Is Japan a Western country?

[Goldiegirl]

Wow, from what I've seen Japan certainly doesn't look destroyed.

 

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Huh? The inventor was Indian, so I am not quite sure how that would make it Western.

They were Aryan, so from present-day Ukraine. Genetic tests have somewhat proven the migration of the Aryans to India. We can see clear genetic similarities between Northern Indians and Eastern Europeans.

Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia - Wikipedia

 

[Han Chan]

They were Aryan, so from present-day Ukraine. Genetic tests have somewhat proven the migration of the Aryans to India.

The the migration theory have so far not been proven. Recent genetic studies show that there are some linkageges between different communities who live far from each other, but the idea of one Aryan race have been out of fashion since 1945.

The word Aryan have been tainted by the horrors of tha holocaust: Aryan - Wikipedia

Because of historical racist use of Aryan, and especially use of Aryan race in connection with the propaganda of Nazism, the word is sometimes avoided in the West as being tainted, in the same manner as the swastika symbol. Currently, India and Iran are the only countries to use the word Aryan in a demographic denomination.

 

[A ke bono kane kotto]

The the migration theory have so far not been proven. Recent genetic studies show that there are some linkageges between different communities who live far from each other, but the idea of one Aryan race have been out of fashion since 1945.
The word Aryan have been tainted by the horrors of tha holocaust: Aryan - Wikipedia

That's not the same meaning of Aryan. The Aryans are not the blond-haired Germans that Hitler talked about, but a prehistoric tribe of people from the Caucasus region. Germans and Celts are not Aryan. You should read history books rather than Mein Kampf.

 

[Han Chan]

That's not the same meaning of Aryan. The Aryans are not the blond-haired Germans that Hitler talked about, but a prehistoric tribe of people from the Caucasus region. Germans and Celts are not Aryan. You should read history books rather than Mein Kampf.

I am a Social Anthropologist with regional specialization in South Asia, and I do know what I am talking about.
You, on the other hand, seem to pick and choose your information, without understanding that you are actually building on some oldfashioned racial theories. It is good if your understanding is not based on Mein Kampf, but using a concept like Aryan makes you sound like someone who might - even if it was not your intention.

 

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am a Social Anthropologist with regional specialization in South Asia, and I do know what I am talking about.
You, on the other hand, seem to pick and choose your information, without understanding that you are actually building on some oldfashioned racial theories. It is good if your understanding is not based on Mein Kampf, but using a concept like Aryan makes you sound like someone who might - even if it was not your intention.

So you mean that Aryan is a taboo word, even if not used in the meaning used by the Nazi ? Does that please you better if I say Kurgan ? It's basically the same thing.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Why are there so many China towns around the world?
I don't know why the (some) Chinese people refuse to be assimilated into the society...

To try on your first question, possibly because where many Chinese people reside, their is a want for own goods, food, clothing, CD's, books, etc.

I know this applies to Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Middle Eastern cultures within Australia, although not limited to Australia only.

Second, I have found Japanese people in Australia do not assimilate at all, neither do African's.

On the other hand, I find that Chinese do very much so in Australia, and without any issues at all.. Thailand is another example where it is difficult to distinguish between the two cultures as they have actully bred over the years to be fully assimilated.

We have quite a few Chinese friends coming from both mainland China and Hong Kong. I can certainly point to some who have assimilated and some who have not, including between couples.. We have friends, he is from Hong Kong, she from China, she is having problems assimilating, whilst he has been here for 18 years and calls himself an Aussie.

Chinese in Australia go back since the beginning, and we have large communities who can not speak Chinese anymore..

Japanese on the other, have not assimilated at all In Thailand.

I can only speak for these two countires as I know them well.

Do Chinese assimilate within in Japan?

If yes or no, why do think?

 

[Han Chan]

Do Chinese assimilate within in Japan?

If yes or no, why do think?

I think that it would not be fair to generalize. On one hand you have China Town in Yokohama - which could indicate that Chinese do not integrate. On the other hand, you have so many Chinese women who marry Japanese men, and blend in by becoming "japanese housewifes".

 

[Rioneru]

East vs. West on a global scale!

Seems to be too much mixing of apples and oranges, concerning individual stances in contrast with one's region's affliation, ethnicity, historical socio/poli influence, etc. Sure, all of these things have played a factor in establishing the terms Westerner and Easterner; so much so, that a possible distinction that could've been made primarily on geography or cultural is now lost.

I would have to say Japan comes off to me as an Eastern country that has very much been Westernized. But, of course, if you were to talk to a Japanese person, they would not consider themselves apart of the "Western world". I've actually found a large amount of Japanese find themselves to be quite different from the rest in the world, with perspective. ☝

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Australian Sushi

But, of course, if you were to talk to a Japanese person, they would not consider themselves apart of the "Western world". I've actually found a large amount of Japanese find themselves to be quite different from the rest in the world, with perspective. ☝

That's a good point.

Not Asian, not Western but Japanese!

And would you believe we have Japanese Spaghetti for dinner tonight LOL.

I often tell Japanese that Australian Sushi is best!

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

I think that it would not be fair to generalize. On one hand you have China Town in Yokohama - which could indicate that Chinese do not integrate. On the other hand, you have so many Chinese women who marry Japanese men, and blend in by becoming "japanese housewifes".

I disagree with both your opinions.

Having China Town doesn't mean that Chinese don't assimilate into a country, afterall, Chinese food and goods are very common internationally in most counntries around the world.

I think everytown in Australia has a Chinese restaurant..

Having said that, I am still to hear from a Japanese person if Chinese people do actually assimilate.

We have an Australian Town in Australia which proves my point..

Chinese women who "become" Japanese housewives doesn't really make much sense either on assimilation..

 

[Dogen Z]

What a long thread for a simple question. Actually, Japan is a Northeast Asian country with a Confucian based society that has incorporated many Western elements.

 

[pipokun]

Desecration of historic site upsets Broome
Thursday, 16 June 2005
Gravesites attacked
Broome's multicultural community is upset at a vandalism attack on the historic Japanese cemetery.
http://www.abc.net.au/kimberley/stories/s1393851.htm

a Confucian based society

Vandalism like the above is what a tyical Confucian funamentalist did in Korea or China in the past.
And revolution is one of the key ideas in Confucianism, esp., Mencius, but we had a lucky legend that ships carrying Mencius documents had sunk.
(*snip* it might be an interesting topic if the Meiji Restoration was a revolution or not).

It seems to me that a great multicultrural country like Australia which, I think, is non-Confucian should introduce the regulation like the one in the US where you cannot be politically loud in graveyards, though I bet there must be some regulations there.

Anyways, Japan is a country where stupid anti-(whatever) activists are loud when it is sunny or rainy, so I do not know why the angry young Chinese people remain calm in China now.

 

[kireikoori]

I just recently decided to put the word "westerner" into wikipedia and it came up with the article "Western World". And it divided the use and meanings of Western into a few categories.

The historic West is originally the Mediterranean. Or in other words Greek and Roman culture. I guess Romans and Greeks were the first people to consider themselves Western. Which would make by this definition all people of Latin culture such as the French, Spanish, Mexicans, Brazilians, Portuguese and Italians more Western than Northern European Germanic people. Also this would make Turkey very Western because of being part of the Eastern Roman Empire.

Linguistically there's the Indo-European language family. And according to wikipedia, sometimes Hebrew as well. Because of the Abrahamic influence. Also there are Uralic languages spoken in Finland, Hungary and Estonia which are all considered part of the West.
_
Japanese is a language isolate. Nobody knows for sure which language family Japanese belongs to. Though there are strong possibilities out there strongly supported by certain linguists.
* That Japanese is an Altaic language, related to the many North Asian languages. And can be extended even if further if the Ural-Altaic hypothesis is correct. That would make Japanese related to Finnish, Estonian and Hungarian. Maybe not Indo-European, but Western nonetheless. Heck, there's also the idea that Ural-Altaic languages are proto-Indo-European.
* That Japanese is part of the Eurasiatic language family, and distantly a part of the Indo-European family.
* If you consider Hebrew to be Western because of Christianity, many users have exerted similarities between Hebrew language and Japanese, claiming Japanese are part of the lost tribes of Israel. Not a well supported hypothesis among linguists, however.

Economically, being a first world country is considered Western. Japan is very high on the HDI, definitely a first world country. Heck, the Yen just surpassed the US dollar.

Politically, democracy is considered Western. Japan has become a democracy and is very anti-Communist generally. Shedding off the Fascism shared with Germany during WWII. Both countries evolving into the current political definition of Western equally.

Many consider Judeo-Christian religion to be Western. Coincidental or not, some users here have drawn similarities between Shinto and Abrahamic/Judaic religion. Again with that whole "lost tribes of Israel" thing.

In the end the East vs. West thing is a false dichotomy though. There is no such thing truly.

 

[Sukotto]

this is sort of a response to some things in kireikoori's post.
i'm not trying to be critical, just discuss, so i apologize if anything
sounds harsh.

you forgot Italy as being fascist.
Mussolini and fascist are practically synonymous.
while Germany too was clearly fascist, "nazism", the localized brand, & reservations, err, excuse me -
concentration camps, come to mind more readily than the f word.
(can anybody point me in the direction of some good books on WW2 era Japan & fascism. while i don't really doubt this term would apply, i more often hear the term "Japanese militarism" coupled with imperialism applying to Japan. --those two are clearly points of fascism)



"western" & "democracy"

it is a commonly held belief that "democracy" is a "western" concept.
putting aside the idea that "western" is an ideological construct to begin with,

what about the known fact that the authors of the US constitution borrowed
heavily from the Iroquois Confederacy, a grouping of 6 of N America's First Nations.
such ideas and practices have existed pre-contact with Europeans.
also, in many tribes/nations throughout the americas, the chief was not really a position that was so dominant as to be the equivalent of a king. it was rather Europeans in their thinking and/or wanting to deal with one or a small number of people that helped to contribute to the importance of a chief. --and the stressing of hierarchy, as the first settlers (the Indians) had much more egalitarian societies.

Much of this is somewhat fresh in my memory as I recently read the relevant chapters of "Lies My Teacher Told Me Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong"
by James W. Loewen "First Thanksgiving" and especially "Red Eyes" (this page has excerpts from the original 1995 edition. i am currently reading the updated 2007 edition.)

the Americas are/were only really considered "western" with regards to being settled by western Europeans. So what of the ideas of the many (still alive and living) cultures indigenous to the Americas? They are not really considered "western" and their democracy existed completely independent of ancient Greece which is touted as the birth place of "western" thought and the idea of democracy.



jokes:
maybe we only like the idea of democracy, but fail to practice it?
is "western" thought actually the idea of tricking people into believing
they are practicing benign actions?
take for example the British empire(dishonor is empire). the rulers of this society
claimed they were colonizing India in order to "civilize" the peoples living there.



lastly,
interesting that some might have drawn comparisons "between Shinto and Abrahamic/Judaic religion". I've not heard of this before and would be interested in reading them. Admittedly, I am rather naive about Shinto, but I've always heard of it compared to animist religions (not counting the state co-opted version of the Emperor and Sun Goddess, etc...). Also, I believe all religions have wisdom in them and are about peace and getting along as evidenced by the many variations of "treat others as you would have them treat you" present in almost every religion/belief system. I'm writing this because I want to put it that I am not trying to "separate" Shinto from Abrahamic/Judaic religion by placing it with other religions in some sort of artificial hu-(M)an-made hierarchy, because I believe there is much to be learned from various religions/beliefs from throughout the world, including Africa, China, East Timor, etc...

I "talk" too much. Gomenasai.

 

[akita]

Well geographically Japan is in north -east Asia. I guess is normal not to consider them self western. Nevertheless is also where EU place this country. according to this standard they establish economical and political cooperation. Other north-east Asian countries are China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South/north Korea . Japan is part only of ASEM (Asia-Europe meeting) so I guess is here they place themself. All other regional agreement don't include Japan so they must consider themself an north -east Asian country.

 

[dongdong]

Japan is not a western country!! I don't think you can define it western simply because it is developped. Japan still has many, many eastern traditions as regular practice. I really don't even see a point to this debate.

That's exactly what I think too.

 

[Sukotto]

That's exactly what I think too.

yeah.
i too agree.

it's as if "the west", or European sprouted or transplanted societies invented technology.

or as i tried (probably miserably) to point out that the concepts behind the Greek-based word "democracy", historically only existed in societies usually associated with "the west". because we use a word that has roots in a "western" language, we are led to believe that a certain bit of human nature was invented by a specific small group of people.

 

[minime]

definitely not...
1) physically located in Asia, obviously the east part;
2) having culture similar to China, the typically eastern culture; and
3) being Asian human race
Even i don't care about whether or not Japan is a western country, emotionally. I have to say no...

 

[Proud Asian Kid]

So, does that mean that non-Christian European, Americans, etc. are not Westerners ? For instance, I have absolutely nothing to do with Christians values, moral and believes, nevertheless, I am a Westerner. Nowadays, a majority of young Europeans don't care about religion or are Christian just on paper (never attend church or far from convinced that the Bible is the Truth). Among these, about 5-10% of people are atheist. Then, countries like France or the UK have about 10% of their population that is Muslim. Eventhough they were born and raised in Europe, aren't these people Westerners ? What about Caucasians muslims (Serbs...) or converts ?

Then, whith the logic Western = Christian background (common history, values, morals, culture), Filipinos should be Westerners, as they are more fanatically Christian than most Europeans, have 500 years of colonial Christian history and are culturally more Spanish-American than Asian.

Same for the 25% of Koreans that are Christians. Are they Westerners ? If so, what about the 75% left, Buddhist or Atheist ?

Are Coptic Egyptian or Christian Syrian, Iraqi or Armenian Westerners because they share all the history, values, moral than Europeans ? Anyway, culturally, there a Syrian is probably as near of a Greek than a Greek from an Irish or Finn. Greeks share so much with Turkish that only the religion and language separate them. Greeks are the historical pillar of Western values (democracy, philosophy, reason, sciences...).

That brings us to the next point : Weren't Romans or Ancient Greeks Westerners ? If not, when can we talk for the first time of Western country ?

From what I see, you try hard to convince peoples at least who read your topic that Japan is a western country since you yourself badly wish to be Japanese while you can not change the fact that you are not Japanese or even Asian but a westerner who love to make fantasy about Japan.

But on topic, Japan IS Asian country with many facts such as =
- Japanese not calling themselves as westerner but as Asians
- Japan never participate on western only stuff such as on European football games but participate on Asian only stuff such as Asian Champion or ASIAN games, etc.
- Japan is located in Asia, not in the west.
- Japanese GENE and DNA are Asian DNA and GENE which makes Japanese, Chinese. Philippine or other Asian look alike and not look like westerner.
- Japanese culture is Asian based culture such as you will not see Japanese female topless on the beach unlike westerner females on the beach.

There are many other reasons but thuse are already enough to prove it.

 

[Proud Asian Kid]

yeah.
i too agree.
it's as if "the west", or European sprouted or transplanted societies invented technology.
or as i tried (probably miserably) to point out that the concepts behind the Greek-based word "democracy", historically only existed in societies usually associated with "the west". because we use a word that has roots in a "western" language, we are led to believe that a certain bit of human nature was invented by a specific small group of people.

Democracy in Japan are FORCED into Japan after 2 years of america nuke Japan in 1945, so it is not because of Japanese own free will, also the democracy in Japan is deferent than in other western country.

 

[kusojiji]

- Japan never participate on western only stuff such as on European football games but participate on Asian only stuff such as Asian Champion or ASIAN games, etc.

That is obviously not true and you are obviously an idiot.

democracy in Japan is deferent than in other western country.

How so, exactly?

 

[Yanzi]

Japan still has many eastern traditions as regular practice. So Japan is NOT a western nation, or at least that is my opinion.

 

[wsk]

Of course not, but I think the ideas of some people have been Europeanizationed.

 

[Nichiren]

Japan is a modern country in the east not in the west. Japan's cultural beliefs and system of thought are not western. It is eastern. However, the universal values of freedom, democracy and human rights just like in the west are deeply embedded in japanese society.