Old fashioned Japanese

[Nysha]

I've been studying Japanese only for a few months. Besides Internet (and until I can get lessons), I'm mainly using the book "Grundkenntnisse Japanisch" (1999) from Shin'ichi Okamoto, which I think is a good and complete book ( if a little bit dense and ... in German).
While I was reading some reviews of this book, I came across one that said that the Japanese teached there was a little bit "old-fashioned". I also read somewhere on this forum that the language has evolved drastically in the last 50 years.
I would like to know if there are some important changes I should be aware of. I guess for the basic lessons i'm learning now there shouldn't be much of a problem (maybe some words aren't used anymore but the basic grammar shouldn't change that much.... i hope ). But I don't want to be learning the false things, specially not at this early stage.
Sorry if the question is a little bit vague, I assume you cannot tell me all the things that have changed, and I surely cannot type all the book's lessons here, but maybe you can point me in the right direction (is it the way to build the sentences, vocabulary... ?). Then I can maybe compare those things with other material.
Thanks.
g

 

[epigene]

Hi Nysha!

Welcome to the Nihongo Forum.

I have googled and found Mr. Shin'ichi Okamoto here:
Essay:

It is his essay on teaching the Japanese language (specifically on the use of "kore," "sore," and "are"). From what he writes, there is no old-fashionedness in his writing. His Japanese is standard, educated Japanese. It may look old-fashioned to young people who are used only to colloquial Japanese used exclusively among friends and lavishly using words currently in fashion. It may also look strange to Japanese language learners whose main source of Japanese learning is anime and manga. But, this is how educated Japanese adults write.

The evolution of the Japanese language may be drastic if you look into the details, but the basic structure, grammar and vocabulary remain unchanged. A Japanese movie made 50 years ago can still be clearly understood by Japanese today.

I don't know anything about the book you are using to learn Japanese and don't know what you mean by "dense," but if you mean the book's inclined to be pedantic, that may be the reason for you feeling that his Japanese is old-fashioned. As far as language usage is concerned, there is absolutely no problem. But if you don't like the approach he uses, it may be time to find another textbook.

 

[nhk9]

The info in the webpage is a bit dry for the beginner, but nonetheless may serve as good reference. To build vocab etc., it's always good to learn with friends who are at your level, or maybe slightly better. You should then discuss your findings with a native speaker (but I don't know if there are a lot in Austria). You may want to focus on the Japanese that is used in daily situations, such as ordering food etc. Just don't put too much energy learning words that you are not gonna use any time soon (for example, while it's worrthwhile to learn how to say "apple" in Japanese, you may want to learn how to say "shish kebab" later.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I agree with epigene. The way the homepage on her post is written is not old-fashioned, but rather literate and educated. This should be your ultimate goal, in my opinion.

 

[Nysha]

Thanks a lot for your help!!

I was afraid that there had been some big change like the "Deutsche
Rechtschreibung" in German (where suddenly a lot of words had to be
written in a different way).

About my book I'm pretty happy with it. By "dense" I meant dry, It
already starts in lesson 1 to write in kanji/kana (pronunciation of the
kanji is also in kana too) which is a little bit draining, but at the
same time it was what I was looking for. I didn't want a book that was
written in romanji, and although it's hard sometimes, I guess it is the
best way to get used to the kanas. I also like that the grammar is very
well explained, and it gives the basic instruments to build small simple
sentences instead of teaching complicated ready-made sentences. Also the
German is quite easy (I'm Spanish and written German can be very complicated sometimes). A little bit of colour and pictures wouldn't do
harm though. ; )

And polite and literate is definitely the way I want to learn. If I go
to Japan and the people have to deal with my poor Japanese, better if at
least it sounds polite !

There are not so many possibilities to talk with native speakers in
Austria, but I live near Munich and there is a group who meet there once
a month with Japanese to talk/learn the language. I just have to feel a
little bit more confident before I give it a try. Until then I'm
learning a lot in this Forum!

Thanks again.

g

 

[doinkies]

Thanks a lot for your help!!
I was afraid that there had been some big change like the "Deutsche
Rechtschreibung" in German (where suddenly a lot of words had to be
written in a different way).

There was one after WWII...doinkies has a Japanese phrasebook from 1944 for U.S. soldiers, and in the book they give both romaji and the Japanese text. In this book, all kana presented is katakana, and there are many kanji that are either not used today or were simplified after WWII. There are also some archaic-sounding words like 塵紙 (chirigami) for tissue/toilet paper, 宿屋 (yadoya) for hotel, and 手ぬぐい (tenugui) for towel that are barely ever used today. But unless your book was published before WWII I don't think the vocabulary or grammar or writing in it should be very old-fashioned at all.
(doinkies should probably scan some pages from that 1944 phrasebook, because it might be interesting for others to see, but the pages are small and hard to scan and I don't want to cut the book apart.)

 

[epigene]

There are also some archaic-sounding words like 塵紙 (chirigami) for tissue/toilet paper, 宿屋 (yadoya) for hotel, and 手ぬぐい (tenugui) for towel that are barely ever used today.

Doinkies-chan, they're not archaic yet!
We differentiate between トイレット・ペーパー and 塵紙 , 宿屋 and ホテル and 手拭い and タオル . Toilet paper is the one that comes in a roll (Western style), chirigami is paper for similar use cut into sheets. Hotel is a Western-style place to stay (usually a ferro-concrete structure), while yadoya is used for small (and maybe rustic) inns in rural areas, although it is more common now to call them minshuku. Towel in Japan is the fluffy type that Westerners commonly use, and tenugui is Japanese-style towel (cotton cloth of shorter length) you see people use at bon -odori and other traditional festivals.

 

[doinkies]

Ah, it's just that I rarely see those words used nowadays so I figured they were archaic, and I brought these words up with Kyoko-san and she said that mainly おばあさん and おじいさん use them...^^;;

 

[Elizabeth]

Ah, it's just that I rarely see those words used nowadays so I figured they were archaic, and I brought these words up with Kyoko-san and she said that mainly おばあさん and おじいさん use them...^^;;

The only term in an older text I'm almost sure is obsolete would be 女中 for maid. Nowadays you'd have to say お手伝い（さん） or メイド for female servent/live-in housekeeper and probably some others when it is used at all...

 

[epigene]

The only term in an older text I'm almost sure is obsolete would be 女中 for maid. Nowadays you'd have to say お手伝い（さん） or メイド for female servent/live-in housekeeper and probably some others when it is used at all...

Yes, you're right. The only place I hear 女中 is old dramas. In period dramas like 大奥（おおおく）, you hear women with bearing of high social status, liked a lady-in-waiting at Edo Palace, addressed as お女中 .
お手伝いさん appears to still be acceptable, but the politically/socially correct term now is 家政婦 （かせいふ）for a housekeeper and ヘルパー if one is a nursing care provider.
メイド nowadays refer to the cos-play girls or girls who work at "maid cafes."

 

[Elizabeth]

Yes, you're right. The only place I hear 女中 is old dramas. In period dramas like 大奥（おおおく）, you hear women with bearing of high social status, liked a lady-in-waiting at Edo Palace, addressed as お女中 .

Oh, that is interesting. Luckily I just rediscovered a 1994 article in 朝日新聞 interviewing a 家庭の変遷 researcher on this phenomenon so let me read that more carefully first and get back to this thread.

It does say, though, that 明治期に、下女などの言葉から、女中に。さらに、
「お手伝いさん」 に変わる with the popularity of 女中 at a peak during the pre-war 1930s.