Is Japan Morally qualified for UNSC Permanent Membership?

maybe, i`m in a wrong thread , but

the problem is also within us. We are not united. Everyone (on a state`s scale
and often is on individual scale as well) seeks his own profit, which is both - money and power. Globalization often turns ugly, beneficial for a bunch of big companies and few individuals.
We are not united. On the global scope. Few countries feel free themselves to abuse some less developed states (damn these words 'less developed' and 'backward' - technological criterias can`t be a proper yardstick for such judgement), and others, capable enough to prevent it, just sit and watch or even send their troops not minding strongly objection fron their own citezens. "We shall bring you democracy!" Sure, on the spears and inside cluster bombs, enjoy folks! Mind if i`ll despise such democracy? We delegated our powers to the state and to the government, and now, seeing that they are abusing it, what can we do?

We are not united. As human beings. For example, while US world decides what should be considered of more threat - "fallen bear or raising dragon", people (average citizens) are discussing who we should make alliance with. "Definitely China! We are bordering each other. We could form partnership, and become a second force in a world..." - say some. "Crap! - say the other - China never was our partner. It was India. We should go for it" "No China, - add others - it needs us less. It`s a country with long history and it`s on a rise. It will dump us soon and will even head for our resources in Siberia we shall look in Central Asia... " and so on. Why it has to be like this? Partnership coloured with self-advancement, but not with a mutual benefit and further development? Why it has to be measured with economical values but not humanistic?

We are not united. As citizens. When some engage themselves in any social activism, they can be considered by the rest of people as off trolley histerics and paranoiacs. We can watch our government doing 'wrong' thing and go on with it keeping silence or even finding some excuse or justification...

sorry for outburst, just a long-standing problem

Void said:

the problem is also within us. We are not united. Everyone (on a state`s scale
and often is on individual scale as well) seeks his own profit, which is both - money and power. Globalization often turns ugly, beneficial for a bunch of big companies and few individuals.
We are not united. On the global scope. Few countries feel free themselves to abuse some less developed states (damn these words 'less developed' and 'backward' - technological criterias can`t be a proper yardstick for such judgement), and others, capable enough to prevent it, just sit and watch or even send their troops not minding strongly objection fron their own citezens. "We shall bring you democracy!" Sure, on the spears and inside cluster bombs, enjoy folks! Mind if i`ll despise such democracy? We delegated our powers to the state and to the government, and now, seeing that they are abusing it, what can we do?

We are not united. As human beings. For example, while US world decides what should be considered of more threat - "fallen bear or raising dragon", people (average citizens) are discussing who we should make alliance with. "Definitely China! We are bordering each other. We could form partnership, and become a second force in a world..." - say some. "Crap! - say the other - China never was our partner. It was India. We should go for it" "No China, - add others - it needs us less. It`s a country with long history and it`s on a rise. It will dump us soon and will even head for our resources in Siberia we shall look in Central Asia... " and so on. Why it has to be like this? Partnership coloured with self-advancement, but not with a mutual benefit and further development? Why it has to be measured with economical values but not humanistic?

We are not united. As citizens. When some engage themselves in any social activism, they can be considered by the rest of people as off trolley histerics and paranoiacs. We can watch our government doing 'wrong' thing and go on with it keeping silence or even finding some excuse or justification...

sorry for outburst, just a long-standing problem

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I totally agree with you that you are in a deadlock . It can be understood that the pursuit of Economy is beneficial for all the citizens in Russia , and Putin will give the Russian Federation a more suitable method.

By the way , I appreciate your military force very much ,especially Stalin's powerful defense on WWII against cruel Nazi army.

qwertyu said:

lexico, I'm afraid any kind of fighting involving N. Korea will end up dragging China, S. Korea and even Russia in.

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Yes.
I think what Japan needs to realize is that while the Japan-Us tie of mutual defense may be genuine, any immediate negative side-effect that Japan might experience is ultimately not America's problem unless in remote, indirect ways. In the final analysis it is an expendible entity according to the cold logic of international politics. If I am wrong, war is not an option for Japan either.

A good question to ask ourselves is "Do the American and Japanese neo-cons lack the appetite for "action"?" After Iraq, they are aching for a good fight with the rest of the axis-of-evil and axis-of-lesser-evil.

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What is truly scary is not that they have the appetite/capability of destruction for self-interest; but that they have a particular issue to go after with or without the intention of profit. Of course, only theoretically so, and there's always many ways to be profitable, such as via Halyburton business and the like.

Forcing one's way on another in general; forcing one's will in particular; do these make up the timeless nature of the superpowers ?
"You follow my way, I let you live, even prosper, as long as you keep to the covenant."
Is religion uniquely to blame for such behavior or arrogance or is it a fundamental social fabric of humanity ? Is it universal trait applicable to the whole universe ?

It doesn't matter if it sounds insane. Iraq is insane, but did it stop them? We ignored Mein Kampf because we ask ourselves how anyone could have taken it seriously. We're ignoring "The Project for a new American Century" at our own peril.

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Long-term plans to maintain the status quo or to improve on it isn't really the problem itself. The ability to take methodical steps to carry that out without regret or remorse what is politically unjustified and unreasonable is what's truly worrisome. The analogy to leprosy seems apt, which is supposed to cause loss of bodily protrusions due to lack of the tactile sense or pain. No pain leads to wounds that only get worse quickly with the result that fingers, toes, ear lobes, and nose fall off. Callousness to others' pain is like leprosy without medicine; how do we/they stop that from happening ?

Void, I'm completely sympathetic to your outburst. Unlike you, I have long given up on hopes of human beings ever coming together for the common good. I love human individuals, my friends, relatives, those I meet while travelling, but I guess I'm a bit of a cynic and a misanthrope like Voltaire, Jonathan Swift, etc., I think that human beings are ugly, and the ugliest manifestation of humanity is war. I am not even asking people to act outside of their interest anymore, that is beyond hope, I'm asking the minimal, please don't do harm to others. Please do not kill and hurt others. Do not wage war.

I guess it's also to do with my atheism, I don't believe there's a god that makes us good. I try to be a decent human being, and to me, it means living by the Golden Rule - do not do to others what you don't want others to do to you. Poverty, disease, injustice will always exist because so few humans are capable of compassion towards others, but so be it. However, I loathe war with a vengeance. In the absence of god, evil nonetheless exist, and after witnessing the horrors of WWI and WWII, I guess I really started to understand the French Existentialists and the Modern Art movement about war being a unique evil.

Which is why it makes me angry when people defend the indefensible. It seems the only "mistake" Japan made was LOSING the war. War criminals are that because the "winners" determined it. The ugly war-mongering past holds nostalgia still for those who dream of "greatness" for their country on the backs of others. War is evil, period. A hundred years ago, Japan was an evil, exploitative country like Nazi Germany. If Japan ever thinks of itself as "good", it should unambiguously ADMIT that it was evil to take the lives of so many millions of completely innocent human beings for no other reason than to enrich and accrue power unto itself. It wasn't self-defense, no one was coming to invade Japan, least of all, Korea or China. Decent people should stop excusing the glorification of evil. No excuses.

I'm equally disdainful of those Chinese who harped about how Mao won the war. China didn't win, China lost BIG, not just during the war but also after. The violence and evil never left, the generation that saw the ugliness of war lost some of their humanity. It was the same in Russia too, losing millions in the final confrontation with Hitler. The two countries practically committed suicide after WWII.

As history repeats itself, notice the new world order of George Bush Jr, the stupid Creep-in-Chief, so don't get upset when countries quickly form short-term strategic alliances. Be thankful that you are not an Iraqi man in a torture camp in your own country, that your baby wasn't blown up. Russia, India and China will never dream of the common dream of helping eachother in a better world, they can't transcend their human nature, but are merely being human in trying to do some counter-maneuvring to prevent tragedy from happening to them again.

lex, I think part of my earlier post answered some of that. There will always be Nazis and neo-cons lusting after the abstract - Power, Glory, History, Uber Alles. It means war, hot, or if we're lucky, cold. They will not be convinced that it isn't a zero-sum game, that co-operation, multipolarity could lead to a better life for all. It's not in their all-or-nothing nature. In normal times, we keep these "crazies" at bay. The only way is to wake up people to what's going on before it's too late. I'll go on an anti-war march again as soon as one's organised in HK, the meagre little thing I can do.

qwertyu, i am not very optimistic about humanity. Just want to believe, sometimes. I am sort of in love with this world and want it to stay in one piece
Most of the people i`ve talked think that this is human nature: desire to dominate, to abuse, ego-trip by the means of power. I want to believe there is also something else. History shows that steretypes could be broken, slowly, sometimes painfully, but it is possible.

Yes, i am grateful to the destiny, that i am not living in Iraq, do not suffer from hunger, and never been endagered with bombing of any sort (but shouldn`t i say, yet?) But i also question myself, what can single individual do, what the groups of soul-mates throughout the world can do? Wouldn`t be my life a waste if i will follow the path of the consuming (or self-consuming %\ ) society without asking my own questions and without
any attempts to prevent it from self-destruction?
Many of the people i know, cannot understand and accept unhimanistic behaivior. And, i bet, there are many of such people whom i never met. So, isn`t there any hope for all of us? (though sometimes i am likely to shoot all with my own hands )

There is one good thing about global economy - there are many international investments in Asian region, maybe it will prevent the war in this region.
Many weestern (european, US) countries have to admit a lot about their crimes against humanity, especially during XX century. In fact, Russia commited suicide not after WWII, but a bit earlier. Maybe, it is nationalistic pride, but i think that last confrontation with Hitler was necessary, but our post-war policy is ve-e-ery questionable.

Maybe it is good enough to build a coalition on a ny base, just to balance the powers and to prevent the war. But how can such alliance endure. There is a fable about swan, fish and hare in one cart, do you think they were able to move it far?

As for NK, i think eventually it will become one country again. I don`t think SK wants it devastated. And as it was said in enother thread taking into account existence of nuclear facility any attack can endanger big area of asian region. Hopefully, neither japanese nor chinese will support the US on that isue.

As for the the thread, i think UN and its policy needs careful and thorough revision

Most of the people i`ve talked think that this is human nature: desire to dominate, to abuse, ego-trip by the means of power. I want to believe there is also something else. History shows that steretypes could be broken, slowly, sometimes painfully, but it is possible.

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The war is not the stereotype, it's just the ugly crime caused by somebody.

adam, i am not about stereotyping the war, but about typical patterns of human behavior...
Besides, it`s very easy to notice ugly crime caused on a global scale, but how often do we notice such crimes after ourselves, on individual, personal level? Or most of the times just trying to justify actually indefensible? %)))

void said:

Many of the people i know, cannot understand and accept unhimanistic behaivior. And, i bet, there are many of such people whom i never met. So, isn`t there any hope for all of us? (though sometimes i am likely to shoot all with my own hands )

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You are a completist , with a wonderful sight into the future , but in reality ,all the human beings belong to certain region or country , no real free man actually , so you can't do anything you like , there 'll always be things that bother you , getting you sorrow and angry ,but that's the life isn't it?

Conflicts exist anywhere, just accomodate with it.

void said:

There is one good thing about global economy - there are many international investments in Asian region, maybe it will prevent the war in this region.

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Yes, I do agree with you . Economy is the basis of all things including law and politics , so , where there's the profit, there's the interest , it becomes a golden area , many entrepreneurs are investing in Asian countries like China and India , they have been involved with the Foreign captital ,e.g. when Japan 's about to invade Shanghai in China , as there are a lot of Japanese Shops , Supermarkets ,factories and companies there , the businessmen will prevent the gov't from destroying them , Politicians can control the businessmen ,but for the opposite , businessmen control the politicians with larger percentage.

So , I actually don't worry about the war in the East Asia Region , Economy has a chief function unless they don't want to make money any more.

but in reality ,all the human beings belong to certain region or country , no real free man actually , so you can't do anything you like , there 'll always be things that bother you , getting you sorrow and angry ,but that's the life isn't it?

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gee, does freedom mean to do all you want to? :?
there is nothing actually wrong in the world with different countries and regions. As it was said, diversities enrich us, not restrict

unfortunatly, my life does not only come down to the things that bother me or getting me angry. On contrary, i think it`s wonderful, and there must be more to life than violence, lie and despair. People do make our world ugly, but they also capable of making it beautiful. It is very hard to accept in a light of human history, but nevertheless...

Conflicts exist anywhere, just accomodate with it.

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i`ve read recently that on single citizen of Laos during Vietnam war came up to 5-10 tons of different bombs. Afganistan is almost driven to the neolit age.
People are still perish in Chechnya. At the end of XX century people in Europe had to learn what is it like to hide in an airshelter. Normal life in Iraq ended with the first sound of falling missile... should i continue and rewind it to the WWII, WWI and so on?
I must accommodate with such things? Doesn`t this accommodation actually mean to agree with possibility of future bombing of my own house?

For all the angry rhetoric, I have to confess that I'm EXTRAORDINARILY fortunate as a human being, with no political baggage even. I have nothing to get angry about in my life, except for very abstract issues like those I post about, "abstract" in the sense that I'm not personally touched by them, but having empathy for the victims of the events. I thank my father for trying to cultivating a strong sense for sharing my possessions, justice and compassion for the weak, even as he provided for me a life of relative safety and privilege. I'm even a very lazy person, as I had always dreamt about dedicating myself to charitable and non-profit organisations, but never getting beyond a little volunteer work in my free time. So, a very little extra giving here and there, and posting passionately to defend what I feel is just and right, all just makes me a pretty average person, contributing to the world's problems, dreaming about the heroic people who actually made a difference, like in Hotel Rwanda or the Motorcycle Diaries. Bah.

That said, I have studied enough of history/philosophy to get really alarmed about the events of our recent time. I want to remain optimistic that we won't make the same horrendous mistakes of the past, but then a skim through history reveal just that, we always make the same horrendous mistakes. What strikes me particularly is a lot of testimony from the WWII survivors that some disturbing parallels have emerged in the way people think, from talk of hegemony, empire, pre-emptive action, military glorification, rampant nationalist propaganda, fear-mongering and other frightening nonsense.

Yes, normal people care about their well-being, wealth, health, etc. but history has shown that with the right catalysts and brilliant charismatic leaders "steering" public opinion and emotions, it can happen all over again, as it did thousands of time before.

qwertyu
Amen!
but shouldn`t we at least try?

qwertyu said:

I want to remain optimistic that we won't make the same horrendous mistakes of the past, but then a skim through history reveal just that, we always make the same horrendous mistakes.

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Yes, I am in the same situation as you that personally I haven't got touched by the illegal or criminal wars and other scaled conflicts , but I am also a practicist, I don't think we have made a real function to turn the situation into the right direction as we are just talking and chatting and discussing something far away from our life.

Just above my post , Void has asked a good question , it's the first way to take function ,but Void ,could I ask how you will try for the world to be better.I have to announce that I also love the world as you .

Adam, right now i am sort of puzzled, got a lot of information to study. But i think there exist possibility for the society to become self-organized, but not only when facing some threats and dangers. Not in the terms of revolutions (what actually means that society is really sick). But something different... It doesn`t have to be a global start, it can be born at province, in small regions, or as the some sort of union among various educational organisations.
I am not as optimistic as UNESCO programme outlining its goals and claiming to step into knowledge society at the year 2007, i think we have not yet breached the boundary between post-industrial age and information society.
What does it mean - active citizenship? What can be changed in my own town and region? in my own way of thinking?

Void , actually , I don't think even the knowledge society can help organizing the world instead of the power and economy.I really hate the power but it's the fact, you have a good opinion about a harmonious society to actively avoid the conflicts or wars and turned into a right direction in an automatic way.But do you think it's too ideal , I can't say that such a world will never come ,but I think it takes at least 1000 years to become that , I can't see what about the situation 1000 years later ,maybe China has controlled the world or it has been totally occupied , I really don't know , but I know an abstract concept : When if in one group there are more than one leader that their power is somewhat in the same level , they will have conflicts as they want to EAT the profit which might be shared ,every man is greedy in itself , when one gets $100 ,he wants more ,but you can't destroy this because it's the instinct in themselves.

it is ideal, there always (?) will be 'sheeps' and 'wolves' but not neccesserely till the war stage. Besides with every year processes are sort of accelerating, therefore such level of self-organized society can be achived less than in 1000 yr (unless we`ll destroy ourselves %( ) As i learned from sinergetics, movement to the whole starts from distant and relatively small flows. We`ve got the chance still

Greed, perhaps, an indespensible part of human nature, but not an instinct. And btw, humans are the only animals what are not absolutely governed by instincts, and most of the times go against them. This is our blessing and damnation. It`s up to us to choose

void said:

Greed, perhaps, an indespensible part of human nature, but not an instinct.

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If one person has the greed , it's not terrible, but if a nation or a people have it , then it's just like the ultimate disaster.Instinct can be usually referred to the characteristics of a group of people .


Countries have various kinds of culture ,the American ,African ,Asian ,European ,and of course ,there r also different in the countries in the continent itself.They have various viewpoints , has different aspects of viewing a Int'l affair ,so it's far from self-organizing the society itself . We have adopted huge amounts of Laws , disciplines ,and other rules to restrict the behaviour , but the Law also depends on the Economy , no economy , no development , and of course ,no conflict, but as I 've said , every nation has it's limitless desire to live better ,to live richer ,they should earn money , many sellers and many buyers ,they have to conflict each other ,then make progress.

I think when a society is really harmonious , then it's also the end of the world, that means ,it's about to collapse ,and then the cycle goes on .

I am not producing the negative opinion, I am just saying the truth of the society , there r many many other things that you can't see , I can't see the inside story of a plot behind HUJINGTAO and also you can't see them behind Putin and his future leader.

There was a time after the Cold War when I was optimistic about the world, when Clinton was president [although his sanctions against Iraq was a crime against humanity] and there was a lot of talk about the NPT and Kyoto. The UN seemed to be valued as the only entity representative of most of the world and wielded some clout. These days, the US is seeking to transform the UN into a rubber stamp for its own imperialist, hegemonic goals and Japan is signing on with Big Brother faster than you can say "sidekick". Of course the Americans loves Japan and supports its UNSC seat, historical accuracy be damned. After all, it's not the Americans who are at the receiving end of the whitewashing.

no offense

If one person has the greed , it's not terrible, but if a nation or a people have it , then it's just like the ultimate disaster.Instinct can be usually referred to the characteristics of a group of people

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this is called 'jumping to the conclusions'. More fair to say: every nation
has a greed, or not to base the judgementof the whole nation on the deeds
of single individuals or a group of individuals. And these are not instincts, just stereotypical patterns of human behavior

Countries have various kinds of culture ,the American ,African ,Asian ,
European ,and of course ,there r also different in the countries in the
continent itself.They have various viewpoints , has different aspects of
viewing a Int'l affair ,so it's far from self-organizing the society itself .

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to become self-organized system has to be diverse, has to consist of numerous 'particles' (sub-systems, co-systems)

We have adopted huge amounts of Laws , disciplines ,and other rules to
restrict the behaviour , but the Law also depends on the Economy , no economy , no development , and of course ,no conflict, but as I 've said, every nation has it's limitless desire to live better ,to live richer ,they should earn money , many sellers and many buyers ,they have to conflict each other ,then make progress.

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One more in a row of countless stereotypes
you won`t be surprised if i`ll tell you that there also exist other economical
models, besides current?
And btw, Nature doesn`t "lift more than it can" and doesn`t "eat more than
it should". Only humans. Maybe sometimes we should turn back to Nature, to
learn more?

I think when a society is really harmonious , then it's also the end of the world, that means ,it's about to collapse ,and then the cycle goes on .

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it will not be harmonious, nothing to worry Nature is rather violent.
So, in a way wars can be justified as certain means regulating population
growth. But can they be, on the other hand?

I am not producing the negative opinion, I am just saying the truth of the society , there r many many other things that you can't see , I can't see the inside story of a plot behind HUJINGTAO and also you can't see them behind Putin and his future leader.

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Geez, various ways, the one what will be chosen by a system depends on its
pre-history at the point of bifurcation. There are already few futurology`s
prognoses, some 'nice', some drastic

and btw, how can you measure, what i can see?

void said:

it will not be harmonious, nothing to worry Nature is rather violent.
So, in a way wars can be justified as certain means regulating population
growth. But can they be, on the other hand?

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You just tried to shift away from your original opinion , frankly , I don't know what you want to say , if you think the situation is bad now , could you use you knowledge or experience to comment further , just a few advices.

It seems limitless to go on and on .....

i am not trying to shift, adam. Just showing that there can be sort of biological-ecological explanations. And human society already is self-organising (from the global approach, it follows the laws of population ecology as part of a nature)
But as far as i know we posess some intelligence, and therefore are capable of finding a way without much violence, if we are not able to find a key to sustainable development and only to harmonious but 'empty' future, we should disappear as species or degrade rapidly. This is that simple.

Right now i think that some of the answers lay in that concept of 'information society'. This might be the first step. What are the next to follow? :?

Void, Adam W., read this to understand the madness we are facing today. I suppose Japan, always thinking of its own self-interest and dependancy on oil, takes the neo-con project seriously and has opted to be on the "right" side in coddling the new imperium.

(DV) Leupp: The Fascist View of Public Intellectuals

"I can only imagine that this ﾂ"shiftﾂ" doesn't refer to a movement within the Muslim world so much as to an audacious power-play of the U.S. as its economic position in the world declines. Muslims lose power in Southwest Asia; the U.S. acquires military bases, contracts, control of the flow of oil, and strategic advantages over Europe and China well into what some call the ﾂ"New American Century.ﾂ" (Compare the ﾂ"Thousand Year Reich.ﾂ") "

and this:

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp06202005.html

Back to the topic, here's something about the Japanese counterpart of the Bush neo-cons. The author has dissected the Koizumi government brilliantly:

atimes.com

"So now you have the dominance of [Japanese] neo-nationalist restorationists cum market fundamentalists, in parallel with the religiosity and market fundamentalism of the Bush regime. The lack of powerful critical voices within the LDP on the foreign-policy front is a genuine crisis.

As to the future, the more the Koizumi regime copies the Bushites and alienates this country from Asia, the worse the tensions will grow. The Taiwan issue and the uncertain fate of the China bubble among other challenges give ample reason for concern. One of the great ironies in all this is that the Koizumi people prate endlessly about national interests even as they ignore Japan's real national interest in strengthening Asian ties and promoting regional stability. Another is that the US has better options for recovering from its present dismal leadership and forging stronger bonds with China, as the Americans are more welcome and useful in the China market.


What should we, what Goebbels deemed "the unconvertible" do? To speak up of course, and not be intimidated. Under Koizumi, Japan's bid for the UNSC will accelerate the disaster that is the Neo-con project in the otherwise quiet Pacific. I will support Japan's bigger UN role only when its government decides to value its Asian alliance more than Bush's America, which is actively sabotaging it. When Americans elect a government that gives a damn about the state of the world and not just its own "strategic interests" and "global hegemony", then America is fit to assume the role of world leader. Otherwise, it's the Axis all over again, this time - US, Japan and Britain.

Well said, qwertyu.

I am just curious why ID : adam.won is banned from this community..

Also , sayonara , qwertyu ,GL

Don't know why, i don't fancy they can tell themselves. It's no intimidation anyhow. It's great loss for this forum to have lost such noble posters