Missionaries in Japan

[NagoyaIan]

They arent doing nothing wrong. They help the community and the people. They arent forcing people to join their religion, People just by their own free will.

Do you mean 'They arn't doing anything wrong', by any chance? And, if you ask me, they are. By coming to my house and trying to convert me, and by bothering me at the chikatetsu eki when I am running late, that's not a good thing to be doing. It's annoying and needless. Do I look stupid to them? Do they really belive I couldn't have already found thier Church if I really wanted to? And they arn't forcing people to join, just telling them they will go to hell if they don't.........which is nice.

 

[Mycernius]

I guess it would...it certainly confuses me!

Must be a local joke that out-of-towners like me would never catch.

Just to explain (and anyone else who is wondering) JW's are always hammering on about Utopia and how every JW is going there. My brother just has a little word play at their expense. If their going to waste his time, why not have fun? Take the Bible off them if you get the chance. It's literally disarms them. Or do what my Grandmother did. They quoted at her. She said they isn't write and promptly went off to get the big family bible. When she came back she pointed out that her bible (Websters, I think) said something different. They left

 

[tristasusen]

That was a pretty stupid post by Clawn.

NagoyaIan, That may have been annoying cause you were riding the subway. But it wasnt wrong. I dont believe they accused you of going to hell, Missionaries are taught not to do that. and If one specific missionary does that, they arent suppose to and they will get punished, because their partner will tell.

Also missionaries dont just rides bike going from door to door. Missionaries in Japan, go and clean the beaches and parks. The ones by my house helped build a community center.

BTW NagoyaIan, Your photos are awesome!!

 

[TwistedMac]

but whenever someone find out Im a mormon; their view totally change about me. Instead of think of me as a Person, I become a "Super Religious Freak". Instead of calling me by my name, they call me Mormon Boy. Its kinda sad.

but see, here's the deal, mormon boy.
I consider you stupid for following something a bunch of guys almost two thousand years ago wrote just because you think you have to. This might seem harsh, but it's very real.
You can consider me stupid for not following the teachings and "refusing to see the light" or some such humbug, and it's your right to do so. But the bottom line is we would not get along, based solely on our beliefs. Other than that, you might be a swell guy that is just like me, has the same interests as me and we might've gotten along great if circumstances werent what they are.

Basically I distance myself from true believers in the same way I would someone that pounds nails through his genitals and believes Norway invented oil.

Again, the comparison might seem very harsh, but that's just how stupid I think anyone that denies the teachings of Darwin outright and can honestly look pure evidence of evolution in the face and say "it's fake" without flinching and so on.

It's like the people that deny the holocaust ever happened. Exactly the same.

I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is, and that's how many feel. That's my explanation to why you get pushed away and called Mormon boy despite being a great guy.

 

[Mycernius]

Feeling a bit aggresive Twistedmac san. I do agree with your post on about following saying by dead guys. What you might also take into consideration is that the founders of the original faith that Christainty and Islam are based on is Jewish. You can't avoid the fact that teachers/prophets mentioned in the old testament are Jewish, and under strict Chritain beliefs cannot gain entry into heaven, because they have not heard the teachings of Jesus. Dante actually had a way around this. When Jesus passed through Hell he took the great men from the Old Testament with him. Any other heathens that were seen as worthy, but unable to enter heaven because they did not know of Jesus, lived in a great city in Limbo ie: Julius Caeser, Virgil.
The actual laws passed in the Old testament, that Christain, Jews and Muslim adher to (in various forms), found in Exodus, are only just over 3000 years old themselves. It is mentioned that the Hebrews came out of the land of Rameses and this can give you a rough date of when they left because of the pharohs name. So Judaism as we know it is only 500 or so years older than Buddhism. So were the poeple before the laws all heathens and went straight to hell?

 

[Buntaro]

tristasusen,

You said,

"That may have been annoying cause you were riding the subway. But it wasnt wrong."

--> People who say things like this move me away from Christianity, not toward it.

 

[NagoyaIan]

That was a pretty stupid post by Clawn.

NagoyaIan, That may have been annoying cause you were riding the subway. But it wasnt wrong. I dont believe they accused you of going to hell, Missionaries are taught not to do that. and If one specific missionary does that, they arent suppose to and they will get punished, because their partner will tell.

Also missionaries dont just rides bike going from door to door. Missionaries in Japan, go and clean the beaches and parks. The ones by my house helped build a community center.

BTW NagoyaIan, Your photos are awesome!!

Sorry to disagree, but trying to convert me when I am just going about my daily business is wrong, if you ask me. Like I said, if I want to find a mormon church, I can do it all by myself, thanks. And altough they never had a chance to mention hell, the basic premise of Christianity etc is 'worship our God or you ARE going to hell', is it not? Which is why they want to convert you in the first place, to save your soul.


Thanks for the complement! Hazukashi!

 

[tristasusen]

TwistedMac, Thanks for calling me Mormon Boy, I dont know if you were joking or not but that doesnt give you the right to call me that. I dont go around calling you a Swedish Fish or anything else that would offend you.
You shout that Im stupid and that Im wrong, but what about if your stupid and your wrong. I did nothing to offend you and you go and judge me just because Im a mormon. Well guess what? I have friends who dont believe in God and I have friends who are Islamic and I have Jewish friends, I have friends who are Buddist and we all get along well. Its people like you in the world that make everyone hate each other. Its people like you that start Genocides because their too stupid to look past their own thick skull. I dont go around judging people and saying their beliefs are stupid and I suggest you dont either.

Buntaro, Who knows? Maybe later in Life I may not be a Christian anymore, Thats because I have the free will to choose what I want to do. Even though I dont feel like Ill ever leave Christianty, I know I have the choice to, If I want to.

 

[TwistedMac]

I don't scream. I type.

With the "Mormon boy" I was stating a point. You are free to call me swedish fish or whatever else you can think of.

We all choose our friends on our own preferences, do we not?
If you can honestly tell me that you have never disliked a single person, then I'll retract everything I have said, for then you are a saint and in yourself is proof of god.
But then again the post you just made shows you dislike me.

Anyway, back on topic. We all choose our friends on our own preferences. For whatever reason you choose to dislike someone, there are people you do not wish to socialize with.
A very big pebble in my shoe is religion. I simply can't stand it.
Don't get me wrong. it's not like I'm a nazi about it. if someone says "I dunno, I'm christian... I guess.. I believe there's a god I guess" I can deal with that. but die hard religious people I can not deal with.

I choose not to socialize with these people because we cannot get along. Point proven here.

I don't judge you. I am on no higher authority to do so.

The fact that I dislike über religious people is hardly going to make everyone hate eachother, and I'm not about to start practicing genocide either.

I dont go around judging people and saying their beliefs are stupid and I suggest you dont either.

Now careful what you say. I just spilled the entire juice on my beliefs and for that you told me

Its people like you that start Genocides because their too stupid to look past their own thick skull.

so according to your own definition of judging people, you did just judge me and say my beliefs were stupid.

As far as I'm concerned, that's just fine with me. people have different opinions and I don't think anyone should start crying just because someone else voices an opinion radically different to ones own. But you can't go around claiming to turn the other cheek when you don't.

 

[tristasusen]

I really got angry when you called me mormon boy. I dont know you and once again you dont have the right to call me that.

and yes, I do dislike some people. I never really said anything in my post about me never disliking anyone. I never said I was a saint. I didnt even bring anything religious; All I said was that you should respect other people beliefs and religions.

What I also said was that I can get along with anyone just fine. I dont hate someone because of their religion like you do. Im not gonna stop myself from talking and creating a relationship with others just because they arent mormons/christians. If you cant see futher past my religion, and if you cant see all the good things that make me who I am, then I dont need to be around you. Oh, and If you didnt say all that crap you said before, Im pretty sure we would get along. I love Darwin Theory of Evolution and I love Dinosaurs. Because of your stupid rule of distancing yourself from people who believe in a religion, I believe you're missing out on a very big part of your life.

BTW, what you did back their was very hurtful, because you didnt even talk about what the thread was about. You launched an assult towards me.

 

[Buntaro]

tristasusen,

If someone is really bugging you, put them on your Ignore list. My Ignore list grows day by day. That way you do not have to wade through their negativity in order to get to the interesting posts.

You said,

"Maybe later in Life I may not be a Christian anymore, Thats because I have the free will to choose what I want to do."

--> That is why I enjoy my belief system more than that of a missionary's. My belief system says that all religions are valuable, and that all religions lead us to the same goal. I respect your religion, even though it is not my religion. I encourage you to stick with it, even though it is different than my religion.

Missionaries are absolutely 100% opposed to such an idea. They say it is Christianity or nothing. I do not.

 

[tristasusen]

I didnt even know they had this ignore list thing. Ill make sure to use it.

 

[TwistedMac]

I'm just saying. people have different reasons they dislike people. There may be some people that you dislike outright as soon as you have talked to them once that I will become best friends with because they match my persona.

Religious people are what I dislike.

I dont hate someone because of their religion like you do.

no, you hate people for other reasons. I fail to see why I'm so much worse than everyone else just because I dislike super religious people.

 

[Mycernius]

Swedish fish, interesting insult. Maybe you could change to that.
I think people are getting a little excited about this. Religious discussion does this. As for insults you should just let them slide by, or take a humourous view on it. Getting wound up about it will lead to negativity, hate and intolerances, and this is how genocides start.

 

[Mycernius]

I've just realised that sounded a bit like Yoda.
Beware the dark side, strong it is.
Let's all become Jedi's and screw up cenus forms

 

[TheKansaiKid]

I'm new here but

it seems to me that this thread brings out the worst in people. You could choose to look at the missionaries as misguided kids trying to share something that they value with you. Granted they can be an inconvenience but on the grand scale of inconveniences they are pretty minor. Instead many members of this little online community find them to be an affront to their very existence. My advice is get over yourself. Say not interested, no thanks as many times as is necessary to excuse yourself politely.
While on line nonemotionally without demeaning them (or their grammar) say "I respectfully disagree and here is my oppinion..." If you learn simple etiquette everyones day goes a bit smoother.

Just my oppinion

I could be wrong

 

[Pararousia]

Mmmm...where to begin....how about definitions? Just about everyone in the thread assumed missionaries to be Christian, as opposed to missionaries from other religions or philosophies. Big topic there, but I'll keep going with this one first. Then I noticed the responses breaking down the alleged Christian missionaries into Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and lumping the others in a big nameless pile. So let me begin by defining a few words from my own gridwork/perspective:
Religion -- The work of man to achieve God's favor.
Faith -- One's trust in God regardless of one's efforts to achieve God's favor.
(true Biblical)Christian -- One who trusts in the finished work of redemption of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and being made righteous before God without any "works" of their own.
(true Biblical) Missionary -- A person who engages full time in spreading the good news that mankind can obtain favor with God in this life and spend eternity with God after death.

And, yes, I know that over the centuries the "good news" has been twisted and turned into all sorts of other horrible messages and that some of the above named groups have other agendas. But, please, the Good News is a message of God's love and reconciliation to all people, including the Japanese.

Thank you for reading this.

 

[Mycernius]

A nice balanced post Pararousia. The problem seems to be with missionaries is that most people assume that they are a pain. Not everyone believes in the Christian God (I don't believe in one, full stop). Why do people insist on pushing their God at people? Just because someone believes that their God is love and everyone must be a part of it, doesn't make them right. Humans have free will and we can choose to do what we want with that free will. I don't want somebody with a vague understanding of the Bible trying to conert me. I have read the Bible, including the 14 books of the apocrapha, I am currently reading the Koran. I have an interest in mythology and can see where the Bible stories have originated from. As far as I am concerned the OT is a biased history of the Jewish people, with much magic and fear in it, and a book for good living in an harsh enviroment. The NT is more teachings of one man, that are then interpreted, mainly, by St. Paul in his letters. The book of revelations is your standard end of the world story. I do wish people could see beyond the Bible as a religious text and see it as a book like any other book. The same goes for the Koran, which, in essance, is a rehash of the Bible. I think the Sikhs have the right idea when it come to those who follow God. No matter what you call it is is still the same God.
BTW I voted for the third chioce on the poll

My Grandfather said always avoid talking about religion and politics, but wouldn't life be boring without it.

 

[Pararousia]

Free Will

Thanks Mycernius! You said,

Why do people insist on pushing their God at people? Just because someone believes that their God is love and everyone must be a part of it, doesn't make them right. Humans have free will and we can choose to do what we want with that free will.

Don't we live in an age of advertising? Can we go 30 seconds without seeing an ad on the net, on TV, on a billboard...somewhere...pushing something? I don't hear too many people calling up the car dealers and telling them they're sick of their ads. Truth is, the only reason why people feel that way is because it IS about God, and not a shiny new car or cool pair of jeans. Why is it people get uptight when the subject of God comes up then?

I believe it is because down deep, whether people want to admit it or not, individuals know that they need God in their lives but they're unwilling to come to God on God's terms. Just as you said, we have free will. It is a wonderful thing that God gave us too. He could have made us worship Him, but He didn't. He allows us to choose to come to Him.

 

[Buntaro]

This thread seems to have veered from the original topic, that of the acceptability or unacceptability of missionaries. As a matter of fact, I help people learn how to defend themselves against missionaries. Unfortunately, it is a sad business, but it is something that must be done.

 

[Mycernius]

Thanks Mycernius! You said,

Don't we live in an age of advertising? Can we go 30 seconds without seeing an ad on the net, on TV, on a billboard...somewhere...pushing something? I don't hear too many people calling up the car dealers and telling them they're sick of their ads. Truth is, the only reason why people feel that way is because it IS about God, and not a shiny new car or cool pair of jeans. Why is it people get uptight when the subject of God comes up then?

I can see where you are coming from with this. The fact is you can switch off adverts on your TV, skip them in magazines and just ignore billboards. Your average car salesman doesn't come to your house and tries to sell you his cars. The problem with missionaries is that activitly seek out people to convert. If they come to your house and say you are a different faith or an atheist they will then try to convert you. Your Ford dealer doesn't come to your house to try and convert you from your VW. Other missionaries try sneaky ways to get you interested. For example, the other day I was in Birmingham. A young lady comes up to me asking if i suffered from stress. I said not much, but she asked if I could spare some time for a stress test. Fine and I went with her, expecting some promotional campaign for a health spa (freebie scented). I turned out she was a Scientologist. After pointing a few things that I find wrong about her faith, L Ron Hubbard being the biggest one, we aprted on fairly good terms. Either that or I scared the hell out of her (Never did get my stress test. Oh hum). Was that right of her to fool me into trying to convert me. I think not, but that is what some religious people do.

I believe it is because down deep, whether people want to admit it or not, individuals know that they need God in their lives but they're unwilling to come to God on God's terms. Just as you said, we have free will. It is a wonderful thing that God gave us too. He could have made us worship Him, but He didn't. He allows us to choose to come to Him.

I gather your are a Christian yourself judging from this statement. This is one of the problems I find with religion, especially Judaism, Christianity and Islam. People think that you really need God. Believe me I do not. There are a lot of people who think the same thing. My life is happy. I do not need a Diety of any kind to worship. You said God gaves us free will. What kind of free will? Yes, you can choose to turn away from God, but if you do you'll be punished, after all what is Hell. That is not free will, it is using fear. It is a bit like a dictator saying you can live another way, but if you do you'll get shot. Live my way and you'll be treated well. It is not free will.
Getting back to the original subject of missionaries in Japan, is it right for a member of any religious group to say to another 'You are wrong. My way is right'. The Japanese religion has been going along quite nicely for thousands of years. They are happy with it and their ancestors were happy with it. For all you know their way could be right and your way could be wrong. Is it proper for any religious group to decided that theirs is right and everyone else is wrong. That way lies genocide.
I do respect your belief in God and I know I cannot stop you from disbeliving. That's fine with me, but people shouldn't push their faith on other people, and that is what missionaries do when it comes to the bones of it.

 

[Mycernius]

This thread seems to have veered from the original topic, that of the acceptability or unacceptability of missionaries. As a matter of fact, I help people learn how to defend themselves against missionaries. Unfortunately, it is a sad business, but it is something that must be done.

:sorry: Sumimasen Buntaro san. I have tried to bring it back, but religion can be such a deep and fractious topic

 

[Arrowyn]

I think Mycernius is spot-on. Missionary activity is unpleasant and disruptive to both individual people and potentially to entire countries.

Japan is a successful first-world nation with a long history and a very strong sense-of-self. They've borrowed a lot of things from a lot of different places, but they don't let these borrowed things overrun their culture: they take what they like, toss what they don't, and change things to suit themselves. Christianity is no different: They have Santa Claus at Christmas and the romantic bride at the chapel, but they left off the "You'll Burn In Hell!" rant and the "Worship no Gods but Me" command. They're not going to ignore their ancestors and turn away from Buddhism and Shinto just because some carpetbagger tells them that they should!

I know that I'm speaking in broad generalizations, and that some Japanese have indeed converted, but as a whole the country seems to be inoculated against this activity. Still, I think the missionaries should just pack up and leave. If they want to know about your religion, they'll google you!

There is nothing wrong with individual people of whatever country being curious, and converting to a new religion if they like it better than their old one. The harm lies in missionaries blanketing a country, and convincing the locals that their old ways are "of the Devil", and that the missionary is here to bring them "salvation". Where the missionaries are successful the old religion dies, and with it goes much of that country's original culture.

 

[Buntaro]

Mycernius,

Don't touch my moustache (dou itashimashite). You are right, it is fractious topic. But the main idea of this thread is a good idea. I always love to discuss ideas on how to handle the missionaries when they come to our door.

I have come up with this: "I see that you are happy with your Christian faith, I am happy for you, that you have found your happiness. However, Christianity does not work for me."

I think that is a good balance of respect and assertiveness. I feel that saying, "No thank you," is not enough.

 

[Arrowyn]

Your response is a good one, Buntaro - noncombative, yet nonapologetic. Do the missionaries respect your boundaries, and leave it at that?

At first, when they'd come to my door, I would engage in debate with them, asking them questions, telling them exactly what I thought of their attitude towards science, and towards the position of women within their religion. I wanted them to see my side of things.

Nowadays, I've grown tired of that. I realise that we will never convince one another of the validity of our arguments. I merely say, "no thanks, I'm happy as is" if they come to my door. If I know they're knocking, I don't even answer the door. If they approach me as I'm walking from the train station, and they're pushy enough to walk with me to work, I see the whole experience through the eyes of an anthropologist. I steer the conversation toward their experience of their religion - what denomination are they? How do they worship, guitars in sunday school or not? And so on. It's interesting stuff, and if I'm good enough, I get to work before they have the chance to elaborate on how much I need to be "saved".