that will deeply scar and shatter your entire life. Im not offering a solution, but i know if i lived through that time i would be incapable of forgiving the japanese.
What i do know though now is that nothing like it has happened since with the japanese and chinese and i deeply pray that nothing ever will happen again like that. I think that "playing down" the nanking massacre, making it seem less relevant or deep/important is a crime though, how can you expect people to forgive others when your country is desputing wether the whole thing was as bad as it realy was? Personally i don't think it could have been any worse, there was nothing good about it, it has no redeeming qualitys. Playing down the nanking massicre in front of the victums eyes and lives is the biggest insult and hurt to their lives posible.
As for the facts debate;
"From the verdict, the 200,000 number did not include victims whose bodies were disposed by Japanese (as common in the early stages of the massacre) or by individuals Chinese other than the charities groups, nor did it include those who were massacred after the first six weeks. Therefore, the 200,000 number is the most conservative number. Adding the people murdered in smaller scale killings and whose bodies had been buried by other people, over 300,000 Chinese were massacred in Nanjing."
As to the facts about how many were killed, i wouldn't be suprised if even more people were killed because how do you count the bodys of thousands of people who have been burnt to ash's?
..... ..... ......
I realy like japan and china, i think they are both amazing and interesting countrys, most people on this forum wouldn't be here if they did not like japan in some way or another, but i cannot love japan for what it has done to china and other countrys, and china has also commited quite a few horrors throughout its history as well. Their actions scar their own country.
I would like to view japan and china as they are today, i am not running away or living in a dream world, but japan has committed a seriously evil crime and that is that. I will defend the chinese with nanking because i think it should be defended, i think it is wrong not to care about it. I cannot imagine myself living in that time, it must have been hell.
As for the Abomb, i think america could have ended the war in other ways anyways, there were very few people left in the japanese army that were in support of the war and the americans knew that when they dropped the bomb. The Abomb was a scientific experiment more than anything else, it killed too many innocent civilians. I think that is also somthing that the americans should owe up to while they critercise the japanese on nanking.
War brings out the worst in people, what is already there in us but dormant for most of the time, war turns people into barbarians and demons. The human race, no matter how many people it kills in the most aweful ways imaginable, no matter what centry you visit in our history we will always be committing such evils because i do not believe believe learn from these aweful things for the most part.
But i hope at least we would learn from nanking.
The americans have made war with iraq(isn't it jesus's homeland?), and are committing evils out there and have turned a civilised country into a hell hole for the most part. Most americans are supporting this war, maybe it is just me, but it seems to share many similaritys with vietnam. This war should not have happened, against an enemy that can barely defend itself. But im going off topic here so i should stop?
Anyways, i think the japanese should continue to owe up to nanking, i think they should give out as much compensation to the victums as truly posible, i think they should not expect the chinese to forgive the japanese though.
Such a crime is too evil to expect forgiveness for but i don't think that should be a reason not to make efforts to create an enviroment where forgiveness can be grown.
edir: for sp
Please prove your claim with proper evidence and argumentation as per accepted rules of logic, first by defining emotional, by demonstrating that member Tokis Phoenix is being emotional, and by proving that you, McTojo, are not.McTojo said:You are way too emotional...
By 'bashing,' which is not a well defined term, are you referring to 'aggression' ? If not, please define 'bashing.'and you need to stop with the Japan bashing.
I believe the thread topic is historical; is it not ?What happened over sixty years ago is history
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe China chose to refuse any more low-interest loans from Japan in the form of ODA in FY 2006 ?and Japan should not pay out any more ODA money.
Please be more specific about what you mean by this statement, as the concept you are trying to convey is foreign to me and your statement unintelliglbly brief.And the Japanese don't need China's forgiveness
Please direct all non-Nanjing Massacre topics to Chinese atrocities as you are straying from topic again. I have stated clearly the Tibet argument has no place here. I do not recall anyone on this forum calling the Japanese 'animal,' but IJA's forcing subhuman coercion of 'animal' behaviour as in the following quote.because China had been ... hypocrical and animalistic ... in her past against the poor monks and nuns in Tibet.
See here, here, and here. In fact you are the first member on this forum, as far as I can serach under key 'animal,' to call any nation 'animal.' In fact you have just insulted the Chinese as well as the Japanese by your name calling. Please explain yourself, for I do not believe your language behaviour is acceptable on this forum, McTojo.Muay Thai Boran's post no. 143 said:Japanese in Nan-Jing totally gang raped every single women, ladies, girls they they can came across. They raped using everything around them, they laughed at our parents generations with other parents standing there forcing to do animal acts on the raped victims.