Missionaries in Japan

[Mars Man]

I'm sorry for my brusqueness and aiding in the derailing of this thread, as I refrained from going into detail about my experiences with missionaries.

Good evening there nice gaijin !! Nice to hear from you again. For myself, I would not say that you 'derailed' this thread; it's still very much here and still very much alive. Only some of the detail and such that had come out before will come under a heading which fits such discussion better. No sweat bro !!
(or gal !!)

I hear you on your experience. I have known some very pleasant LDS people when I was in Arizona and Japan. I never will forget one aquaintance here in Japan from the LDS church who had a number of parties (not a missionary man himself though he attended services it seemed). At one party some elders from the church came, and he kind of put on some piety.

One point, nice gaijin, I would say that if anyone ever argues for inconsistencies or contradictions in the Bible, they don't believe in that inspiration talk either, just like you. Have a good one, and stay in touch !!

 

[Buntaro]

nice gaijin,

You said,

"I'm sorry for my brusqueness and aiding in the derailing of this thread...."

--> You did not derail the thread at all. You said what needed to be said, and it actually helped to get the thread back on track.

"... I'm a bit put off when people start turning to the details or contradictions in the scriptures...."

--> I agree. Also, I am put off by people saying that their way is the only way. (I find that quite offensive.) Actually, the only way that they will know this is if we tell them. Thanks for helping us to tell them!

"This is one of my difficulties in dealing with missionaries, they can't understand my stance on the book(s) they hold in such high esteem."

--> Dealing with missionaries is an art that can be learned and improved. As a matter of fact, I spend a good deal of time helping people defend themselves against missionaries.

Also, one of the most important things we can do is to understand the other person. If we can get missionaries to understand us, things will go a lot better. (But can it be done...?)

"Everyone gets defensive about their beliefs, that's why I prefer to have ideas."

--> That's a fascinating way to approach it, to have ideas instead of beliefs.

"While I was in Japan I only encountered missionaries once, and they were Mormon."

--> A lot of us have Mormon missionary stories. I actually came across a Mormon missionary in Japan who did not speak Japanese well!

"... for the most part they are just doing what they think is right... aside from being a minor nuisance."

--> I guess that is the crux of the issue, isn't it - whether what they are doing is right or wrong. Is the (1) lack of respect for my religion, (2) for my beliefs, (3) for my right to believe as I see fit, and (4) their telling me what to do that I find offensive. Perhaps you have learned to tolerate it well. I congratulate you on your ability to put up with the missionaries.

As I said before, I *love* deep religious and mystical discussions. But this assumes a certain amount of open-mindedness. Missionaries who step over this line, (1) (2) (3) (4), are missing out on the discussions. (I have found many answers on questions that the Bible leaves un-answered.) Unfortunately, missionaries miss out on this information. I see it as their loss, not mine.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

You are being drawn into the manipulation that fundmentalists are famous for using. Don't let them get to you. Try using my response: "I see that being a Christian makes you happy, and I am glad to see that you are happy being a Christian. Unfortunately, Christianity does not work for me." If they then ask why it does not work for me, I am willing to provide examples (provided they seem to be an open-minded person.) It works for me

Sorry for the late response Buntaro.

I'm glad this response works for you, but I have not yet reached that stage and I'm not sure I ever will. I may be naive, but I am holding on to the hope that if I continue to engage in debate - even with the closed-minded - that something will get through. I see that your experience has taught you that this doesn't happen, but I'm not ready to give up yet! I think it is one of those things you have to come to yourself. In a way we are not so different from the missionaries. I have a compulsion to tell them about my ideas and a hope that someone will understand, while you suggest that I accept the truth as you have found it! Ironic, huh?

 

[Buntaro]

Tsuyoiko-san!

Believe me, whenever they tell me that they are automatically right and I am automatically wrong, when they say that anyone who disagrees with them is going to Hell, there are a lot of things that I would like to tell them! The funny thing is, I feel just as passionate about my religion as they do about theirs.

I wish you luck in trying to get through to them. Let me know how it goes.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Thanks Buntaro! This discussion has really helped me to see that in my own way I am as zealous in my conclusions as the missionary!

 

[Pararousia]

Ok here's my own mormon missionary story:
Several years ago late on a Friday night, I'd had a hard week and was chillin out on the sofa with all the lights in the house off except one on the stairwell. Our house is 300 feet back in the woods off the road and the back yard is fenced, but alas, at that time we had no dog in the back yard. My husband wasn't home yet and it's completely dark outside, got the picture? So I'm chillin on the sofa and suddenly there's a loud knock on the BACK door! I jump outta my skin! So I quietly creep up to the back door window and take a peek out. That's when I see the "elders'" name tag on their clean white shirts. Never was I so glad to see a couple of mormon missionaries on my porch!
(Didn't let 'em in, however!)

 

[Buntaro]

Tsuyoiko-san!

I believe that is is good for us to be enthusiastic. (Somehow, zealous is not what I am thinking about....) But we must follow these rules:

Everyone is allowed to follow their own religion. (I am very happy to let Christians be Christians. I wish they would return the favor....) We must help others to find their own spiritual path, even if that path is different than our own. If I can help a Hindu person increase their spirituality, even though I am not a Hindu, I am all for it. (Hinduism is something I know little about.) As a matter of fact, I am sure that you and I and Hindus have a lot in common. The more spiritual discussions that you, I, and Hindus, etc., can have (where everyone's belief system is respected), the better. Within this context, the more excitied you get about your own spirituality, the better.

I wish I could have these kinds of discussions with Christians, but I cannot. To them, it is their way, or the highway.... How sad! Look at the spiritual discussions they miss out on.

But, we have to put that aside. Look for openminded-people to have deep mystical discussions with. Have a great time!

 

[Mars Man]

Tsuyoiko-san!

I believe that is is good for us to be enthusiastic (I am very happy to let Christians be Christians. I wish they would return the favor....)

Good morning Buntaro !! nice to hear from you again, and I do agree with you on these two points. I can hear what you're saying about that 'my way or my way' type come on that comes from the Abrahamic-based groups. I have studied Hinduism a little and read the biggest book for them and such, have lived with people from Gujarat, India for a little more than a year, and got very little religious 'come as you are' type stuff.

I think that what concerns me the most, and this relates to the missionary thing, is that there are a lot of innocent, kind hearted people out there who can sucked into these belief systems not knowing details and history--and some of what they (Christian and Islamic and Jewish--though there is almost no proselyting in Jewish circles) really sounds, and looks good, if you don't know the details. This can actually end up by-passing a portion of a person's life !! Why? How? Because, the style of living that these groups expect and instill is simply not necessary in final reality. Not that a degree of sprituality is not there, and is not needed, but these 'rules' (esp. the law based ones, Judism and Islam) I think that's why, as somehone mentioned before, those who do join, say JW or Mormon groups and then catch the unreality of them and leave, are often quite upset that a portion of their otherwise 'normal' lifestyle's time has been lost forever. And what about the children of those in these groups? That has already come up on this thread (or the one on Christ in Japan).

I would say that spirtuality--and it is important--does not need any 'system'.

What would you say there Buntaro, and Tsuyoiko and others.

 

[Buntaro]

Mars Man,

You said,

"I have studied Hinduism a little and read the biggest book for them and such, have lived with people from Gujarat, India for a little more than a year...."

--> The most important thing, and the most difficult thing we can do, is to understand people who are different than us. Your experiences overseas are a perfect example of what all of us need to do more.

"... there are a lot of innocent, kind hearted people out there who can [be] sucked into these belief systems..."

--> Sadly, this is exactly what missionaires try to do. Sadly, too, they are often successful.

"This can actually end up by-passing a portion of a person's life...."

--> This reminds me of the cults that rob people of years of their lives. How sad!

"... those who do join, say JW or Mormon groups and then catch the unreality of them and leave, are often quite upset that a portion of their otherwise 'normal' lifestyle's time has been lost forever."

--> That is why I am so active in speaking out against the negativity I see around me. That is exactly what this thread, in this forum, is here for.

"And what about the children of those in these groups?"

--> This is a topic that comes up a lot on the Buddhist forum:

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/

I have found that children who choose to leave a religion and have fundamentalist parents have the most heart-wrenching stories that we could imagine. These stories motivate me, all that more, to stand up to the missionairies.

"I would say that spirtuality--and it is important--does not need any 'system'."

--> My response is a little different. There are different types of people, and, as a result, we need different kinds of religions. Some people quite enjoy having a system. (Others do not!) We need to get both groups to understand each other.

Which brings me back to the same ol' topic, religious tolerance, which the missionairies cannot tolerate.

 

[Mars Man]

Which brings me back to the same ol' topic, religious tolerance, which the missionairies cannot tolerate.

Howdy there Buntaro,

Thanks for your understanding and further enlightening !! I feel that I can feel your intenseness, your yearning for the betterment of the world's religious fabric. Yeah, I would love to better it all too, if only I could.

'Tolerance' , now there's an important word in a lot of ways, really. It may actually be on this point alone that you and I may not see so similarly (on so many others it seems we think in rather close lines), but I, for one, feel that maybe that's no big deal either. My sweet dear mom--not that she's dead or anything--used to always put it into my ears. . . 'it takes all kinds, to make the world go round.'

The reason I say that is, although I do consider myself to be a tolerant type person, in a lot of ways, I am seemingly less tolerant for untruthfulness, as long as 'truthfulness' on some matter can be fairly established by the majority of those who have the knowledge and insight to percieve. That may be one of the main reasons for my standing up for all those innocents.

Nice to hear from you again !!

Nice gaijin, yo !! You see, this thread is still alive and kickin' !! You did no harm whatsoever; hope to hear from you again !!

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I would say that spirtuality--and it is important--does not need any 'system'.

I completely agree. When I came away from organised religion, it was not just that I no longer believed what I had been taught, but the lack of spiritual freedom that troubled me. For me, spirituality is a very personal thing, and not something I want to share with a room full of people.

 

[Buntaro]

Mars Man-san! Tsuyoiko-san! O mata se!

I am reminded of a description of what happens (supposidely) when a person is ready to enter Nirvana. It has been said that the person is not asked what religion they belong to, even whether they believe in God or not. What they are supposidely asked is, how spiritual they are, and what compassionate things they have done as proof. This seems to fit the idea that a system is not necessary.

:genji:

 

[Revenant]

Revenant,

What misconceptions do you see?

Well, I don't wish to defend the infallibility of the Bible, or any of the facts presented. I do frequent a lot of boards, and find that people have a lot of odd ideas about what Christians believe, or why they believe that. More so, while I don't follow the faith, it is probably one the least tolerated faiths, and I wish to lessen the polarization that the faith brings. I would disagree with parts of it, but I don't wish to get worked up about it. I find that those who find something they dislike about a religion, or any other issue, person, or groups of people, start being extremely subjective about it. They find other reasons to justify their dislike of the faith. People are naturally subjective when it comes to their dislikes, but that to me seems to promote intolerance.

Everyone gets defensive about their beliefs, that's why I prefer to have ideas.

An interesting thing that I've thought about too. I do think that some convictions are necessary. I wholly believe that empathy is the road to a happier existence, and the negative emotions need to be carefully tempered, and some perceptions manipulated, so things like intense, or unjustified anger, don't get in the way of empathy.

I would say that spirtuality--and it is important--does not need any 'system'.

I would completely agree, and even the faith that I have the most leaning towards, that being Buddhism, I find has doctrines, and symbols that are to help a person in finding emlightenment, can actually be a hindrance. All people are different, what maxim, matra, picture, etc, will help people take on a certain percespective, that draws up the desired emotion, will be different for everyone.

Christianity, even with all it's contradictions, does seem to work very well for some people. The practitioner carefully follows such maxims as, "love your neighbor as yourself", and verses that tell them to be like Christ, who according to the gospels, had a lot of admirable qualities. A Christian will envision a love perfected in Christ, and seek to fulfil that same kind of love. There are some other great verses that go into compassion, gratitude, or spell out more carefully what love is.

The Christians that can successfully ignore that which they don't have an explanation for, will just forge ahead with that that he does, and they won't be bothered by such things as, a perfect being of love making people suffer eternally, or some of the events in the Old Testament.

I do absolutely believe that for most people, spirituality should be something they can find on their own terms, free of a religions doctrine, etc. I like to read a lot on the different faiths, but avoid the symbols, and set guidelines that are a part of faiths.

I would agree with the poster that said children of fundamentalist families can have it horrible. Hell fire and Brimstone families inspire a kind of pain in their children. It is a do this or suffer eternally. So some children have gotten into theology at a very young age, cause they are living in fear of hell. Fear is just to live a pain before it happens (if it does), and it isn't a healthy emotion to have for extended periods of time. To love means to promote happiness, so preaching fear doesn't fulfill that definition.

 

[Mars Man]

"love your neighbor as yourself"

There are many 'human universals', as I call them, in the writings or the first century Christians (the NT) as well as the many other religious writings. You have highlighted a very important point there too, I'd agree. These 'human universals' don't need an originator because they more obviously came along with the animal itself. In otherwords, no one needs to say (and there's little room for the historicity, anyway) to say "Jesus said, 'It is better to give than to recieve.'" because it was already a part of human understanding. Yes, the 'universal' is to be held true--but it doesn't matter who started it. (And it wasn't likely some Essene Jew of the first century.)

I'm glad that you are honest about your position. You seem to be very mellow and sincere about wanting to make that 'worldwide religious fabric' better for all !! It's nice hearing from you. Catch you all after I come back from our sea-side camping trip, starting tomorrow !!

:atsui:

 

[Buntaro]

Revenant,

You said,

"... I don't wish to defend the infallibility of the Bible...."

--> It is the "discrepancies" in the Bible that prevent me from being a Christian. But if the Bible works for you, I am happy to to hear it.

"... people have a lot of odd ideas about what Christians believe..."

--> I would be curious to hear what these ideas-seen-as-odd are. Feel free to share them, if you have time.

"... it is probably one [of the] the least tolerated faiths..."

--> I agree. But I see four reasons for this: (1) Christian intolerance of other religions, causing other people to be intolerant of them as a response, a reaction. (2) There are ideas in the Bible that just do not make sense. (3) Christian missionaries going around bothering people, and putting down other people's faiths. (4) The idea that Christians will automatically go to Heaven because they are Christians, and non-Christians will automatically go to Hell just because they are non-Christians.

(1) I am all for religious tolerance. I would very much like to see Christians and everyone get along. How much of this do you see caused by Christian intolerance? And vice versa?

(2) Biblical "discrepancies" have always been a big bug-a-boo. I have two reactions: (a) Christians have a right to believe whatever they want to believe, and I will fiercely defend their right to do so. (b) In our western society, learning to be a critical thinker is highly valued. I feel it is our duty, nay, our moral obligation, to teach critical-thinking skills to our children. It is our moral obligation to teach our children to use critical-thinking skills when looking at each and every religious idea, whethere these ideas are in the Bible, or anywhere else. Do you agree?

(3) I have already covered this in previous posts.

(4) What else need I say???

"... I wish to lessen the polarization that the faith brings."

--> I agree. The way to do this is for everyone to address issues (1) (2) (3) & (4). You feel the answer is for everyone to ignore doctrine and address universal ideas. I wish it could be that easy, but I don't think so.

Let's talk about dogma. (I prefer the term dogma to doctrine. I feel there is no need to sugar-coat the term. I believe in certain dogmas, and I am willing to admit it.) I am fascinated by the question, "What happens to us after we die?" Many people are fascinated by this question. I hope *more* people become fascinated by this question.

However, the answer to this question can only be found within dogma. To me, there is no way around it. (Would you agree?) Dogma is a two-edged sword, and we need to "not throw the baby out with the bath water."

"... I don't wish to get worked up about it."

--> I agree. I always try to stick to facts, instead of using an emotional approach. Which brings us back to the "My dogma is better than your dogma" discussions. I love to compare my dogma with yours, with Christians', with Buddhists', with anybody's dogma. The trick is to not let it fall into "My dogma is better than your dogma" disaster. It often does, which leads to people getting all worked up, as you have described. We CAN discuss and compare dogma without getting all worked up about it. (Do you agree we can...?)

"I find that those who find something they dislike about a religion, or any other issue, person, or groups of people, start being extremely subjective about it."

--> That is why objective discussions, like the one we are having now, are so important.

"... I do think that some convictions are necessary."

--> Ah, but how to draw the line between convictions and dogma? That is the crux of the issue.

"... even ... Buddhism, I find has doctrines..."

--> As a matter of fact, my worst experiences with missionaries were with Buddhist missionaries, not Christian missionaries!

"Christianity, even with all it's contradictions, does seem to work very well for some people."

--> I agree. I hope that Christianity continues to help raise people's spirituality. I always like to point out that, even though it does not work for me, I am glad that it works for them.

"The Christians that can successfully ignore that which they don't have an explanation for, will just forge ahead with that that he does...."

--> I have two reactions: 1. Good for them! 2. I believe that the day will come when they find the "non-explanations" unsatisfying, and they will need more. It is the natural way of things. No doubt it will happen for each person now willing to accept "non-explanations".

"I do absolutely believe that for most people, spirituality should be something they can find on their own terms, free of a religions doctrine, etc."

--> To me, religious activity is all about increasing our level of spirituality. Dogma can help, and dogma can hinder. For the many people who believe in dogma (myself included), I hope they can find dogma that works.

"I would agree with the poster that said children of fundamentalist families can have it horrible. Hell fire and Brimstone families inspire a kind of pain in their children.... To love means to promote happiness, so preaching fear doesn't fulfill that definition."

--> I hope these discussions will lead to the end of suffering (and increase of love) caused by organized religion.

 

[Buntaro]

Mars Man,

Sea-side camping trip? Photos...?

 

[Revenant]

Revenant,

You said,

"... I don't wish to defend the infallibility of the Bible...."

--> It is the "discrepancies" in the Bible that prevent me from being a Christian. But if the Bible works for you, I am happy to to hear it.

Well, I'm not Christian. I was raised in a Protestant Christian home (Seventh Day Adventist), and went to an interdenominational Christian school for most of my school years. I got on the forums, and started defending the faith I had been brought up in. At first it was easy, as some of the misconceptions of the faith were quite obvious, but then I started being asked questions that I couldn't defend, and my own readings convinced me that Christianity was good on mentioning the good traits, but didn't help any on actually taking these traits on. Buddhism did a far better job of that. Just for example, Christianity says to rid oneself of anger, malice, etc. But Buddhism actually has some perceptions to take on, perceptions that would actually help in doing this. It also agreed with much of what science was dicovering about the emotions.

"... people have a lot of odd ideas about what Christians believe..."

--> I would be curious to hear what these ideas-seen-as-odd are. Feel free to share them, if you have time.

I can't think off the top of my head about some of the misconceptions, but were I to see one, I would do what I could to clarify it. My mother is still very strong in the faith, and most people would account her as a wonderful person. I don't wish to see people like her percieved badly on account of their chosen faith.

"... it is probably one [of the] the least tolerated faiths..."

--> I agree. But I see four reasons for this: (1) Christian intolerance of other religions, causing other people to be intolerant of them as a response, a reaction.

Christianity has many adherents that don't diss other religions. They are a new wave of Christianity, understanding that to be intolerant is to drive people away from the faith. They will simply try to live a perfect example of Christ, and hope to attract attention to it in that way. I do meet the occasional Christian that proclaims meditations as contacting demons, or some such idea.

(2) There are ideas in the Bible that just do not make sense.

Absolutely, and as I said before, those that remain strong in the faith, find ways of explaining those, or just ignore them. I know a strong Christian that has done very well in his debates in a Philosophy forum. But it is also somewhat of a dying faith for this reason. I see a lot of young people rejecting that which they were brought up in.

(3) Christian missionaries going around bothering people, and putting down other people's faiths.

As one of the largest faiths in the west, there will be a few missionaries that don't respect another's point of view. Unfortunately, they are what a lot of people most vividly remember. I don't fault them for trying to win people over, as they actually do believe it is truth. Their intentions are for the most part good. We often try and win people over to our way of thinking.

(4) The idea that Christians will automatically go to Heaven because they are Christians, and non-Christians will automatically go to Hell just because they are non-Christians.

This was an idea that bothered me as well. But by definition of love, this makes zero sense.

(1) I am all for religious tolerance. I would very much like to see Christians and everyone get along. How much of this do you see caused by Christian intolerance? And vice versa?

The few that get people's goat. It seems the most vocal Christians are the ones that are intolerant, while there are many more that live it just for the sake of tradition, or community.

(2) Biblical "discrepancies" have always been a big bug-a-boo. I have two reactions: (a) Christians have a right to believe whatever they want to believe, and I will fiercely defend their right to do so. (b) In our western society, learning to be a critical thinker is highly valued. I feel it is our duty, nay, our moral obligation, to teach critical-thinking skills to our children. It is our moral obligation to teach our children to use critical-thinking skills when looking at each and every religious idea, whethere these ideas are in the Bible, or anywhere else. Do you agree?

This is why, when my child is old enough to be interested in spirituality, will I be happy to debate with him the various ideas in the religious world, and also point him to forums, where people ask questions that one doesn't come up with on one's own.

"... I wish to lessen the polarization that the faith brings."

--> I agree. The way to do this is for everyone to address issues (1) (2) (3) & (4). You feel the answer is for everyone to ignore doctrine and address universal ideas. I wish it could be that easy, but I don't think so.

Let's talk about dogma. (I prefer the term dogma to doctrine. I feel there is no need to sugar-coat the term. I believe in certain dogmas, and I am willing to admit it.) I am fascinated by the question, "What happens to us after we die?" Many people are fascinated by this question. I hope *more* people become fascinated by this question.

However, the answer to this question can only be found within dogma. To me, there is no way around it. (Would you agree?) Dogma is a two-edged sword, and we need to "not throw the baby out with the bath water."

The hope of an after life is one that I don't think much on anymore. Spirituality all comes down to how well one conducts oneself in the here and now. Theologists don't have an answer for what heaven exactly is, or what nirvana is. They are all very vague concepts. As I feel, I will do what I can to be of service of to people now, and the afterlife will sort itself out. I absolutely believe that spirituality is a series of intense questions that bring about the answers in time.

"... I don't wish to get worked up about it."

--> I agree. I always try to stick to facts, instead of using an emotional approach. Which brings us back to the "My dogma is better than your dogma" discussions. I love to compare my dogmas with yours, with Christians', with Buddhists', with anybody's dogmas. The trick is to not let it fall into "My dogma is better than your dogma" disaster. It often does, which leads to people getting all worked up, as you have described. We CAN discuss and compare dogma without getting all worked up about it. (Do you agree we can...?)

I agree, as I am very open-minded to new perceptions. Forums have been one the most honest places, where questions, and beliefs are laid bare, I have found that to be extremely helpful in my quest for truth.

"I find that those who find something they dislike about a religion, or any other issue, person, or groups of people, start being extremely subjective about it."

--> That is why objective discussions, like the one we are having now, are so important.

This is an excellent discussion, and I wish more religious discussions were like this on forums.

"... I do think that some convictions are necessary."

--> Ah, but how to draw the line between convictions and dogma? That is the crux of the issue.

To me, dogma seems to manifest itself in rules or laws that can't be rationalized. Convictions are those that have so far passed all questioning, and remain the truth. For me, the need for empathy has been the only conviction that has past all tests. It involves a lot of other things, like handling fear, or anger, or perceptions, but these are simply understandings that I have experienced.

"... even ... Buddhism, I find has doctrines..."

--> As a matter of fact, my worst experiences with missionaries were with Buddhist missionaries, not Christian missionaries!

The Buddhists at the a Buddhist forum were embarrassed at these few what they called conservative Buddhists who prosylatized (sp?). But Buddhism has far fewer laws or precepts that make little sense. Take the law against homosexuality in Christianity, it makes no sense, while Buddhism simply says to avoid sexual misconduct (although scholars are now challenging whether the NT passages weren't simply translations that couldn't carry all the original meaning of the word with it, and that the Mosaic laws were abolished when Christ died on the cross).

"Christianity, even with all it's contradictions, does seem to work very well for some people."

--> I agree. I hope that Christianity continues to help raise people's spirituality. I like to point out that, even though it does not work for me, I am glad that it works for them.

At times I wish I could convey the contradictions in Christianity to Christians, and at the same time, I don't wish to make them uncomfortable, like I'm testing them, seeing if they have the answers, or if they are confused. I feel that most Christians are in it for the tradition, and that it was the 'truth' they were brought up with. Those that don't question their faith, seem to just parrot the answers that were given to them in a sermon. They won't actually question it.

"The Christians that can successfully ignore that which they don't have an explanation for, will just forge ahead with that that he does...."

--> I have two reactions: 1. Good for them! 2. I believe that the day will come when they find the "non-explanations" unsatisfying, and they will need more. It is the natural way of things. No doubt it will happen for each person now willing to accept "non-explanations".

It is a slow process I feel, as those that have strong convictions now, simply don't question them. It is with each generation that the faith loses followers. Children question their parent's, and what is taught to them. They will not be satisfied with so many answers. Although, as I have mentioned, some will not question, and stay for tradition or community.

"I do absolutely believe that for most people, spirituality should be something they can find on their own terms, free of a religions doctrine, etc."

--> To me, religious activity is all about increasing our level of spirituality. Dogma can help, and dogma can hinder. For the many people who believe in dogma, I hope they can find dogma that works..

Buddhism is a fast growing religion, but even at that, so many aren't finding what they had hoped for, and that is enlightenment. I just read an article about a guy who left the Zen Buddhist doctrine, and simply meditated on his own. The questions that he posed to himself were just questions that naturally came to his mind, and it was then that he realized what he would call the truth.

"I would agree with the poster that said children of fundamentalist families can have it horrible. Hell fire and Brimstone families inspire a kind of pain in their children.... To love means to promote happiness, so preaching fear doesn't fulfill that definition."

--> I hope these discussions will lead to the end of suffering (and increase of love) caused by organized religion.

Organized religion has it's good and bad points. The community aspect can help people feel less isolated in their troubles with spirituality, and it can cause some to take whatever is told to them (not good).

Lastly, I would like to say that Christians make up a large perecentage of those working in places like Africa. My aunt and uncle spent four years there, giving medical aid (he's a doctor, and she's a nurse), cause they believed that as a Christians, they were to be compassionate. And they really are both very compassionate people, even if they are a little on the conservative side.

 

[Void]

It is the "discrepancies" in the Bible that prevent me from being a Christian.
But if the Bible works for you, I am happy to to hear it.

correct me if i am wrong. But to be a Christian means to follow the Bible or to
follow the way of Christ?
I would suppose that the 2nd.
Besides religiosity and faith are different things. You can have 1st without 2nd and faith without being religious. Or not?
If i am Buddhist then shouldn`t i look for the door Buddha has pointed?

I like 'Siddhartha' (sp?) by Hermann Hesse it describes perfectly the search of
human soul.

I would say that spirtuality--and it is important--does not need any 'system'.

I don`t actually remember, but i think, it was chinese saying: All people think
that they have to exercise their body and the mind, but why don`t they think that heart also needs practice?

I am fascinated by the question, "What happens to us after we die?" Many people are fascinated by this question. I hope *more* people become fascinated by this question.

i hope not. Well, in many cases concept of afterlife is what explains the accepted moral issues and restricts our mortido (and libido as well ). But it also keeps us away from today, from "now". Sometimes it`s better to ask yourself first: "how do i live?", because without answer to this question there won`t be the answer to "what happens after i die?" What if nothing happens afterwords?

well, our thinking has to be critical, our mind has to be questioning and searching, but, yet, not destructive, just for the mere sake of wrecking other people`s dogmas

 

[Buntaro]

Hi everybody!

I just returned form a weekend-long religious conference. They made one important point regarding missionairies. Hundreds of years ago, most of us lived in villages, where we were all of the same ethnic group, and all believed the same religion. Today, especially here in America, we may have families that are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, and Buddhist, all living on the same block. It is now a world of religious pluralism. It is this religious pluralism that is making things more difficult for the missionnaries. (In my opinion, this is a good thing.)

Revenant,

You said,

"My mother is still very strong in the faith, and most people would account her as a wonderful person. I don't wish to see people like her percieved badly on account of their chosen faith."

--> I do not think that she would be preceived badly because of her faith. She would be perceived badly if she tried to force her religion on someone else. That is a very big difference.

"Christianity has many adherents that don't diss other religions. They are a new wave of Christianity, understanding that to be intolerant is to drive people away from the faith."

--> I am not familiar with what is going on in present-day Chrisitanity. Do you see this as a big change? Are Chrisitans becoming more sensitive to their intolerance of others?

"I do meet the occasional Christian that proclaims meditations as contacting demons, or some such idea."

--> I have learned the best way to handle this. Tell them, "prove it."

"... those that remain strong in the faith, find ways [to] ... ignore [questions that challenge the non-logic of their religion]"

--> How sad.

"But it is also somewhat of a dying faith for this reason."

--> Perhaps this will motivate them to take a look at why this is happening...?

"Spirituality all comes down to how well one conducts oneself in the here and now.... As I feel, I will do what I can to be of service of to people now, and the afterlife will sort itself out."

--> This brings me to Void's comments, which I will address later.

"Those that don't question their faith, seem to just parrot the answers that were given to them in a sermon. They won't actually question it."

--> Ah, but I believe they eventually WILL question it. It is the inevitable result of people learning to use their critical-thinking skills. I am very much looking forward to watching this as it happens.

"To me, dogma seems to manifest itself in rules or laws that can't be rationalized."

--> This is a good definition. I was thinking of ideas like karma and reincarnation as dogma, but I have now changed my mind. Karma and reincarnation are not dogma, because they make logical and rational sense.

"It is a slow process I feel, as those that have strong convictions now, simply don't question them."

--> I have patience. I can wait. Please find the patience to wait along with me.

"Buddhism is a fast growing religion, but even at that, so many aren't finding what they had hoped for, and that is enlightenment."

--> I called myself a Buddhist for many years, but recently I have stopped calling myself a Buddhist.

"Lastly, I would like to say that Christians make up a large perecentage of those working in places like Africa. My aunt and uncle spent four years there, giving medical aid (he's a doctor, and she's a nurse)...."

--> Christians make good and bad karma, just like everyone else. I feel that the average Christian is making more good karma than bad karma.

 

[Buntaro]

Void,

Thanks for responding. This is starting to turn into a pretty good discussion!

You said,

"Correct me if i am wrong. But to be a Christian means to follow the Bible or to
follow the way of Christ?"

--> I believe that most Christians see no conflict between the two. Their religion IS their faith.

Actually, I have asked different people on occasion to define the word religion. I get some pretty interesting answers. Clearly, the words religion and faith mean different things to different people.

(What happens to us after we die? I hope more people become fascinated by this question.) "I hope not."

--> This leads to a comparison of Chrisitanity and Buddhism. Chrisitianity is more concerned with what happens in the afterlife. Buddhism is more concerned with what is happening right now. It has been said that questions like "Is there a God?" and "What happens to us when we die?" are irrelevant in Buddhism.

I guess it all goes back to what we focus on as important. The Buddhist and Christian focuses are completely different. But both systems produce fine members of society.

 

[Revenant]

Hi Buntaro! What exactly was the religious conference all about? A dialogue bewteen the different faiths?

--> I do not think that she would be preceived badly because of her faith. She would be perceived badly if she tried to force her religion on someone else. That is a very big difference.

For most people I would agree they wouldn't percieve people like my mother badly. I still run into a rabid atheist every once in a while, and these are the people I often get into debates with on the net.

"Christianity has many adherents that don't diss other religions. They are a new wave of Christianity, understanding that to be intolerant is to drive people away from the faith."

--> I am not familiar with what is going on in present-day Chrisitanity. Do you see this as a big change? Are Chrisitans becoming more sensitive to their intolerance of others?

Just the changing times. Christians realize that to win people over, they have to use different tactics. The old is getting a bad rap. Hell is also a concept that they are placing less emphasis on, as that also is sending people away from the faith.

"I do meet the occasional Christian that proclaims meditations as contacting demons, or some such idea."

--> I have learned the best way to handle this. Tell them, "prove it."

Yah! I don't care to get embroiled in that discussion. A challenge to their faith could produce a lot of hard feelings. For the last I guy who told me this, it was an experience he had with yoga before he came to Christ. After chanting that stuff, he heard a voice ask him if he wanted power and wealth. He was genuinely frightened of that voice.

"... those that remain strong in the faith, find ways [to] ... ignore [questions that challenge the non-logic of their religion]"

--> How sad.

In some ways, theologically, answers such as, "God does not live within the bounds of logic", make it easy to for them to dismiss so much.

"But it is also somewhat of a dying faith for this reason."

--> Perhaps this will motivate them to take a look at why this is happening...?

It already is. When so many ask them questions that they can't answer, they usually take a hard look at their faith. Usually a scientific or a philosphical questioning of the faith does the faith in.

"It is a slow process I feel, as those that have strong convictions now, simply don't question them."

--> I have patience. I can wait. Please find the patience to wait along with me.

I'm not worried about whether people believe Christianity or not, so long as it makes them happy, and they aren't bothering people with it. A time will come when few are Christian though.

"Buddhism is a fast growing religion, but even at that, so many aren't finding what they had hoped for, and that is enlightenment."

--> I called myself a Buddhist for many years, but recently I have stopped calling myself a Buddhist.

What do you call yourself now?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

What do you call yourself now?

Hi Buntaro! I would also like to know this. A few of your comments have intrigued me!

Karma and reincarnation are not dogma, because they make logical and rational sense.

Can you explain this? I have an inkling you are right, but I'm not sure how to approach it.

I believe in certain dogmas, and I am willing to admit it

That surprises me, as you don't seem at all dogmatic! What dogmas do you believe in?

 

[Buntaro]

Revenant-san! O tsukare sama!

You asked,

"What do you call yourself now?"

--> I am a member of something called Theosophy. I am a Theosophist. It works for me!

"What exactly was the religious conference all about?"

--> It covered mainly Theosophical topics and concepts, and applying Theosophy to our everyday lives. I enjoyed the conference immensely.

"I still run into a rabid atheist every once in a while, and these are the people I often get into debates with on the net."

--> I have decided to debate only people with open minds. As such, I do not debate with "rabid atheists" anymore.

"Christians realize that to win people over, they have to use different tactics."

--> It will be fascinating to see what they come up with.

"I don't care to get embroiled in that discussion. A challenge to their faith could produce a lot of hard feelings."

--> When I debate with closed-minded people, the purpose is not to convince them of anything. The purpose is to set up the boundaries I will not let them cross. With closed-minded people, it is only a defense mechanism. No real communication happens.

"After chanting that stuff, he heard a voice ask him if he wanted power and wealth. He was genuinely frightened of that voice."

--> I believe that opening up psychic faculties without a teacher is dangerous. This is a good book on those types of mistakes:

Confessions of a psychic by Susy Smith

Confessions of a psychic: Smith, Susy: Amazon.com: Books

"In some ways, theologically, answers such as, "God does not live within the bounds of logic", make it easy to for them to dismiss so much."

--> Perhaps the response is, "God does not live within the bounds of non-logic".

"It already is. When so many ask them questions that they can't answer, they usually take a hard look at their faith. Usually a scientific or a philosphical questioning of the faith does the faith in."

--> This is inevitable, and it is a good thing! I constantly hammer away at my belief system with scientific or a philosphical questions. So far, it has withstood every question. The more questions, the better!

"A time will come when [there are few Christians] though."

--> You have reminded me of a prediction on the future. Over a thousand years from now, it is predicted that a large number of people will have become psychic. At that point, psychic research will let everyone know exactly what the afterlife is like, etc. It is said that all form of religion - Christianity, etc., will disappear, and only the one religion will remain. I am very much looking forward to that day!!!

 

[Buntaro]

Tsuyoiko-san! Ojama shimasu!

I have re-thought my definition of dogma. I have now decided that karma and reincarnation are not dogma, as they make logical and rational sense (to me).

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Konnichiwa Buntaro-sama!

Can you explain your logic regarding karma and reincarnation? I certainly find them plausible ideas, but I can't come up with a rational explanation.

I have looked at Theosophy, even went to a couple of meetings, a long time ago.