Japan Bashing

[osias]

Japanese ppl have a blind spot in their field of vision. It is ok to criticize as long as it is reasonable. (But I guess ppl often don't agree on what's reasonable.)

 

[MeAndroo]

Japanese ppl have a blind spot in their field of vision. It is ok to criticize as long as it is reasonable. (But I guess ppl often don't agree on what's reasonable.)

Actually, everyone has a blind spot in their field of vision where the optic nerve connects to the retina. Your brain is just able to fill in the blanks on a regular basis. There are ways of demonstrating it through activities like this.

Now sometimes you get into an expansion comparing this situation in Japan compared to other countries, but sometimes you wish people's anwers were not just 'oh, you don't know enough Japanese' or 'you're not Japanese, so how would you know' (both of which seem to be common slogans used even by Japanophiles here in Japan).

The reason this bugs you is because it's a faulty debate method known as ad hominem. I'd hope this would bug anybody.

 

[godppgo]

Is it okay for illegal immigrants who illegally snuck into the U.S. to scream for justice whenever they don't get their way ?
Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals ?
Japan has the highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.
As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.

This is exactly something I wanted to point out. After been in this forum for a couple of months now I've observed some (not all) posters complaining about "why do Japanese do this" or "why is Japan like this" and demand Japan to change. I am just wondering have it ever occur to these complainers that you are on other's turf? When I came to North America I found some western behaviors annoying but I am okay with that. I asked people how should I behave to integrate to your society and I was totally fine with it.

It seems that for some westerners in Japan, rather than trying to understand and immerse into Japanese society, they demand Japanese to suit their need. Of course, not all foreigners in Japan are like this. Most of them might not agree with Japanese behaviors but at least they don't demand Japanese to behave in certain ways so the gaijin will feel more at home.

 

[osias]

Actually, everyone has a blind spot in their field of vision where the optic nerve connects to the retina. Your brain is just able to fill in the blanks on a regular basis. There are ways of demonstrating it through activities like this.

Do you know the word "analogy"?

 

[godppgo]

Actually, everyone has a blind spot in their field of vision where the optic nerve connects to the retina. Your brain is just able to fill in the blanks on a regular basis. There are ways of demonstrating it through activities like this.

This is some cool stuff!

 

[Shrapnel]

I concur !

This is exactly something I wanted to point out. After been in this forum for a couple of months now I've observed some (not all) posters complaining about "why do Japanese do this" or "why is Japan like this" and demand Japan to change. I am just wondering have it ever occur to these complainers that you are on other's turf? When I came to North America I found some western behaviors annoying but I am okay with that. I asked people how should I behave to integrate to your society and I was totally fine with it.
It seems that for some westerners in Japan, rather than trying to understand and immerse into Japanese society, they demand Japanese to suit their need. Of course, not all foreigners in Japan are like this. Most of them might not agree with Japanese behaviors but at least they don't demand Japanese to behave in certain ways so the gaijin will feel more at home.

Most westerners in Japan are arrogant and are not used to being treated like second class citizens. Conform and reform should be the modus vivendi of all foreigners living and working in Japan !

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Most westerners in Japan are arrogant and are not used to being treated like second class citizens.

Let's not split hairs here. Don't you mean white people? I know this sounds racist, but if you subsitute "white people" for "westerners" I would agree with that sentence 100%.

Ouch, huh?

 

[MeAndroo]

Do you know the word "analogy"?

Certainly, I enjoy it almost as much as the word "tangent."

 

[gaijinalways]

Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals ?

No, sometimes it's much lower than that, the treatment that is. I might say in some cases the clows in the circus are being paid at least to be laughed at.

Japan has the

highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion

and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.

Depends on how you define highest standard of living. For me, that includes the quality of life, not just the income level.

As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.

Since whenﾂ do guests pay taxes?

Most westerners in Japan are arrogant and are not used to being treated like second class citizens. Conform and reform should be the modus vivendi of all foreigners living and working in Japan !

Sorry, you can be treated as second class anywhere, but I feel Japan is one of the most developed countries that is infamous for badly treating visitors based solely on their appearance, not necessarily on any other qualities. I've been badly treated in France and England, but no where on any scale like Japan. About the only place I can state where it seemed to be worse was China (which I don't consider as fully developed, from a technological and modern sense)! Though strangely enough I enjoyed living in Hong Kong more, go figure!

If people are complaining about customs, you're right, it's poor manners. Customs are different alll over the world, some you will like or feel are easy to adjust to, other take more of an effort (though they may be ignored sometimes if it's somewhat more of a life choice, like eating sushi). But if we are talking about discrimanatory practices, that's different, as Japan continues to not have any laws prohibiting or penalizing discrimanatory behaviour. Instead, people must sue over each individual case (which is still pretty prohibitvely expensive) and I think aspects of discrimination are not well understood by the judges hearing the cases, thus some cases are dismissed simply because the judges can't apply clear standards to the cases.

 

[MeAndroo]

What's interesting to me is the Japanese definition of foreigner, in how it differs from that of the west. Most korean zainichi will tell you that.

If foreigners living IN Japan can't criticize it, and those living outside lack the first-hand knowledge to criticize it, who will challenge their long-standing traditions of treating foreigners like crap? The attitude of some posters reminds me of those Americans who say "if you don't like it, you can get out." Attempting to effect social change for the equal treatment of foreigners living legally in your society isn't something to be brushed off so easily.

 

[osias]

Criticism itself is not wrong, but ppl tend to dislike someone with "I'm right, you are wrong" kind of attitude. Many ppl tend to do this, maybe including myself. It strikes them as rude. So maybe it really depends how you express yourself.
In another asian country where I live in, many negative evaluations and complaints by foreigners are met with "Go Home!!!" (At least, it looks like no one does this in the forum.) It's about losing/saving their "face". They are proud ppl.

 

[Davey]

Let's not split hairs here. Don't you mean white people? I know this sounds racist, but if you subsitute "white people" for "westerners" I would agree with that sentence 100%.
Ouch, huh?

What do you mean with westerners? Americans? Dutch? French people?

100% disagree on westerners!

 

[godppgo]

What's interesting to me is the Japanese definition of foreigner, in how it differs from that of the west. Most korean zainichi will tell you that.

If foreigners living IN Japan can't criticize it, and those living outside lack the first-hand knowledge to criticize it, who will challenge their long-standing traditions of treating foreigners like crap? The attitude of some posters reminds me of those Americans who say "if you don't like it, you can get out." Attempting to effect social change for the equal treatment of foreigners living legally in your society isn't something to be brushed off so easily.

I don't think Japanese are in nature racist. They are just not used to and not sure how to deal with gaijin. Lack of experience with gaijin then makes them defensive when it comes to interacting with gaijin. When people become defensive they retract their tentacles and hide in their shells. Put yourself in their shoes and try to imagine what's it like growing up in an environemnt where 99.9% of people around you is Japaneses (seeing gaijin from TV doesn't count). Not to mention the territorial trait common to many asian people.

Criticism is okay as long as its made under the intention that one is trying to understand and interact sincerely with the Japanese. So the more proper saying would be "If you don't like it, get used to it, learn their language(at least a few phrases), show your sincereness, be one of them".

 

[MeAndroo]

Oddly enough, the Japanese are UNracist. Theirs is an odd xenophobia that revolves around wanting foreigners who live there to assimilate totally, forsaking citizenships, passports, and even surnames. The term gaijin doesn't mean foreigner, it means outsider. Koreans who are born and raised in Japan, but maintain their Korean surname are treated worse than a Korean who moves to Japan and becomes a naturalized citizen. This isn't racist; rather, it's anti-non-Japanese. Examples naturally exist outside of this, such as the treatment some mixed people get, but I see that as having a connection to the "you aren't Japanese" motivation.

I understand their society is relatively homogenous, but I don't think the everyday behavior of the average Japanese is the issue here. I tend to think the average Japanese is more willing to extend greetings to an obvious foreigner than someone in say, America, might be. My problem isn't with these people, it's with the way the government can sometimes systematically focus on un-assimilated foreigners. By saying a typical Korean Zainichi without a Japanese surname isn't a Japanese citizen, forcing them to carry gaijin torokusho (foreign registration card), they send the message that they AREN'T a part of the Japanese people. This opens them up to bullying through school and difficulties in the workplace.

For example, the librarian at the international center at Waseda U is a Korean. Her parents had adopted a Japanese surname before she was born and didn't encounter any real problems. At some point in her early life, their surname was restored to the original Korean, and she was bullied pretty mercilessly in school for it.

 

[gaijinalways]

Theirs is an odd xenophobia that revolves around wanting foreigners who live there to assimilate totally, forsaking citizenships, passports, and even surnames.

This is somewhat true for any country, but as stated, more so in Japan.

The term gaijin doesn't mean foreigner, it means outsider.

Does it ever!

This isn't racist; rather, it's anti-non-Japanese.

It certainly is discrimination (doesn't matter if itis racial or not).

I don't think Japanese are in nature racist. They are just not used to and not sure how to deal with gaijin. Lack of experience with gaijin then makes them defensive when it comes to interacting with gaijin. When people become defensive they retract their tentacles and hide in their shells. Put yourself in their shoes and try to imagine what's it like growing up in an environemnt where 99.9% of people around you is Japaneses (seeing gaijin from TV doesn't count). Not to mention the territorial trait common to many asian people.

I see this arguement a lot. I suppose at times it would be difficult to distinguish between whether people are discrimanatory or simply xenophobic or ignorant. But I would think especially urban areas would have more contact with non-Japanese, so this 'lack of experience' should be declining, no? You could argue the same for some countries where the population is predominantly one major culture, but Japan seems to revel in it. That and the government's policy of promoting 'foreigners as a problem' doesn't help.

Criticism itself is not wrong, but ppl tend to dislike someone with "I'm right, you are wrong" kind of attitude. Many ppl tend to do this, maybe including myself. It strikes them as rude. So maybe it really depends how you express yourself.

This true, if you tend to polarize an arguement, it will be more liklely to be ill received. The funny thing is I see some Japanese doing it 'gaijin always do this...' type statements that piss me off. How can they lump Americans, French, Brazilians, etc. in the same category?

 

[yukio_michael]

Is it okay for illegal immigrants who illegally snuck into the U.S. to scream for justice whenever they don't get their way?

Is this a serious question--- your posts have been so unctuous, first you're saying that a girl is worthless & crazy if she doesn't drink alcohol and eat natto, which went over so well, and now you're basically talking about 'the illegals' being whiney about trying to improve their standard of living, while at the same time, doing jobs not wanted and not filled by the host country, all while aoiding being classified as a felon, or persona non grata for being there illegally... try explaining the economies of California and Texas without these immigrants.

Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals?

Why on earth would people ever want to be treated as equals? Given the chance to earn an equal wage, or say, the chance to get housing equally, or not to be looked at as criminals when they walk down the street of their prefecture, not to be the focus of sensationalized news coverage that tries to frame them as the purveyors of crime, not to be thought of as subpar human beings, or 'different' human beings who do not or can not think, learn, or act to be a part of Japanese society... to be free of statements of government officials that suppose that they might riot in the occasion of another earthquake. Why on earth would anyone ever criticize that?

Japan has the highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion.

Japan will continue to have the highest standard of living, solely in your opinion, because that is just not true... anyone who has had to shop at a 99yen store for the majority of their meals knows this to be true.

...and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.

First, you don't, so you'll have to put up with other people's pesky opinions on the matter, just like you give us yours... Second, we're talking about mostly people who all have opinions about a place based on having lived there, things they've experienced, etc, not out-right 'bashing'.

As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.

Complaining probably does get you nowhere... but at what point do you stop being a 'guest' and start being a resident? At what part do you become a member of society, and not just gaikokujin, if you are Chinese, or Korean, or Brazillian, or from the United States... when? Your logic of forcing people to only say good things about ANY country just fosters more and more ignorance.

 

[yukio_michael]

Japan continues to not have any laws prohibiting or penalizing discrimanatory behaviour.

I think it's important to point this sort of thing out--- I would ad it to my previous post, but the editing system at jref has been odd lately, and it makes editing your threads a bit of a chore because you have to re-format them.

Japan also does not in fact have any laws prohibiting hate-speech. From wiki:

Hate speech is not a criminal offense but speech of insult, such as calling someone "fool!", is a minor civil offense which results in monetary compensation which is lower than the cost of going through judicial process. Japan does not have human rights legislation which enforces or penalises discriminatory activities committed by citizen, business or non governmental organisation. Attempt has been made in legislature to enact human rights legislation. In 2002, a draft was submitted to the house of common but it did not reach the vote. Had the law passed, it would have set up the Human Rights commission which would investigate, name and shame or financially penalise discriminatory practice as well as hate speech committed by private citizens or establishments.

...additionally, there is not a good history of treatment of indiginous minorities within Japan nor amnesty seekers, nor even females if you take in to consideration the workplace.

If these are the things that people are criticizing, I'd say that this dialouge is valid concerning any nation.

 

[gaijinalways]

Well put Yukio, makes sense to me. But a lot of people argue that other countries don't allow full rights to foreign residents, which is true to some extent. Examples included Israel, and I have read about problems in Sweden and Finland for married couples who can't live together. I'm still surprised that for the size of the Japanese economy (2nd largest in the world for a nation) and as a nation with a fairly high standard of living, yet laws concerning 'equal' rights for foreign residents, women, and minorities, Japan ranks pretty badly. I think comparing Japan to countries that are just as bad or worse doesn' t push Japan to try to change for the better. Hopefully all countries should be trying to raise their standards, not just simply looking for others that are worse.

 

[Han Chan]

I think that people who come from other countries naturally have other perspectives on things in Japan than the native population. That is how it is to be forigner!

If you find that some things are different in Japan you should first try to understand why. Ask curiously instead complaining. Finally if you find that there are things that you dislike, you should not expect that you or your Japanese frields have much power to change these things.

It is fine to engage in dialogue - you observation might be interesting, but if you think you can change things by merely critizing/bitching, you are wrong. It is like that in Japan and everywhere else. Actually, if you start complaining about the Danes in Denmark you will quickly be told that you are free to leave! The Japanese are often too polite to tell their forign friends to stop complaining all the time.

 

[osias]

This true, if you tend to polarize an arguement, it will be more liklely to be ill received. The funny thing is I see some Japanese doing it 'gaijin always do this...' type statements that piss me off. How can they lump Americans, French, Brazilians, etc. in the same category?

Right, I agree. They see no difference.

 

[Shrapnel]

Late reply to Yukio

Is this a serious question--- your posts have been so unctuous, first you're saying that a girl is worthless & crazy if she doesn't drink alcohol and eat natto, which went over so well, and now you're basically talking about 'the illegals' being whiney about trying to improve their standard of living, while at the same time, doing jobs not wanted and not filled by the host country, all while aoiding being classified as a felon, or persona non grata for being there illegally... try explaining the economies of California and Texas without these immigrants

.

First of all, no illegal should complain about his/her standard of living if they are illegally here ! And it should be a felony to defy U.S. Law and border security. We apply it to the Haitians and everyone else who is non-American.
What makes Mexican's any different ? Is it because they choose to depress our wages and overburden are health care and education system while hard working tax paying American citizens foot the bill ? I don't understand your level of reasoning. I do beleive that America should develop a more comprehensive way to deal with this issues but comments like you made are completely ludicrous.

Why on earth would people ever want to be treated as equals? Given the chance to earn an equal wage, or say, the chance to get housing equally, or not to be looked at as criminals when they walk down the street of their prefecture, not to be the focus of sensationalized news coverage that tries to frame them as the purveyors of crime, not to be thought of as subpar human beings, or 'different' human beings who do not or can not think, learn, or act to be a part of Japanese society... to be free of statements of government officials that suppose that they might riot in the occasion of another earthquake.

Equality is a fundamental right that all western countries espouse. Again, those that enter the U.S. illegally are criminals. And you can' apply this to Japan. This is a foreign country where all non-Japanese are guest, not equals.

Japan will continue to have the highest standard of living, solely in your opinion, because that is just not true... anyone who has had to shop at a 99yen store for the majority of their meals knows this to be true.
First, you don't, so you'll have to put up with other people's pesky opinions on the matter, just like you give us yours

Japan has the highest standard of living regardless of whether you shop at the 99 yen store. The cost of living is expensive because Japan produces such high quality products. If you can afford that then I suggest you get a higher paying job. Not everything has the be cheap you know. I can give you so many examples but I just don't have time now.

 

[yukio_michael]

Is it because they choose to depress our wages and overburden are health care and education system while hard working tax paying American citizens foot the bill?

What taxes are YOU paying for Mexicans? And last I checked, Mexican immigrants didn't have the most stellar healthcare. Last, depress our wages, you mean by taking away the lucrative dangerous jobs such as in slaughterhouses where they earn a fraction of a living wage?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for doing it by the books. I just think that in certain instances, you can't declare that millions of people living in your country who's only crime is the lack of a valid visa to be illegal--- Reagan gave 2.7 million immigrants amnesty in 1986 with the Immigration Reform & Control Act. I'm not for giving criminals free passage, I'm not for skirting the system of law, but just as in Japan, there is a function for these people living here, if you like it or not, and they're taking nothing away from you.

I don't understand your level of reasoning. I do beleive that America should develop a more comprehensive way to deal with this issues but comments like you made are completely ludicrous.

All nations should develop a more comprehensive way to deal with immigration issues... there are these issues being raised in Japan now it's focusing on the finger printing of foreigners. Japan has illegals too, doing the same type of work that the Japanese choose not to do, I don't believe they will expell them.

Equality is a fundamental right that all western countries espouse. Again, those that enter the U.S. illegally are criminals. And you can' apply this to Japan. This is a foreign country where all non-Japanese are guest, not equals.

I would hope that equality is a fundamental human right. You speak like a great nationalist, of expeling the un-desirables. "All non-Japanese"... to what extent are you extending your final solution to the immigration problem? Every race in Japan not Japanese? I'm glad the actual goverments don't act the way you think, or we'd be rounding up people in the steets to put in blockades.

Japan has the highest standard of living regardless of whether you shop at the 99 yen store.

[/b]NO it doesn't. I'll ask you now, are you saying this because a) you've lived there, or b) you read articles concerning Japan's economic condition, because it seems as if neither of these two things are true.

This is a fairly good article summary on facets of the Japanese standard of living..., asides from that you have to look at GDP, furthermore, a bigmac is a bigmac anywhere you buy it--- if you buy it for 6 dollars in Japan, it doesn't mean you're getting a better value. There are Japanese products that cost more in Japan than they do outside of Japan, which must explain your idea of their stellar standard of living.

Also, take a look at the gini coefficiant for a broader look at the function of income in Japan & the gap between the rich and poor in Japan. Japan has a much better gap between say their top managers and their employees (as compared to the United States who's workers and top level managers are extremely polarized), however there is a growing gap between the poor or middle class and lower and the very rich in Japan. Japan is very much becoming a place of two classes: Haves & Have nots. This has occured at different times in Japan's history where economic situations dictated that certain people became instantly wealthy, for example, during the bubble economy.

The cost of living is expensive because Japan produces such high quality products.

Now who's being ludicrous?

If you can afford that then I suggest you get a higher paying job. Not everything has the be cheap you know. I can give you so many examples but I just don't have time now.

Yeah, those lousy low paid, over-worked employees should just work harder. You're a real humanitarian aren't you.

Again, are you saying this based on study of the economy, your travels to Japan, or just your own fantasies?

~ another nod: here

 

[yukio_michael]

Also, we're not comparing standard of living in Japan to standard of living in Nepal... we're looking at it world-wide, which I think it hovers somewhere around 9th... I'll edit this second post when I find a link to something relevant. It's a standard of living that has certainly made it a less-desirable place to live, if someone could link to any older jref forum threads about that I couldn't locate those either... dang it.

Culturally, I feel like the Aughts have brought with them two unfortunate, but understandable developments in Japan: the acknowledgment of wealth discrepancy and a re-emergence of narikin culture. Although the myth of "everyone being middle class" still drives more and more people every year into consumer debt and sarakin-related troubles, the difference between poor and rich is becoming much more apparent in everyday Japanese life. Especially with the friitaa and those joining the workforce, some people clearly have money to spend and the others are eating at Yoshinoya everyday. I don't want to exaggerate this phenomenon, but I do think the rise in income equality has crossed a threshold and the peak of the iceberg is dipping above the water.

Excerpt from a previous link--- though I think it shares my opinion well enough to quote.

More as I think of it.

 

[Shrapnel]

Come to a head...

Yukio,

I see your point but we seem to be drifting a little off topic.

Here's what I think. I'm basing my logic off of empirical observation by using my own experience. I have been living and working in Japan now for the last four years and so when I say Japan's standard of living is high it's because I live a life of opulence in comparison to most.

You, on the other hand, are using a more authoritative approach to your reasoning by backing up what you say with references and a comprehensive analagy of Japan and past and present and how it relates to the average Japanese family.

 

[yukio_michael]

You, on the other hand, are using a more authoritative approach to your reasoning by backing up what you say with references and a comprehensive analagy of Japan and past and present and how it relates to the average Japanese family.

I lived there for six months as well, and I can tell you that all manner of people have different ideas about what constitutes a 'high standard of living', even those I knew who lived in fairly nice parts of Shibuya had to have supplimental income as well as become slaves to the companies they work for--- ie, sleeping at work, etc etc--- and these are people whom I would consider to be well off. None of them considered that the horrible work conditions were fair or adequate standards of living--- if they could afford to live in luxury or not.

You cant judge a nation's standard of living on your own opulance.

ps. I'll add one last thing... there is a difference between "freedom", and "freedom of purchase", and as Billy Bragg once said, "You'll wait a long time for a Beverly Hills coup...."