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Japan workforce warning

Tokis-Phoenix

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"Japan's working population will shrink by more than a third by 2050, according to an annual government report.

The country currently has 66m people in work, but officials say the figure will slump to 42m in coming decades.

The report blames the fall on declining birth rates and an ageing population, but it also highlights a failure to get women and elderly people into work.

The document says allowances and benefits should be improved to make it easier for workers to raise children";

Full story;

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Japan publishes workforce warning


IMHO, to be honest if people are going to have to work more in Japan in the future i think they'll want children even less than they currently do. More needs to be done to make raising children easier and more affordable to encourage couples in Japan to make the decision to have kids.
The traditional family unit has broken down in Japan, more and more people are living on their own away from families and leading more secluded lives. If couples are to have kids then more support needs to given to whole families rather than just the potential parents. I think more than anything though, something needs to be done about creating larger and more affordable housing- Tokyo has insanely expensive property prices, and i'm sure house prices probably stand as a barrier towards couples who want kids.

From an economy loss point of view though, even if Japanese people started having loads of kids right now, they would still face issues in the workforce for a while. To be honest i think robots could start to help fill the human gaps as a workforce as technology improves.
 
Japan will have intelligent robots to do work of millions,unlike US exploits cheap human third-worlder immigrant population.In this case,Japanese are wiser not to allow foreign population drastically alter its country's demographics.

TOKYO (Reuters) - Robots could fill the jobs of 3.5 million people in graying Japan by 2025, a thinktank says, helping to avert worker shortages as the country's population shrinks.

Robots seen doing work of 3.5 million in Japan
 
Yeah i definitely think that robots are part of the way to go with this issue, thats for sure . But it will be a very long time until the technology becomes better, more available and cheaper, so the impact of such robots will probably not be seen for a very long time to come. Robots are used very often in factories however they still need a human to help guide and control them and they often look nothing like the humanoid shape robots.
 
I think that it is too late to think in increasing natality as a lone solution to the problem. Right now Japan will need either to increase their working force by having more women or elderly people working (increase child support, kinder gardens and increasing the age of reform). Or alternatively increase immigration by providing more conditions to foreigners (such as a institutionalized school to learn Japanese) and easier access to housing.

Although I think that lack of natality is a worldwide problem. The very same thing is happening all over Europe. Luckily we've enough immigrants to fight that problem. (Although nationalists would kill me if they heard me) Of course having immigrants always bring more problems such as lack of integration or increasing criminality, but nothing is perfect.
 
Robots are used very often in factories however they still need a human to help guide and control them and they often look nothing like the humanoid shape robots.


Then train local labor force the proper skills to perform these technical jobs with decent pay not continue to makie an excuse of forever needing a cheap immigrant population.
 
Yeah i agree Hideway that encouraging immigrants into the country would be the most simple solution to the problem, and i wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese took this upon themselves and we started seeing easier access for immigrants into the country etc.
 


You say that like it's a good thing...robots taking over the ordinary working persons jobs, I don't see how we (the middle class) benefit from that in any way. In fact, if robots replace humans in the workforce it I believe it will mean an almost complete breakdown of the lower class and seriously harm the middle class....you will have an even greater divide of the 'haves' and 'have nots' than there already is. People need jobs...not robots. It's as simple as that.

But just think about what you just said and you will realize how ridiculous it sounds. It's ok for robots to replace humans in the workforce just so long as long as Japan can remain 100% Japanese? Really?
 


I don't think robots replacing a workforce completely would be a good thing. But for example robots could help the elderly- many people have to look after their loved ones when their loved ones become elderly, many people cannot cope with this when it becomes a full time 24/7 task, and many such family helpers can end up suffering from stress and depression. On the one hand, they don't want to send their parents to an old people's home, but on the other hand they may not have the time or money to look after their elderly parents.
Robots could be programed as helpers to help such elderly people, both on the practical side of caring, but perhaps also as a way of offering comfort and companionship too. With more and more people in Japan growing old and lonely and less and less trustworthy young people to look after them in their old age, I think such robots could be a really good way forward in such a sense .
An old person might not want some immigrant stranger in their home helping them out, however if the old person bought themselves a helper robot, this could be a much better option in such a situation. You could have cleaner robots, cooking robots, carrying robots, company robots etc, it could be a really good thing (especially for those elderly people who have no family left to care for them and don't want to go into a care home or have some stranger carer for them) .
 
IMHO, to be honest if people are going to have to work more in Japan in the future
Did you actually read the article? That's not what it says. With the population shrinking is size, there won't be enough Japanese to do the work. They won't work longer hours, as you seemed to imply above.

Well, the problem is staring Japan in the face right now, and they are actually doing the complete opposite. Do you live in Japan? I have, for the past 10 years.
 
The middle class is shrinking, it will soon be those who have and those who don't.

This problem is being experienced by a lot of markets in the West as well, as the babyboomers prepare to retire. Offices and businesses are already having to pave the way for a new generation of workers who are not their parents and do not have their parents values.

I think the idea that robots could replace certain workers is an interesting one. It may be disturbing and in a sense 'cold', (non-human) but it's extremely Japanese in so many ways. For one, mainstream culture and the mainstream psyche has already been prepped for such a thing via the numerous anime and manga that integrate human and robotic interaction. Secondly it would permit the Japanese to keep things domestic and culturally oriented towards Japan vs. having to pave the way for a large influx of immigrants, although this cannot be completely avoided. It would remove some of the pressure though. Lastly it would make economic sense because they could start exporting these things to other nations which are experiencing the same problems.
 
Robots aren't a solution to the problem. The problem is the fact that the Japanese aren't having kids, robots might be able to pick up the slack from a shrinking population but it would be like putting a band aid on a bullet wound, so to speak, robots aren't going to make people start having babies.

And lets say the Japanese population does start having more kids after the robot introduction, well, thats millions of Japanese workers out of a job because robots have taken their jobs.


I don't exactly view robots as 'companion' material. The idea that someone would rather leave their elderly parents alone with only a mechanical machine for 'company' and support rather than having an immigrant worker in their home blows my mind. Robots are cold steel and wires, you can program them ,cover them in silicone and give them fake pretty eyes but at the end of the day they are still machines.
And this isn't just cooking or cleaning that the article was talking about but child care to.

Someone out there is seriously contemplating the idea of putting a robot (a machine, I cannot stress this enough) in charge of caring for the physical and mental wellbeing of children. What's next, the robot mother? I don't mean to be dramatic but....are the Japanese crazy?
 
Human and robotic/nanotechnology integration is inevitable. The feeling-out process has to start somewhere. I wouldn't leave someone who's vulnerable in the care of a robot, however, i.e. a child, elderly person etc. But a helper robot can't hurt in some cases; it could do simple things like vaccum, lift heavy things, rake leaves, etc. You could even have it integrate with on-board car navigation and have it park your car for you or eventually drive you places. The possibilities are endless really.

If there are fewer Japanese then no ones taking jobs away from anyone, they're just filling vacancies that are otherwise impossible to fill. If no one wants to be a sanitation worker because it either doesn't pay well enough or they're too good for it, heck, put a robot there, it won't complain.
 
You robot lovers are thinking too narrowly. Yes, certain very menial jobs can/could be done by robots. But more than the middle class is shrinking. Middle class and youth. What OTHER jobs are out there? Just a few thousand.

businessmen
accountants
hamburger flippers
doctors (already in a shortage)
nurses (same as doctors)
fire fighters
bartenders
police officers
judges
teachers
secretaries
store clerks
lawyers
barbers/stylists
musicians
writers
bankers
cooks/chefs
mechanics
carpenters
engineers
scientists
pro athletes
etc.


Yeah, sure. Robots.
 
Did you actually read the article? That's not what it says. With the population shrinking is size, there won't be enough Japanese to do the work. They won't work longer hours, as you seemed to imply above.


I did read the article but it looks like you didn't;

"This year the report expresses concern that those in employment in the middle of the century will have to work harder and longer, as there will be fewer of them."

So next time before you make comments like that, make sure you aren't making them hypocritically .


Yeah i totally agree with you BakaKanadajin
 
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Phoenix,
The fact is, with 1/3 of the work force gone by mid-century (if figures are accurate), it will be totally unrealistic to have any business going at all. The article also says, "One out of every 10 Japanese employees works more than 60 hours a week." That is a total crock! Far more work that long or longer! (well, they are in the offices that long, anyway. The work itself is so inefficient that they often feel the need.) You can't survive with longer hours than those, and that's what it is going to take UNLESS Japan wises up and allows more (FAR more) immigrants in.

Work longer. Yeah, right. Let's see some real numbers. The high school teachers where I worked put in at LEAST 70 hours per week, and that doesn't include the fact that they were there during summer and winter "breaks".

Overtime (and unpaid at that) is commonplace here, often unaccounted for in government statistics, and death due to overwork (karoshi) is recognized only in Japan and Korea. Japan is NOT going to survive literally (!) unless it gets some bodies in here.

A few years ago, the UN estimated that by 2050 Japan would have about 104 million people, but it rethought those figures more recently, and it produced what you saw in that article (something closer to 89-90 million). Think about it. That means despite the UN's earlier report, Japan not only did zilch to improve its situation, the situation got worse! Japan is VERY slow to respond. With the current figures, by 2050 the ratio of work force to elderly people would be 1.7 to 1. (It's somewhere around double that now.) So, you would have almost the same amount of people on retirement plans (if they even exist by then) as would be working (and retiring quickly themselves) with NO ONE to pick up the slack. Start increasing the babies now and you still have a gap to fill before the population catches up. Since the baby-making trend in Japan is not likely to fill this need very well, increased immigration is needed.

Is this happening? No.
Is Japan helping to make this happen? No. If you live here, you realize that.

I'm not hypocritical, Phoenix. I'm realistic. I just seem to have read a little more than one teeny BBC article and have been living smack in the middle of the situation for a decade.

Robots are cool and very nice. Believe me, I know. Over 20 years ago (that's before you were born) I saw them up close delivering mail in large U.S. pharmaceutical companies (which means places that have deep pockets of money). TWENTY YEARS AGO! How much technology has come into play since then to show us that such things are on the rise? Look around. Darned little. Japan hires its elderly as PT workers in such positions as janitors (to use your example). With millions of pensions records lost here (I presume you know what I am talking about), the elderly can't afford to sit back and try living on their retirement fund. It won't be there, so they will have to try working as long as they can. But it's the full-timers (the decreasing number of them, that is) who pay for the retirement and pension system, but that is going to be such a hardship for the 1.7 ratio that it will have to undergo a serious major revamping if Japan can manage to wake up.

Look at the picture here of the robot demonstrated in the 1939 World's Fair. Heck, even the robot dog in the picture has only been recreated in Japan in the last few years! Pretty slow. http://www.allthingsmike.com/CulturalBlender/robots1.htm
Read this 2006 report from a robot manufacturer. Quote: "Reporter: But while these robots have been ready to deploy for about a year, so far only one customer has signed a contract. If such a great system, why haven't you sold more?

Maker: It's true. This industry, classically, it's kind of a, it's a kind of a slow-moving industry." http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/061106e/ And, we're talking about a SIMPLE robot here that supposedly will increase worker productivity up to 200%!

Japan sleeps. Japan gets older by the minute. It also gets smaller. Go ahead and put a few cute, nifty robots into place sweeping floors. There will be nobody to run the business on those floors.
 


I was pointing out that your accusation was hypocritical i.e. you said the article did not say people will work longer hours and that i hadn't read the article properly- when in actual reality i had read the article but you hadn't as you had failed to see that the article does state say people will have to work longer.
You might have read more than one "teeny BBC article" but it still seems that you failed to read the teeny article properly. Its not your opinions on the subject that i have issue with, simply that you accused me of something which was not true.

You sound stressed, just chill .

Japan sleeps. Japan gets older by the minute. It also gets smaller. Go ahead and put a few cute, nifty robots into place sweeping floors. There will be nobody to run the business on those floors.

Ah i think you over-exaggerate the doom and gloom of the situation. I can't personally say how good Japan is at getting its act in gear in general on things as i have not lived long enough to really say for sure on this, however there are many solutions to the problem at hand- the main two being increased immigration and/or reliance on robot technology.
No one is kidding themselves though that the elderly people and pension problems in Japanese society are not highly important;

"The government is gradually raising the age at which pensions are paid - by 2030, everyone will have to wait until 65 - and there appears to be no shortage of eager older workers.

According to a government survey, a substantial majority of Japanese men believe that the retirement age should be 65 or higher. In 2005, 30% of people over the age of 60 were working, a separate survey showed.

In central Tokyo, 68-year-old Mr Yamada works in a car park. "It's better to work," he says. "As long as I have my health, I'll continue to work - it's more interesting."

"The best possible way is a combination of approaches - increasing the birth rate, trying to make the health care sector more efficient.

"One important thing is to move quickly. We expect a gradual increase in social security costs, so if we raise tax burdens right now, we will succeed in keeping the future burden ratio relatively low. If we delay, the problem will get worse."

"Everyone I know is concerned about the future, about pensions, taxes and health costs," said one young businessman in Tokyo. "The government takes money every month, but people worry that there will be no return."

And this sense of financial insecurity among young people is yet another problem in itself - because it is part of the reason that many couples are choosing not to have the children that Japan so desperately needs.";

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | How to fund Japan's ageing society


What issue/s do you have with robot workers to help fill jobs exactly?
 
It's like Glenski said, robots have been around for years and while they are good for doing jobs that maybe be dangerous to humans or saving lives, say, while in the military the general population doesn't want robots taking the place of people.

I know Bakakanadjin said that the Japanese have been prepping for this robot-human integration for awhile but the fantasy and the reality are two separate things. The Japanese have also been 'prepping' for giant humanoid piloted robots fighting space battles and destroying Tokyo every two seconds.

The fact is the workforce needs people to run, robots can only take them so far before they need to start having babies otherwise their population will simply fade away. Immigration would bring new blood to their workforce, stimulate their economy and ease up on the workload so they could possibly start having kids again but the Japanese don't want to see this. The fact that they would rather implement widespread robot use rather than even consider immigration as a solution is, well, crazy.
Am I the only one that thinks this 'racial purity' idea had been taken to far, and there are so many people out there defending this mentality and trying to be sympathetic despite the fact that Japan itself is slowly collapsing under the weight of it's own swollen ego.
 
I was walking home one night and came across one of these


I remember thinking to myself "Uh oh, someone is out of a job."

They are getting even more life-like, and are only growing in numbers!!!


But in all seriousness, the waning population is a big problem for Japan, and it seems that no one is willing to admit that the only way to keep things going is to ease up on immigration, cause the Japanese "baby-making machines" just aren't doing their jobs! If only they had a robot for that...
 

Well i personally can't say how difficult it is to immigrate to Japan because i have never tried it yet. But i do think that increasing immigration into Japan is part of the solution to the countries declining population.

But i think its about respect and culture too- over here in England people are unhappy that our culture seems to be getting wiped out by all this immigration as our culture's end up becoming one giant mono indistinct politically correct culture where no one is allowed to be culturally different in case they accidentally offend another culture etc.

Japanese culture is very complicated, in-depth and sophisticated- in the scenario where Japan let in loads of immigrants, such immigrants are not likely to understand much about Japanese culture (and the Japanese probably won't understand much about the new cultures immigrating into their country either) as such immigrants are likely to only be in the country for the work and only have a bit of basic Japanese to get them by in the country. Such situations often end up with cultural tensions, and these can become racist when communities do not understand each other. Immigrants will prefer to stay in area's where there are lots of other immigrants, and these places can turn into towns almost of completely non-natives- the natives will feel threatened by these immigrant groups large numbers, they won't want to go to such places, they won't understand the people and vice versa, there will be a certain degree of mistrust on each side, chances of everyone getting to know/understand/respect each other become ever slimmer etc.

These situations are becoming ever more common all over the world in these uncertain days. I know the Japanese have superiority issues, but to be honest i think a lot of countries/places do- we only tend to notice them though when we ourselves go abroad and all of a sudden we are at the brunt of such issues. I've known so many people's and races that feel superior or whatever over others, i think that every country is like this to be honest and so i don't think Japanese is any worse than anywhere else. American's feel superior over the Mexicans, the black people of Zimbabwe feel superior over the white people of Zimbabwe, the white English feel superior and fearful over the Muslims while the Kurds feel superior over the white Christians and the White Australians feel superior over the Aborigine's and vice versa etc.
Superiority is everywhere in the world in every race and every country, and such things are never more obvious between giants like China and Japan, or Japan and Korea etc.

IMHO, the only way to get over these issues of immigration on both sides, is for the country accepting the immigrants into its lands, to acclimatise both sides to each other by educating both sides. Younger generations need to be educated in schools far more about other cultures, because now days we are encountering people from completely different cultures more and more, and if we are to prevent ignorance turning into distrust, hatred or fear, then we need to educate our own kind more etc.

Having not been to school in Japan, i cannot say how much focus or well-balanced information there is in Japanese school text books about other cultures, countries, races and religions, however (although i could be wrong), i have heard that Japanese are generally not that well informed at school about such things. If Japan really does have a superiority problem, then this could be part of it, and the only way to solve the problem is to change what is taught to the generations of Japanese.
There have been plenty of cases in the dusty pages of history in the past in other countries when immigration has not worked out well because of large cultural differences and gaps in knowledge about each other etc. If Japan is really going to go forward with increased immigration, then cultural/religious/racial awareness etc is a must if everyone is going to happily and productively coexist together in Japan's small lands.
 
You sound stressed, just chill
Not stressed. Ticked off.

Ah i think you over-exaggerate the doom and gloom of the situation. I can't personally say how good Japan is at getting its act in gear in general on things
It's not me who is saying these things. It's experts in the field, too. I've lived here for half of your lifetime (and actually came here for the first time before you were born), so you're going to have to trust a veteran who knows the score.

What issue/s do you have with robot workers to help fill jobs exactly?
Wasn't that clear enough? Look at the list of jobs I provided. Incomplete, yet very vital positions. How many of them do you think can be filled by robots? Even the police use them only for certain dangerous operations, but you can't replace humans in most job situations for these occupations. I'm not saying robots are useless. That would be a ludicrous statement. Obviously, they are used quite well in places like manufacturing and the automotive industry, but they are not the be-all, end-all of workers. Experts say that the slowness of the advancement and use of robot technology is a chief hindrance in finding replacement work to places like Japan. Don't count on it filling that 1/3 gap in the work force. It's not just assembly lines that will be empty. (Besides, Japan is notorious for hiring its own migrant workers legally and illegally from nearby countries to do the dirty or dangerous or unwanted jobs. Not enough though for the other positions I've listed.)

At least your numbers aren't declining. BTW, culture evolves. Don't ever expect it to remain constant.

I know the Japanese have superiority issues, but to be honest i think a lot of countries/places do
Stay on topic, please. This is about Japan's declining population, not about how the USA feels superior to other countries. Japan's feelings of superiority could be its undoing.

the only way to solve the problem is to change what is taught to the generations of Japanese.
Yes, but it isn't going to happen in the next 40 years. Hence, my (and others') pleas for increased immigration.


nice gaijin,
Cute picture. Have seen those a lot here. If I may, you said "someone is out of a job". Uh, no. Perhaps 3 or 4 people are! That's how many it seems to take to do such a thing as far as I've seen!
 
Not stressed. Ticked off.

Well i hope you don't direct your negative personal feelings towards me then- i achieved a lot today, i want to maintain my smile while i can .

It's not me who is saying these things. It's experts in the field, too. I've lived here for half of your lifetime (and actually came here for the first time before you were born), so you're going to have to trust a veteran who knows the score.

So you're experienced, and you have a go at me for not being as experienced as you in this subject- is that it??

You initially said "Did you actually read the article? That's not what it says." and then i pointed out to that it did say what you denied. Its your mistake, not mine, so stop having a go at me about it like it was my mistake not to read the article properly.
Now you seem to be saying that its my fault that i even took to any of the info in the article at all. I'm only going the info that i've seen so far, and because i only started paying interest in this issue recently, i have not got that far in my research yet- does that make my opinions wrong alone?


And i never said nor counted on robots filling the 1/3 gap in the workforce.
Neither did i argue against increased immigration, i quote myself- "I don't think robots replacing a workforce completely would be a good thing" and "encouraging immigrants into the country would be the most simple solution to the problem" etc. Are you actually reading my posts??

At least your numbers aren't declining. BTW, culture evolves. Don't ever expect it to remain constant.

Our numbers aren't declining because we've got loads of immigrants and chavs on benefits in the country- but the middle working classes are having less kids and having them later in life. Also i am not naive enough to expect culture to remain constant and i do not have anything against with the evolution of culture in a positive sense.
But there's a big difference between native culture being eradicated, and native culture flourishing and evolving. For example last year people talked about changing "Christmas" to "seasons greetings" as so not offend people in the country of non-Christian religion/background (primarily all the islamic immigrants we've been getting recently etc)- i mean, what, that isn't culture evolving for the better! Thats culture being eradicated for the sake of political correctness- and thats what i am getting at. Having seen what has happened in my own country, I can't entirely blame the Japanese for being wary about letting in loads of immigrants in the sense of because of what might happen to their culture

Stay on topic, please. This is about Japan's declining population, not about how the USA feels superior to other countries. Japan's feelings of superiority could be its undoing.

I am keeping on topic- the USA bit was a tiny part of a large point i was making, which was not about the USA in the big picture, but rather the wider picture of how every country/culture/race/religion feels some superiority over over etc, Japan included. And the reason why this is relevant is because it is relevant to the subject of immigration, which is a big part of the picture in solving Japan's problems etc.

Yes, but it isn't going to happen in the next 40 years. Hence, my (and others') pleas for increased immigration.

Changing whats taught in the text books will be easier than convincing Japanese women to start having lots of babies- i am looking at this problem in the wider picture and what happens in the long term, i am not just looking at the quick fix solutions. If you look at what happens in the long term, increased immigration is not a be-all and end-all solution to Japan's declining population and the issues which cause it, are surrounding it, and are caused by it.

You talk though of pleas for increased immigration like i'm one of the people not calling for it- you've obviously not read my posts properly before you posted on this thread directing your opinions towards mine, because i have agreed with the idea of increased immigration as part of the solution to the declining population problem in Japan.
With the way you are currently writing your posts you seem like you are disagreeable with my opinions, however it is weird because the things which you are arguing for are things which i myself have already agreed upon or pointed out earlier in the thread. Is this just misinterpretation?? Please tell me because i am tired.
 

This has been true throughout every country in the world in almost every period of human history. There is always a fear of loss of culture, it is a groundless fear because culture doesn't just disappear because a new Chinatown was set up across the street. Take blacks and whites in America, they have been around each other, intermingling for hundred of years, interbreeding, learning each others ways and yet they still have two very separate, distinct cultures. Hundreds of years of interaction have done little to nothing to change that.

The difference between cultural superiority in countries like ours and countries like Japans is that we have all made strides to understand each other cultures and work out our differences, Japan has not and, as far as I can tell, is not even prepared to try, even with the looming workforce and population crisis's they face.

The problems you have named are some that every country with an immigrant population goes through regardless of age or societal structure. Japans only excuse is that they believe themselves to be more complex, more unique and more unable to handle cultural differences than every other modern culture on the planet, which is a lie.

Let's face facts, Japan has and is doing more to dilute and mess up their own culture and way of life than a whole hoarde of immigrants. Look at what separatism has got them, a shrinking, overworked population, family structure breaking down, cultural identity in question, rampant suicides, an unhealthy obsession with machines and technology, lack of any progress in gender equality, lack of educational advance, poor inter-cultural relations ect ect ect.
From my point of view I would take immigration over that any day.

EDIT: I totally agree with that political correctness becoming ridiculous, especially that bit about changing Christmas to Seasons Greetings. I don't see anyone else going out of their way not to offend us...but then again, I have seen absolutely no move to seriously implement this change. Even the mention of it sparked outrage and debate. Hell, the immigrants have even started telling us to lighten up.
That problem is of out own making...last I checked no immigrants were lobbying to change Christmas. You have to admit, we tend to imagine problems where none exist.
 

Hmm i would say that the culture that blacks have now days is largely modern and most of the culture that blacks had hundreds of years ago has been lost (quite forcibly too because the whites banned the practice of much of the blacks traditional culture in the past). Black people have a distinct culture now days, but i think that has mostly come about after hundreds of years of hardship, they have increasingly found their voice in white society and have part re-invented, invented and part re-found their old culture.
I certainly don't think there was much learning from the whites about the blacks up until relatively recently in history, and that only came about in itself because of changes in politics- until changes were made in politics, intermingling was pretty frowned upon, even as recently as the 50's and 60's black & white marriages were still pretty taboo for a lot of people.
So i certainly don't think that the strong culture of black people came about because of interbreeding and learning each others ways etc, rather i think that todays black culture came about because of an increasingly robust opposition to the inequality of how we treated them in the past.
During the times of the British empire, we had serious self-superiority over other cultures and countries etc.

Certainly now days there's a lot more intermingling and learning on both sides, but this is not entirely the case. While there is less racism on our part towards the blacks, many say that its increasing on the black side towards whites- and there are also certainly still many communities in America which are rather racist and closed towards learning about other cultures etc. But i shan't go too much into this for now as this issue really deserves another thread if its to be discussed about to any serious degree.



I think education has a very large part to play in all of this. What we learn when we are children and the environment which we are brought up in shapes the sort of person we become when we grow up to a very large degree.

Back in the Meiji period, the Japanese government convinced an entire young generation of Japanese to learn the Bushido way and worship their emporer as a god. This largely came about because of what was taught in the school text books- about a third of what was taught in the history/culture books was about the emporer and royalty of Japan alone, and only a very small percentage was devoted to the teaching young Japanese about the world outside of Japan etc.
This lead to a generation of Japanese wholeheartedly believing what they had been taught as children, and that what they were taught was important and correct, and this lead to a whole generation of Japanese obsessed with the superiority of their country and culture. And the military/government used this to their full advantage- during the war years, Japanese were taught that Chinese were practically sub-human/animals and that their culture, royalty and government was inferior etc. With this sort of mindset, it only paved the way for atrocities like the Massacre of Nanjing etc.

But my point is, is that the Japanese mind and general opinion is like clay that can be easily shaped by whatever cast it is set in. If the Japanese government could convince their people that the emperor was a living god, then i am sure that if its government is willing then it could teach its people about other cultures and the benefits of immigration, and so convince its people to welcome immigrants with open arms.

But for such changes to happen, the Japanese have to believe that such changes can happen. Its a vicious cycle- because the Japanese believe themselves to be more complex, more unique and more unable to handle cultural differences than every other modern culture on the planet, they actually make this true by believing it (so its not really a lie). But until they change these views towards the world outside of Japan, they will never be able to change.
Flooding the country with immigrants may help boost the population, but it won't change the Japanese mindset, and it could even worsen Japan's opinions of other cultures depending on how the general public receives the immigrants etc. Until the Japanese mindset changes, then increased immigration will not work as successfully as it could do in the country.



Japan is always improving in certain area's but un-improving in others. While the family unit is collapsing, was it ever that great in the first place anyway? While on the plus side, plenty of kids were being born in the olden days, families stood together as strong units, people married for life and invested greatly in their kids etc, there were a lot of bad sides to the old family unit as well. Arranged marriages were the norm in the past, many couple's were unhappy, the man would cheat on his wife but she had no power to stop him and if he got found out by others, she would have to bear a lot of the shame. The woman's purpose in life was to be a baby making machine, if she failed to have children then she failed as a women, she had to make everyone happy in the family yet as a housewife she had little power to change much etc if her elders didn't cooperate etc.

So yes, the family unit has broken down a lot in Japan, but its not an entirely bad thing- women are more empowered than ever in Japanese society, men and women have more power to choose who they want to be with, the elderly no longer control the family unit (for better or for worse).
Its pretty obvious that a lot of Japanese women do not want to have lots of kids, which is why the birthrate is falling. Perhaps the only thing that kept it high in the past was because of the pressures of the old family unit on the women to produce lots of children. Now birthrates are falling, this spells bad news in many area's of Japanese society, but is this change simply part of progress for women?
In troubled times, people have to contemplate what they are doing more. Japan is a stubborn and often rather closed country, perhaps this is the crisis it needs to make it change for the better.


Meh, you're probably right, but i also think it boils down a lot to that we try too hard to please, and end up making ourselves look like fools in the process when we use political correctness to try and please others etc.
 
Phoenix,
I can clearly see that you and I agree on many points here. No problem with that. My tone here is set by the others who think that robots are the best, easiest, most complete fix. Sorry if that got in the way of answering you. You DID ask what my opinion was about robots after I'd just listed a bunch of jobs that obviously couldn't be replaced by robots, so I took offense at that, thinking you disagreed. Pretty hard to know what people think on these forums sometimes when we only have the printed word to go by.

So you're experienced, and you have a go at me for not being as experienced as you in this subject- is that it??
Not really. You seem to be somewhat up on superficial aspects of the topic, and as far as I can tell, you've gotten most if not all of your information from books or the Net. Fair enough since you have not lived here, but please try to see my point of view, that of someone who has been living here immersed in the culture for a long time. A skimpy BBC article hardly skims the surface of the issues at hand. Perhaps you came here to get more info. Cool. Great! Ask away, and I'll be more than happy to tell you what I know. BTW, I agree with a lot of what you wrote in your first post.

On to Xmas greetings. Yeah, even in the US people are getting the "season's greetings" thing thrown at them, but that expression has already been around for decades. Is political correctness on that one issue too much to bear? I don't think so. May I ask a question, though, about what you wrote?
But there's a big difference between native culture being eradicated, and native culture flourishing and evolving.
Aside from a holiday expression, which I consider a minor part of a country's culture, what major loss of British culture seems to be taking place?

I can't entirely blame the Japanese for being wary about letting in loads of immigrants in the sense of because of what might happen to their culture
I think I can understand where you are coming from on this. However, Japan self-imposed 250 years of isolation on itself, opened its doors, and became a world leader. It has kept many facets of its culture that have produced negative reactions among the international community. Nobody is saying that Japan, or any country, should dissolve its own culture 100%, but Japan often doesn't budge an inch on certain things, and it needs to rethink that. With regard to the declining birth rate, yes, there are many ways to resolve the situation, but you must realize that it is a cultural thing for Japan to operate very slowly. Decisions are usually made in groups that take a long time to reach a consensus, if ever. This is a life-threatening decision to make, and based on my experiences here, the country is not moving fast enough.

Culture doesn't have to disintegrate, but the powers that be might not see it that way. They still often believe that a simple thing like teaching English shouldn't be introduced into the elementary school level because (they feel) it will hinder the learning of Japanese language. No basis for this, of course, but stubborn dinosauric culture getting in the way of progress.

I'm glad to hear you are not in favor of short-term fixes, but I don't know whether changing textbooks will be easier or more difficult. Are you aware of the problems with history books here?

If you look at what happens in the long term, increased immigration is not a be-all and end-all solution to Japan's declining population and the issues which cause it, are surrounding it, and are caused by it.
Of course it's not the sole solution, but it is the easiest one to make happen, IMO.

But, the government is not willing.

While the family unit is collapsing, was it ever that great in the first place anyway?
Some of your comments smack of Anglo-Saxon beliefs. Open your eyes, Phoenix. What you think is good or bad for family values in the UK may be different here, not right or wrong.
 
I've gotta go with my old sparring partner Glenski here on this one. From where it stands now, I think the Japanese do have a big labour shortage problem on their hands that's going to take some fancy problem solving. We agree that using robots for some jobs would work and that it's a concept greatly facilitated by Japanese pop-cultural acceptance of the compassionate toaster, but if the numbers Glenski quotes from the UN are accurate then there are far too many jobs to fill in this manner. Although limited by comparison, my experience living in Japan and seeing how my Japanese friends/family operate would seem to confirm that this is another one of these issues people will bow and exchange gifts over for quite some time but make little headway in solving because its so big.

The one saving grace I have to rely on as a fan of the Japanese way and traditional culture is that, when faced with crisis I think the Japanese desire to preserve itself and do things its own way usually prevails, despite that being a negative thing according to some. They've faced far worse than this historically speaking and always manage to surprise us with their innovation. What that may be this time around I do not know, and I acknowledge that this is an issue that doesn't immediately lend itself to good old fashioned がまん、since we're talking about a problem that's limited by 1) human gestation and development periods and 2) a society not pre-disposed to quick changes.

nice gaijin: I saw that guy while I was over there. That guy works more overtime than anyone I know. I tried to bring him a drink one particularly hot summers day but he wasn't interested.
 
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