Japan Bashing

[sl0thmachin3]

One should know what one talks about if ever one wants to criticize. I mean generalizations do not really present the entire picture and discussions using such "enveloping statements" go nowhere. Besides which, objectivity is well nigh impossible when critizing another culture. In the first place, one uses one's own culture for basing their criticism. Comparing cultures objectively is very difficult especially if one is not familiar with the other culture. My take is be open-minded. People do things because that's how they were brought up. If one does not understand why or how such behavior came about I feel it is best not to comment on it.

 

[gaijinalways]

slothmachin3 wrote

My take is be open-minded. People do things because that's how they were brought up. If one does not understand why or how such behavior came about I feel it is best not to comment on it.

Looks like you might not be saying much than ! Actually, I think sometimes people in Japan don't seem to know, or at least they don't let on that they know or think about problems that exist here. The infamous 'can't think outside the box' sentiment applies to all cultures to some extent, but it does seem more apt for some. But if people recognize something as a problem, within the culture, than ignoring it won't solve anything. Often some cultures have been pushed to recognition of a problem by another culture, though most likely the culture with the problem still needs to take action.

 

[dangdaga]

What are you implying? Your veiled comment lost me.

 

[pipokun]

Also, take a look at the gini coefficiant for a broader look at the function of income in Japan & the gap between the rich and poor in Japan. Japan has a much better gap between say their top managers and their employees (as compared to the United States who's workers and top level managers are extremely polarized), however there is a growing gap between the poor or middle class and lower and the very rich in Japan. Japan is very much becoming a place of two classes: Haves & Have nots. This has occured at different times in Japan's history where economic situations dictated that certain people became instantly wealthy, for example, during the bubble economy.

Enlighten me more about the coefficient and Japan.

 

[Yumiko33]

I don't understand who somebody can speak bad about one country, if this person don't know enought about history, religion, laws, and mach more things. First, when you wanna to speak about one country, and peoples in this country, you must to know language, and will be good, that you spent some your time in this country. Differece from Japan and other countries is normal. So, I have a cousin who is a vegeterian, and when he said: "I can understood peoples who can eat a little chicken..." I just said to him: "Try to live on the North Pole, maybe you will be have a chance to understand." Each country has good and bad things, so everybody try to live in country whose laws and life-system like.

 

[yukio_michael]

Enlighten me more about the coefficient and Japan.

The Gini coefficiant or index can be used to messure income inequality. Starting before world war II, Japan was privy to a lot of I suppose, industrialist classes whom lost a great deal of wealth in the war, and during the occupation, which had an effect of leveling off the inequalities enjoyed thereafter.

In the bubble period, there was a great exapnse in wealth and spending for people mostly who had already owned property, as property values increased dramatically.

In 1990, the index was at 0.3643, and in 2002, it was at 0.3812, and seems to be rising (the coefficiant in the United States was 0.368 in 2000) link.

A higher number indicates greater inequality up to a theoretical maximum of 1.0, in which one person controls the entire wealth of a country.

What I think, any country should try to do is to a) try to prevent a system that rewards strictly the wealthy classes, and b) does not out-right punish wealth and profit.

Former Democratic Party of Japan leader Naoto Kan recently accused Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of accelerating the trend toward "liberalism for the strong," which he said is turning more people into either "Horiemon (referring to the young Internet mogul Takafumi Horie) or homeless."

link: above.

~And... for the curious. This thread, was what I was looking for when I was arguing w/ shrapnel nee mctojo earlier...

 

[gaijinalways]

gaijinalways wrote

Looks like you might not be saying much than ! Actually, I think sometimes people in Japan don't seem to know, or at least they don't let on that they know or think about problems that exist here. The infamous 'can't think outside the box' sentiment applies to all cultures to some extent, but it does seem more apt for some. But if people recognize something as a problem, within the culture, than ignoring it won't solve anything. Often some cultures have been pushed to recognition of a problem by another culture, though most likely the culture with the problem still needs to take action.

dangdaga wrote

What are you implying? Your veiled comment lost me.

My implication is that for quite a few Japanese, being 'open-minded' is difficult. And something prevelant here is the 'Shoganai' factor, where things could be changed and people lack any independence to improve someone's situation unless they feel that person belongs to a group that they also belong to. Of course there are exceptions, but I sometimes get tired of trying to find them, instead what I often get are excuses. Yet, when you find Japanese people who are kind, they can be overly so, but they are a real rarity, in my opinion of course.

Yumiko33 wrote

Differece from Japan and other countries is normal. So, I have a cousin who is a vegeterian, and when he said: "I can understood peoples who can eat a little chicken..." I just said to him: "Try to live on the North Pole, maybe you will be have a chance to understand." Each country has good and bad things, so everybody try to live in country whose laws and life-system like.

Yes, differences are normal, being discriminated aganist with no laws to protect you is not. Welcome to 'gaijin' reality.

 

[Hanneesh]

if a japanese person come into this forum and post a thread on why america sux, nobody betta say nothin
all i'm sayin

your avin a laugh mate. people are saying that americans abroad should pretend to be canadian too avoid descrimination because everyone hates them so much.

 

[yukio_michael]

your avin a laugh mate. people are saying that americans abroad should pretend to be canadian too avoid descrimination because everyone hates them so much.

The difference is that we're talking about criticisng policies mainly re-inforced by the Japanese government, that are essentially unfair and discrimenatory, and you are talking about the notion that a country for whom 70% or so disaprove of the president's job, should get lambasted even though they have absolutely no say in public policy, or moreover, the electoral process, really---

Tony Blair is no prize either, borderline communist I've heard from some Brittons... but let's talk about how much people HATE Americans...
sigh.

 

[pipokun]

yukio_michael, thanks for your explanation.
I know the meaning and what I wanted was your interpretation.
For example, you may say Japanese women are severely discriminated when it comes to their working conditions, however, some say the rising index is due to improved women's status. There still remains lots of staying-home mom privileges, but no one knows the future.
Do women choose poor partners? Maybe (hopefully), maybe not.

 

[yukio_michael]

yukio_michael, thanks for your explanation.
I know the meaning and what I wanted was your interpretation.
For example, you may say Japanese women are severely discriminated when it comes to their working conditions, however, some say the rising index is due to improved women's status. There still remains lots of staying-home mom privileges, but no one knows the future.

Do women choose poor partners? Maybe (hopefully), maybe not.

Thanks for the response, I wanted to mention too, that the index may be misrepresented as you say, as a result of other factors, this is what I've read from a few people who have tried to interpret it themselves---

I think there exists a great deal of income inequality in the United States, so I'm certainly not leveling sole blame on Japan. In the United States, and the United Kingdom however there is, and has been definitely a public identity given to 'the rich', whereas Japan (and to their benefit, or perhaps economic benefit) for a long time has enjoyed the idea of one single middle-class... Everyone is equal, at least in ideal. People I think are starting to recognise that this just isn't true. People still buy Louis Viuton accross classes however, whereas in most places this is seen solely as a luxury item, primarily owned by the upper classes--- (class is also a bad word in the UK/USA... but regardless), we know we can't all own it. Japan may have, and seems to have, different ideas about social status... which I think excelerated rapidly during the bubble period, where showing your 'good' taste was considered part and parcel of being inthe neuveu riche.

If labour needs dictate it, more women will be better represented in the workplace, but this as you say, doesn't void the desire in Japan for traditional roles for women at home and as the arbiter mostly of the children. Do they choose poor partners? The Japanese male hasn't exactly enjoyed a great reputation...

Pitty the Japanese male. Pushed from indulged boyhood, he fights his way through examination hell, interview high-water, commuter trains, and office politics, shouldering the weight of familial and even national expectations. Now he tands shivering in the spotlight, dirty linen and hidden warts exposed to the world. In these latter days of post-feminism, he doesn't come off well, pelted as he is with accusations of arrogance, materialism, sexual deviance, insensitivity, racism, and sexism. Of course, more than a few Japanese women have been saying this all along.

-Ginny Skord Waters on the books, The Way of the Urban Samurai, (1992, Tengu Books) & Butterflies of the Night: Mama-sans, Geisha, Strippers, and the Japanese men they serve. (1992, Tuttle).

Those books may be a bit dated, but I don't think the social environment has changed too radically much from their publish dates.

 

[gaijinalways]

Some Japanese people have still tried to 'push' this version of reality, of a unified middle class in Japan, but it's been obvious to me for some time that Japan doesn't have this ideal, as more people become Freeters, Neets, or hikikomori, Japan is having a hard time even holding onto the idea of a better future, regardless of the non-violent, peaceful society.

There are some here who cling to the dream, just as there are some in the US who cling to the idea of a country built on high ideals (which our president is slowly killing), and hope to live to see the reality return (I hope in my lifetime.

May both nations prosper in their search for better societies, as I wish all nations who have their people at heart to do well.

 

[Crackpot]

Please answer my question or I might offend you

Ive been back in Japan for over 1 year now after 1 year about 6 years ago and I work in a science institute with all Japanese. Recently my enjoyment of the superficial kindness, gentleness and apparent grace of my hosts has given way to growing frustration at their insincerity which I read as batant cynicism and anger at my own inability to see this earlier.
Recently a couple of incidents have caused me to blow and internal gasket.
As a scientist, debate and discussion of data is essential to correct interpretation and progress. I find myself surrounded by scientists who are "ordered" by the boss to produce a set of results to which they dutifully comply with fabricated data, (which the boss must recognize for what it is because it is so blatant ). What is more the obedient scientist then assumes the air of expert when asked a question by an "inferior" lab member - a female or younger male- with rapid confident responses that are deliberately misleading. The web of deceipt is woven thick throughout the lab but this is another issue to the point I want to highlight:
I have noticed that when somebody is in a position of temporary superiority, by that I mean they are in a position to potentially provide you with useful information, either a shop assistant or research collaborator, they will often not address your query. If you press for an answer or point out they are "maybe" (definetly!) mistaken you will be told this is rude. If I ask what time is it and you say its a sunny day that can be a nice conversation or a impediment to me making my appointment depending on the context. But my main concern in Japan is not offending the confounder his/herself but collateral damage to others i care about more.
For example my beloved girlfriend is working with a collaborator in Hokkaido with all communication by email. She was upset by not understanding this guys "cloning strategy" which was indeed a birds nest. I asked her to ask him what restriction enzyme he used (it sounds technical but a simple question to those in the lab). He send her a lengthy email which as you might expect, did not say what restriction enzyme he used. When I expressed bewilderment and suggested she ask him again she became offended at this direct attitude from me.
Is this type of mild and sever deception present in other walks of life here or is my lab an exception?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Gee Crackpot, what an excellent post! Honest and inciteful to the true nature of most things here. But, the Japanphile amongst us may not agree with your assessment.

Your post was so good, I think it would have better been posted as an OP in a new thread.

I see your points on everything above and you should be confident you have hit the nail on the proverbial head.

 

[Crackpot]

Please answer my question or I might offend you

I am heartened by your echo Strongvoicesforward. I was starting to wonder if I was looking for irritations, which in itself was making me tense. I am also a champion for Japan - almost a Japanophile - based on the little I know of the country so far and I think when I get a realisation that something is not what I thought it is easy to go into oversteer and blast the whole country and its people for "duping" me although of course, I invited the duping in the first place.

An old friend who lived in Japan for nearly 20 years once told me that gaijin here go through peaks and troughs in their relationship with Japan and Im starting to see what he meant.

Going back to my lovely girlfriend who I have by far the closest Japanese relationship with, and who amazes me with her longsuffering of me and unselfish serenity, I dont see many other Japanese like her and it makes me unsettled because either she is not what she seems to be and I am a terrible judge, or she is really different from all the other Japanese I have met although she grew up in a typical edokko family. So Im on heightened alert for subtle clues. Very occassionally I see something trivial she does, and with the weight of my laboratory experiences behind me, I become like Humphrey Bogarts character in the Treasure of the Sierra Madre and think -Ha, you are just like the rest of them - but of course I am wrong. One incident that tripped me off was when we met in Ginza one afternoon. Just as I approached her an old college pal appeared. They talked as I sidled up but she did not break to say hello let alone introduce me to this person. I was left trying to make eye contact with the friend who studiously avoided any, until finally with me feeling like a lemon, the friend departed and my GF turned to greet me. I was absolutely furious and confused because in other parts of the world this is utterly rude. Yet I wasnt sure if this had happened because I was a gaijin or a boyfriend or whether it was typical to do with anyone in a similar situation.

I have a few more minor incidents that struck me but maybe Ive said enough for now...

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Crackpot, what can I say -- except another very inciteful and excellent post. I normally quote things that stand out but everything you say does. And besides, your observations are all right.

But, we do all have a special affinity towards our girlfriends or wife, giving them more leeway than we do others in our judgements of actions.

At the moment I am not feeling very well, so I won`t/can`t address your post in as much detail as I`d like, but I will when better. Hopefully before then, other people who have lived here for a while with their "up and down" feelings of Japan will respond to you. I am surprised no one has thus far. May have something to do with the low traffic today -- perhaps because of Golden Week.

I`lll keep checking back.

 

[White Girl]

I'm going to live here for probably the rest of my life, so sure as hell I can criticise it. Is a Japanese person allowed to criticise Japan? Hell yeah. What about a permanent resident? I really don't see the difference!

Japan does not have nearly enough criticism... I think it would do the country a lot of good to get some issues out in the open! Europe and the U.S. are always criticising themselves, but I almost never hear it here. It's always "look at how wonderful Japan is, we have this wonderful custom, we're so polite...and OH SO HUMBLE. Look at us! Next up: An interview with a foreigner who talks about how wonderful we Japanese are!" in so many magazine articles and stuff. Sometimes it makes me want to gouge my eyes out You can't fix your problems unless you are a little more critical of yourself--you'll be in the dark forever, and you'll have a minority (not necessarily ethnic) that really suffers. I think this "never say anything critical" philosophy contributes greatly to depression and suicide, personally.

So yeeeaaah, bring on the criticism! I voted for "anything goes"!

 

[senseiman]

Glad to see this poll I started 4 years ago is still getting responses!

 

[Pachipro]

It will always get responses from new people who live in Japan, have lived in Japan, and have just discovered Jref. Good thread.

 

[kireikoori]

Criticism of any culture is always fine. But there's a line that it goes too far and alot of people don't seem to stay within it. It's a very delicate, fine line and people should be more aware of it.

As an American alot of people seem to bash on our country. It doesn't affect me so much, I look at myself as an individual more than I look at myself as an American. Most of the time they're bashing things in America like religious fundamentalism or our President Bush or our education system.

With America the criticism doesn't seem as harsh as some of things said about Japan and it makes me uncomfortable. People can just be way cruel in what they say about Japan sometimes.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Many of the things a foreigner could criticize Japan for are, in my humble opinion, things that they only see after being there. Things that the West is criticized for are usually more politically oriented topics, things where Western policy is negatively affecting this group or that cause. Most regular people these days, lacking the level of interest, experience and familiarity the members of this board share in relation to Japan, probably don't have anything to openly criticize Japan about aside from perhaps whaling.

That being said, within this locus of activity many of the things Japan gets commonly bashed for are things we perceive ourselves to have conquered; racism, prejudice, subtle forms of social misogyny, and so on. Every industrialized culture has its downfalls however, so morally speaking its a moot point to linger on Japan's issues for very long unless we're just enjoying the dicussion as an academic endeavour. I think all cultural discussions benefit from as objective a treatment as possible in this sense, otherwise understanding is lost to hasty judgement.
I therefore voted for the middle option, since 'anything or nothing goes'-type answers imply that steps aren't being taken to be objective or sensitive.

 

[w1ngzer0]

Japan Bashing, America Bashing, Mexico Bashing. It happens in all countries and all places.

Ireland is a good example of an extremity. Catholic and Protestant are at constant war with each other for no other reason then being the "right" one.

If your talking about racism; thats a completely unnessary and ignorant subject.

 

[kireikoori]

subtle forms of social misogyny

Haha, that's not a big deal. Misogyny is quite blatant here in the US. However, sexism is a bad thing everywhere and not even the tiniest amount is excusable.

 

[Skullcrushergurl]

It all depends on the person.
Every culture criticizes another. In Japan, the people have no problem bashing America. Just be polite about it I guess.

 

[Uchite]

Polite criticism is acceptable, as long as you take into consideration cultural differences while making it and know what you are talking about.

The thing is, when many Gaijin go to Japan, they expect the way they have it at home. This is totally out of line and unrealistic. What then happens is that all Gaijin become stereotyped because of the stupidity and boorishness of a few.