PG-rated : 40 reasons to think that the Japanese are superficial => OFFTOPIC about relative sentence

[Mike Cash]

Split from another thread.https://jref.com/showthread.php?t=14509

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I need clarification on the reference to lack of "relative sentences". Do you mean a lack of a grammatical structure that serves the same function as relative clauses in English? Because if you do....they have one.

 

[Maciamo]

I need clarification on the reference to lack of "relative sentences". Do you mean a lack of a grammatical structure that serves the same function as relative clauses in English? Because if you do....they have one.

There is no equivalent of "which, that, who, whose, whom", etc. In Japanese the relative clause comes in front of the word or sentence to which it is related. That makes it very impractical to make complex sentences, which I affectionate particularily. Sometimes it is impossible, but even when it is, very often it is difficult to understand because you have to wait to say the relative clause before knowing what is the main subject of the sentence.

I am just trying to find an explanation to why Japanese always speak using (very) short sentences. If you don't think it is due to the clumsiness the grammatical structure, then what is the reason (lack of ability to conceive or understand complex sentences ? - I wouldn't dare to say that)

 

[Mike Cash]

There is no equivalent of "which, that, who, whose, whom", etc. In Japanese the relative clause comes in front of the word or sentence to which it is related. That makes it very impractical to make complex sentences, which I affectionate particularily. Sometimes it is impossible, but even when it is, very often it is difficult to understand because you have to wait to say the relative clause before knowing what is the main subject of the sentence.

I am just trying to find an explanation to why Japanese always speak using (very) short sentences. If you don't think it is due to the clumsiness the grammatical structure, then what is the reason (lack of ability to conceive or understand complex sentences ? - I wouldn't dare to say that)

I can't say that I have ever noticed that same faults with the relative clause formation in Japanese. They serve the purpose quite well. I have never thought them impractical or impossible.

Nor have I ever noticed that Japanese always speak using short sentences. Sentences tend to be of a length necessary to convey all the pertinent information. Of course, what is obvious from context need not be stated, which can lead to utterances which seem unnaturally short to speakers of languages like English. I have no experience with any languages other than English and Japanese, so I don't wish to offer conjecture related to them.

 

[bentenmusume]

I can't say that I have ever noticed that same faults with the relative clause formation in Japanese. They serve the purpose quite well. I have never thought them impractical or impossible.

Nor have I ever noticed that Japanese always speak using short sentences. Sentences tend to be of a length necessary to convey all the pertinent information. Of course, what is obvious from context need not be stated, which can lead to utterances which seem unnaturally short to speakers of languages like English. I have no experience with any languages other than English and Japanese, so I don't wish to offer conjecture related to them.

I have to agree 100% with Mike here.

This idea that it is impossible (or even 'difficult') to express complex thoughts in Japanese seems absolutely preposterous to me. Maciamo, you seem to have achieved a very high level of proficiency in the language, which makes it even more puzzling that you would say something like this.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I've had any number of fascinating coversations (certainly not lacking in intellectual content) with any number of Japanese friends. Is it possible that the people around you just aren't particularly intellectual, or simply don't feel comfortable discussing the the topics you're trying to discuss with them? (perhaps they don't feel confident in their knowledge of the topic, or they're trying to avoid a potentially controversial/unpleasant discussion)

Have you ever read an academic paper in Japanese, or spoken to or listened to a lecture (or even a simple interview on TV or something) by a professor or some other specialist in a particular field? Do you find that these people have trouble expressing the difficult concepts of their research? I certainly haven't found this to be the case. (Then again, like I said, I haven't found the conversation of my Japanese friends and acquaintances to be intellectually deficient either.)

I'd be interested in hearing more about your observations in this area, if only because they seem to be so completely different from my own -- I'm genuinely curious as to where you're getting these ideas from.

 

[Elizabeth]

I can't say that I have ever noticed that same faults with the relative clause formation in Japanese. They serve the purpose quite well. I have never thought them impractical or impossible.

Nor have I ever noticed that Japanese always speak using short sentences. Sentences tend to be of a length necessary to convey all the pertinent information. Of course, what is obvious from context need not be stated, which can lead to utterances which seem unnaturally short to speakers of languages like English. I have no experience with any languages other than English and Japanese, so I don't wish to offer conjecture related to them.

Mikecashさんの考え方で合っています。

This is also a friend's rather long-winded and extremely clear views on the so-called Japanese 'vagueness' and 'illogic' from a while back....
Certainly Japanese sentences are not always short -- even general newspaper or novels will regularly have cases of them running five or six lines or more, usually enumerating a series of facts or statistics that would almost certainly be broken up in English.

よく日本語はあいまいであるとか、論理的でないという意見は聞きますが
実際には日本語ははっきり、論理的に話すことのできる言語です。
ただ、日本人ははっきり断定的に物事を言ったり、あまり論理的に
日常会話で話をしたりすると、ちょっと変った人みたいな感じがするので
普通の人は割といい加減であいまいな話し方をしています。
要するに、日本語は論理的にも話せるし非論理的にも話せるという
特徴がある言語なのです。

Because you can't say something in the vein of "I've finally decided to use the interest on the money earned last summer traveling around doing part time work as a glass technician at a factory in Minnesota my stepfather inherited five years ago to buy my kid sister a garnet necklace for her next marriage next year." and all clauses and phrases need to at least have an implied particle, the entire language is somehow irreparably deficient and doomed from the outset ? :?

In my view Japanese more than covers up for it with their other distinctions, particularly in pronouns and conditionals, that we don't in bother with English. And if anyone doesn't agree with the priorities and mindset of the people, there's no one forcing you to stay.

 

[Maciamo]

Because you can't say something in the vein of "I've finally decided to use the interest on the money earned last summer traveling around doing part time work as a glass technician at a factory in Minnesota my stepfather inherited five years ago to buy my kid sister a garnet necklace for her next marriage next year." and all clauses and phrases need to at least have an implied particle, the entire language is somehow irreparably deficient and doomed from the outset ?

It may be hard to grasp if you haven't analysed the evolution and fate of other languages, but yes. Why do you think classical Latin was replaced by vulgar Latin, which evolved in the modern Romance languages ? The grammar was just too complex and inflexible. As a result, it disappeared. The same happened with Old English, which had declinations like in Latin, German, Russia, or I'd say Japanese to some extend (the postpositions like wa, ga, ni, wo... have the same function).

And that is not all. French became Europe's lingua franca after (vulgar) Latin and remained it until the early 20th century. Why do you think English replaced it ? Because its grammar is simpler (little conjugation, no gender for things which don't have one...) more efficient (more flexible structure, nouns can act as verbs, ease to coin up new words...) and its vocabulary bigger (from the fusion of some 6 languages in time). I am very aware of this, as French is my mother-tongue. You could believe that people usually find their own language better than others (especially proud French-speakers, whose language is considered the most refined, beautiful, etc.). But I am not a sentimentalist. I learn languages, "test them" and see which one works best. Japanese is my 7th language, and I'd say it is the best for expressing one's emotions, thanks to the many meaningless word that coney some feelings (da yo, desu ne, nan desu, kanaa...).

But as an intellectual and coldly logical and rational person, my preference goes for English - not French, not German and not Japanese. Naturally this is only the way I feel about these languages. But seeing how the popularity of English (again, not French and not Japanese) is increasing as a world language, even in continental Europe or in China, I can only assume that there are good reasons other than political or the beauty of Shakespeare's tongue for it. But that doesn't mean English speakers should not learn other languages ! As I say, Japanese is superior for expressing emotions, and French or Italian are more beautiful (subjective as this statement may be). But learning other languages also open up the mind, which is the prime reason people should do it.

 

[bentenmusume]

Because you can't say something in the vein of "I've finally decided to use the interest on the money earned last summer traveling around doing part time work as a glass technician at a factory in Minnesota my stepfather inherited five years ago to buy my kid sister a garnet necklace for her next marriage next year." and all clauses and phrases need to at least have an implied particle, the entire language is somehow irreparably deficient and doomed from the outset ?

You can't say something like that in Japanese? That's news to me.

僕はね・・・継父が５年前に継いだ、ミネソタ州の工場で去年の夏にガラス技師（？）のバイトして貯金したお金で、来年結婚する妹の結婚祝いにガーネットのネックレスを買ってあげることにしたんだ。

The above sentence is probably unnatural for two reasons:
1) My Japanese is far from perfect. Still, I'm sure a native speaker (or someone closer to native than myself) could make some slight tweaks in it to make it sound natural enough.
2) The original sentence, while completely grammatical English, is _not_ something that native speakers would utter naturally as is. It's _much_ more natural to break up sentences into easy-to-digest thoughts when you speak. "You know my sister who's getting married next year? I've decided to use the money I saved up last summer to get her a garnet necklace for her wedding present. I was working as a glass technician in my stepdad's factory -- yeah, he's got this factory in Minnesota that he inherited a few years ago."

Either way, the idea that you can't express complex sentences with multiple embedded relative clauses in Japanese is preposterous. They're no more difficult-to-form or awkward-sounding than they are in English.

 

[Elizabeth]

You can't say something like that in Japanese? That's news to me.

僕はね・・・継父が５年前に継いだ、ミネソタ州の工場で去年の夏にガラス技師（？）のバイトして貯金したお金で、来年結婚する妹の結婚祝いにガーネットのネックレスを買ってあげることにしたんだ。

The above sentence is probably unnatural for two reasons:
1) My Japanese is far from perfect. Still, I'm sure a native speaker (or someone closer to native than myself) could make some slight tweaks in it to make it sound natural enough.
2) The original sentence, while completely grammatical English, is _not_ something that native speakers would utter naturally as is. It's _much_ more natural to break up sentences into easy-to-digest thoughts when you speak. "You know my sister who's getting married next year? I've decided to use the money I saved up last summer to get her a garnet necklace for her wedding present. I was working as a glass technician in my stepdad's factory -- yeah, he's got this factory in Minnesota that he inherited a few years ago."

As a written example it looks fine (Except for the "traveling around"...., working a series of part-time jobs may be most natural ? and "interest earned" bits). The point being even in spoken English (or maybe more so) you can I believe theoretically use a greater number of parenthetical qualifiers which at some point become completely unintelligible in spoken Japanese.

I've finally decided to use the interest on the money earned last summer traveling around doing part time work as a glass technician at a factory in Minnesota my stepfather inherited five years ago to buy my kid sister, who happens to be his daughter by a previous marriage to an aunt on the other side of the family, a garnet necklace for her next marriage next year."

 

[Elizabeth]

- they can't think by themselves, and believe the media, commercials or what people tell them much too easily

そして、日本の新聞やは読者が喜ぶような書き方をしている場合が多いことは否定できません。
その二つの問題はお互いに無関係ではないのです。
新聞や日本テレビのニュースチャンネルはこの文章中にないのですけど。。。。
疑いなく、アメリカの新聞のほうが分析的であり、「被害者」＝可愛そうといった固定的な考え からより自由な記事を書いています。日本テレビのニューの番組を聞いたら、時々
内容がわかってもそ取材した人の考えや目的がわからない場合事があります。
ただ印象としては、メディア会社が放送されている話を徹底的に調査しないような感じがします。

 

[bentenmusume]

As a written example it looks fine (Except for the "traveling around"...., working a series of part-time jobs may be most natural ? and "interest earned" bits). The point being even in spoken English (or maybe more so) you can I believe theoretically use a greater number of parenthetical qualifiers which at some point become completely unintelligible in spoken Japanese.

Sorry, I wrote that quickly (and poorly) and missed some parts. It's far from a perfect example, but I think it at least shows that the type of sentence structure isn't impossible in Japanese.

But my other point is that nobody would really say a sentence that long and involved in English either. In speech, it's _natural_ to break things down in such a way that the person you're talking to will understand everything. Especially if the listener isn't familiar with the factory in question, or doesn't know your kid sister, no native speaker would just naturally ramble off this string of complex modifiers.

If the issue is just parenthetical qualifiers in speech, I don't see how these are so awkward in Japanese either.

"I'm thinking of going to that new ramen shop by the station -- yeah, that one that was on TV the other day, and that everyone's been saying is so good."

「駅前の新しいラーメン屋に行こうと思ってる――そうそう、このあいだテレビに出てた、なんかみんなすごく美味しいって言ってた店」

...or something like that. Again, the naturalness of my Japanese may not be 100% perfect, but still -- I'm just not seeing it. I've never found that the Japanese language is actually incapable of forming "complex" sentences or sentences with multiple relative clauses or anything like that.

 

[Elizabeth]

But my other point is that nobody would really say a sentence that long and involved in English either. In speech, it's _natural_ to break things down in such a way that the person you're talking to will understand everything. Especially if the listener isn't familiar with the factory in question, or doesn't know your kid sister, no native speaker would just naturally ramble off this string of complex modifiers.

If the issue is just parenthetical qualifiers in speech, I don't see how these are so awkward in Japanese either.

"I'm thinking of going to that new ramen shop by the station -- yeah, that one that was on TV the other day, and that everyone's been saying is so good."

「駅前の新しいラーメン屋に行こうと思ってる――そうそう、このあいだテレビに出てた、なんかみんなすごく美味しいって言ってた店」

...or something like that. Again, the naturalness of my Japanese may not be 100% perfect, but still -- I'm just not seeing it. I've never found that the Japanese language is actually incapable of forming "complex" sentences or sentences with multiple relative clauses or anything like that.

Obviously it isn't incapable, just markedly less so than English. And for these purposes I'm more interested in what is intelligible, rather than natural,speech
But I'm not in a good position to judge, either....jtさんの日本語は完全なものとは
ほど遠いかもしれないけど、私と比べて、確かに日本語で書き方がとおりますよね。
Maciamoさんがこの議争を始めたので、彼は適当な例文を作ったらいいでしょう。

 

[bentenmusume]

My comments about the language didn't spark as much discussion as I was kind of hoping they would (wishful thinking?) but I just have to comment again on this list as a whole, because I feel quite surprised honestly that so few people are having the same reaction to it that I am.

Maciamo, I hope that what I'm about to say isn't going to come off as insulting, because I know you didn't mean any ill-will by posting this list. I read your posts often, and know that you are a very thoughtful person with many very carefully-considered opinions. That being said, this particular post of yours (the original post) leaves me feeling very ill at ease.

I know you say that you're not trying to disparage the Japanese people, and you qualify your list by saying that you're only looking at one aspect of the Japanese mindset. Still, in the end, though, it seems to come down to you saying that shallowness (and intellectual immaturity?) are inherent qualities of the Japanese people as a whole. I, personally, think that this is both untrue and a rather hurtful and pointless thing to say or even imply.

The fact that you say that you could also post a similar list of reasons why the Japanese are so polite or disciplined doesn't really change anything, I think. As an analogy, imagine a white supremacist saying something like "These are all the reasons that I think blacks are intellectually inferior to whites. But hey, I'm not saying that they're all bad -- I mean, I could just as easily point out how good they are at sports!" Likewise, saying that the Japanese may have other good qualities doesn't really "soften the blow" of calling the entire nation (or the majority of it) shallow -- rather, it just sounds patronizing.

I think perhaps we just really don't see eye-to-eye here, as I know we had a similar discussion in your thread about brain structure. I just can't help getting this sense from your posts that on some level you think that the "average" Japanese is intellectually underdeveloped compared to the average European, and that this not only environmentally determined but also an inherent quality of their language and even their anatomy, and this is something that I absolutely cannot agree with.

I do, however, respect your right to your opinions (even if they're very different from my own) and would welcome further discussion.