How much freedom do you give to your partner ?

[Brooker]

The bottom line is, no matter how much freedom you do or don't give your partner, they're going to do what they're going to do.

 

[Maciamo]

I'm just wondering one thing: if you guys seem to have so little in common why did you get married?

Have you never read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" or "Why men don't listen and women can't read maps" ? It's probably utopic (for me at least) to find someone who shares all one's interests. Should I be interested in nail arts and flower arrangements ? Should I expect her to be interested in linguistics, history, economics and webdesign ? We do have a lot in common in what really matters for people living together : same tastes in food, movies, travel, clothes, both like reading (sometimes the same books), etc. We get up and go to bed at times that are standard but that certainly match each other's lifestyle very well. Then there is both emotional and physical attraction, which are among the most important thing for a couple. The main differences are that she is very feminine in her mind (sociable, emotional, care about fashion and make up...), and I am very masculine (logical, rational, care about ideas and knowledge more than people and gossips, etc.)

CC1, as you are also married to a Japanese woman, are you saying that you too do not have similar differences as the ones I mentioned above ? If you are so similar, are you two more like me or my wife ?

 

[mad pierrot]

I think freedom is something that we all should have as individuals,

I agree, but reality differs.

and conversely, it is not something we can "dispense" to our spouses.

Here I disagree. Everyone does this to a degree. Think about it. Your husband knows that you don't want him doing certain things, so he doesn't do it. He does this out of respect for you, but it's still your wants/needs limiting his behavior. FYI of course this applies both ways.

 

[Bob in Iowa]

Your husband knows that you don't want him doing certain things, so he doesn't do it. He does this out of respect for you, but it's still your wants/needs limiting his behavior. FYI of course this applies both ways.

I think that the motivation for limiting one's behavior is more complex than that. Looking back on my own life, when my wife and I were in our 30's, we spent a lot of time apart from each other during the week in I spent at least two or three nights away from home on business, and she was a full time student at a Chiropractic college near our home. Given the separation and the socialization associated with both of our lives away from each other, there were many opportunities for each of us to be unfaithful.

I think what kept me on the straight and narrow path in those instances when there was an opportunity to stray, was being able to prioritize my feelings in a larger context than the immediate moment. By doing so, a feeling of not wanting to betray her trust in me, which encompassed a mixture of not wanting to hurt her and not wanting to endure a feeling of guilt for having done so, took precedence. Self respect is another factor involved in that compromising one's own ideal of self respect makes it more difficult to maintain individual harmony and peace of mind, which will ultimately affect the harmony of the relationship. Also, in a more selfish train of thought, my personal happiness was in large part a result of being in a loving, trusting, harmonious relationship, and I did not and still do not want to do anything to compromise that happiness.

I would have to say, therefore, that in a trusting, harmonious relationship, it is not only the wants of one person that limits the behavior of the other, but the shared desire for mutual trust and respect that dictates the behavior of both.

--Bob (putting my soapbox back under the desk)

 

[mad pierrot]

I would have to say, therefore, that in a trusting, harmonious relationship, it is not only the wants of one person that limits the behavior of the other, but the shared desire for mutual trust and respect that dictates the behavior of both.

No doubt! I did not mean to say it's wants that control a relationship exclusively; perhaps I should have put it a different way.

it is not only the wants of one person that limits the behavior of the other,

Of course! But I also think shared fear and want play a part. Let me try putting it this way: In my opinion, there are just as many negative as positive things that hold a relationship together.

 

[Apollo]

Wouldn't be even a bit jealous if your boyfriend/husband had some "romantic" face to face dinner in a French restaurant with another woman (which happens to be a very good friend), or if he went regularily to nightclubs with the same girls/women, or went to a karaoke all-night again with some other woman ?

Personally I already don't like seeing my wife dancing (salsa, etc.) with another man, even if I stand 2m from there (although I let her do, as she would complain that I am too possessive otherwise). Funny as I didn't use to be so jealous a few years ago (but I wasn't married). At the contrary, I didn't care much.

Nope, I wouldn't be jealous, because I trust my boyfriend. I am a tomboy myself and have many male friends, and my best (male) friend and I often go to the gym together, and my boyfriend trusts me completely, and don't have problems with it at all.
E.g. I went to my work's Christmas party yesterday, which was cool - and my boyfriend doesn't have problems with me dancing with other males, I work with.

 

[Brooker]

@Maciamo....
Addressing your concerns...
I had a girlfriend in college whose ex was in town and wanted to see her. Although I was more or less ok with it, it made me feel better that she acknowledged that this was kind of an awkward situation for me. She assured me that she was no longer interested in him, but they'd been close in the past and cared for eachother so she wanted to catch up with him. When he showed up I met him and doing so also made me feel a lot better because he seemed like a decent guy and I didn't get the vibe that he was trying to steal my girlfriend (you can usually tell).

So I would say that you should make an effort to meet these guys. It'll give you a chance to read the situation rather than just sitting at home and worrying about it. You may conclude that these guys are no threat to you or you may conclude otherwise and then you can figure out your next move from there. But at least you'll know. Also, I don't know how these things work in Japan, but it seems like she should acknowledge that this kind of thing might make you feel a little uncomfortable and take steps towards figuring out how to make you more comfortable and still allow her to see her friends.

I sometimes go out for dinner/drinks/karaoke/whatever with an ex girlfriend of mine who I dated many years ago. She has a boyfriend. I've met him several times and a few times we've all gone out together. I could tell he was a little unsure about me at first, but now it seems that he can tell that her and I are just friends and I'm not a threat to him. I've even told her that I think he's a good guy and I "approve" of him. And then there's other factors, like before they were going out, her and I took a roadtrip together where we were sleeping right next to eachother every night and nothing happened. He's gotta figure that if her and I haven't done anything by now that it just isn't going to happen because our relationship just isn't like that. But I don't blame him for being suspicious at first. My relationship with her is kind of unusual (like Elaine and Jerry on Seinfeld) but it is possible for men and women to have a friendship like that (even after dating) it just doesn't happen all the time.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

I'd Trust My Wife In.....

bed with a dozen nude Chipindales! We both will go to our graves having NEVER cheated.

Frank

 

[miu]

So what do you think ?

I can relate to your situation quite a bit, actually, because it sounds like my ex and I ^^; He was the quiet type and I was the one who likes dancing Maybe in that kind of a relationship it all boils down to being
able to compromise about things a lot. You need to understand that she needs to be around people and she needs to understand
that some of the stuff she does isn't all that okay with you...

If you try to cut out a lot of her time meeting people and she goes along with it, she starts expecting YOU to fill up the space, which you might
not be able to do (in the same way).
That's my experience and probably one of the major reasons why my ex and I split up. I just started looking for more and more attention because he was the only person I was able to get it from and he grew tired of
entertaining (and vice versa). The thing is, though, that I didn't expect him to be the most sociable person on earth and I wouldn't even have liked
him the way I did at all or loved him as much as I did if he was more of a player.

To me you don't sound like a really bad curfew officer, though, so maybe you should just try to tell her more about how much it bothers you that she spends so much time with other people. It's sad, though, that sometimes you need a really big blow to get the other person to realise how big of a problem soemthing is to you :/
I don't think your wife is being selfish or anything (on purpose anyway), she just maybe doesn't realise how deeply you feel about the situation. Maybe it's because you try to go along with it and she's having fun, so she's not exactly dying to reduce some of it... Well.. I don't know. Realtionships are just so hard @__@


Maybe all relationships just need a lot of effort and the amount of love you have gives you patience and willingness to try.

 

[Sally_Hawn]

Basically, I give my significant other all the freedom he wants, and I rarely asks him questions like, "Who did you go out with?" or "What did you do last night?"

 

[DoctorP]

Have you never read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" or "Why men don't listen and women can't read maps" ?

Yes, actually both of them.

Should I be interested in nail arts and flower arrangements?

Not unless you are gay!

Should I expect her to be interested in linguistics, history, economics and webdesign ?

Probably not.

We do have a lot in common in what really matters for people living together

That is good for you...it just seems that for someone who is so happy with what he has, you do an awful lot of complaining...or at least you suggest that you would like to make changes!

CC1, as you are also married to a Japanese woman, are you saying that you too do not have similar differences as the ones I mentioned above ? If you are so similar, are you two more like me or my wife ?

I didn't mean that you have to be exactly alike...I have seen couples like that and they usually annoy the crap out of me!

My wife and I are not all that alike. I get up early, she likes to stay up late and sleep late. I love golf and outdoors sports, she prefers other types of things such as decorating, gardening, etc... We love trying new resturants together, movies, the ocean, driving, horseback riding...

One question? Do you have children (I'm guessing no!) The reason I say this, is that usually once people have children, the clubbing scene gets a little old. She would still want to meet with friends, but it usually takes place in different areas...like play dates, group dinners, etc... (we usually go camping or on weekend getaways with other families now, since we don't do the club thing anymore)

I let her have her freedom...I'm not worried about anything, it is called trust! I actually play golf a few times a month with two very beautiful Japanese women and my wife doesn't mind at all. I would say that it is pretty hard to let your husband go out for 4-5 hours unsupervised with lovely ladies...esp in Japan where love hotels are everywhere, but she trusts me, and we both know that neither of us would do anything to wreck our marriage! I flirt all the time, but she actually loves it, because her friends are always telling here what a great husband she has and how much fun I am...

bottom line is no, you don't have to be identical, I just couldn't understand why you were letting this get to you so much...but I understand that everyone looks at situations differently. Sorry it took so long to respond, but this weekend has been especially difficult at work!

 

[TwistedMac]

Not unless you are gay!

OUCH! stereotype!

not all gay are interested in that stuff

...or so I've heard.

 

[DoctorP]

:sorry: true true...so sorry for that remark!

 

[ragedaddy]

I guess it is important to know your partner's values.... There are some people who think cheating isn't wrong, and others who feel it's something they'd never do. The 2 most critcal parts in a successful relationship are of course trust and communication. "Trust," is the foundation of almost every relationship, and without it things start to go astray. It is important to know how your partner feels about various things through communication. The more that you communicate, the more you develop a better understanding for that person. You can usually get a good sense of that person after being with each other for an extended period of time. You start to know what your partner would do and wouldn't do. It is most likely that you would be able to tell if they would even confess to doing something wrong from previous experiences that you have with that person.

I totally trust my wife to remain faithful when she goes out with others. I think most guys have a bigger problem of trusting the guys that their partner is going out with to various places (There are a lot of shady dudes that will go out of there way to get anything they want). Most of the guys that my wife was going out with when we were dating(before we got married) had a romantic interest with her, and this was a little unnerving to me sometimes. However, we talked about that issue, and after I felt better about it. Sure, she could have been talking and doing the opposite behind my back, but I knew she wouldn't do such a thing (Since I had a really good feeling of who she was as a person).

I myself don't have any desire to go out with ex-girlfriends. It's just kinda a weird concept for me, it seems like once a person gets rather intimate with a person then they can't to being friends (This is only my opinion). It is said there is a thin line between friends in lovers, and once you cross it you can't go back to being the same.

Therefore, I don't have a problem with my wife going out with male friends. I do have a problem with a dude that tries to pursue a girl that he knows is in a committed relatinship. It's like there are millions of single girls out there, so go find one that is free to date. This especially goes for someone who is supposed to be your friend, and they go behind your back and stab you with a knife. These people are dispicable, and I have no respect what-so-ever for these types of people.

 

[Maciamo]

I guess it is important to know your partner's values.... There are some people who think cheating isn't wrong, and others who feel it's something they'd never do.

I don't want to sound too cynical, but how do you really know if your partner is someone "who think cheating isn't wrong, or who feel it's something they'd never do" ? The problem with the first type is that as long as you don't find out, you won't know it if this person does not feel emotionally troubled about what they have done, justly because cheating isn't wrong for them (as long as their partner doesn't know). As this kind of people does not feel guilt, it is almost impossible to tell whether they cheated or not, unless you follow them everywhere and try to catch them red-handed.

Therefore, I don't have a problem with my wife going out with male friends. I do have a problem with a dude that tries to pursue a girl that he knows is in a committed relatinship. It's like there are millions of single girls out there, so go find one that is free to date. This especially goes for someone who is supposed to be your friend, and they go behind your back and stab you with a knife. These people are dispicable, and I have no respect what-so-ever for these types of people.

But what if your wife was the kind of guiltless person that you trust but cheats anyway without you knowning anything ? I am sure this has happens to millions of people in the world, and it could also be you (why should it only happen to others ?). So I guess you would also have "no respect what-so-ever" for these types of people who stab you in the back by abusing your trust. As there is little chance of you finding out, you could be married to a person who you trust and love and don't cheat on you, or to someone who you trust and love but cheats on you secretly and without guilt. In that latter case, he/she would be the most despicable kind of person who would never ever regain your trust in the future. That's a pretty sharp contrast.

The worst of all is that you or me or most people cannot be 100% about their partner, especially if that person is attractive, sociable and like having fun.
So I find that unconditional trust is like being sure of the existence of god or heaven in the afterdeath. It's a matter of believe, but that does not prove anything just because we believe in it. That leaves people (like me) who do not want to trust what cannot be proven 100% in the same angst as some people have wondering about the existence of god or the deep meaning of life. Especially when one thinks that people who cheat without guilt and don't get caught are also more likely to have unprotected sex with lots of different people because they lack a fundemental moral conscience or sense of responsibility.

That means that anyone who is not sure 100% of their partner's strong moral values, responsability toward others, fear of STD's, and complete trust, respect and love for you, has a risk of being cheated upon without their knowing it and thus risk noy just ending up broken hearted and disillusioned, but also dying from fatal STD's for having trusted the person they loved. And don't tell me this hasn't happened thousands of times in the world.

 

[Elizabeth]

Should I be interested in nail arts and flower arrangements ? Should I expect her to be interested in linguistics, history, economics and webdesign ? We do have a lot in common in what really matters for people living together : same tastes in food, movies, travel, clothes, both like reading (sometimes the same books), etc. We get up and go to bed at times that are standard but that certainly match each other's lifestyle very well. Then there is both emotional and physical attraction, which are among the most important thing for a couple. The main differences are that she is very feminine in her mind (sociable, emotional, care about fashion and make up...), and I am very masculine (logical, rational, care about ideas and knowledge more than people and gossips, etc.)

If this is the setup...then take the case of a Japanese couple (with these basically different interests and social orientations, if not quite as stark) in which after 20 or 30 years of a faithful marriage, although they are only sleeping together every 2 or 3 months, he unexpectedly meets a more 'masculine' woman with whom is compatible intellectually as well as emotionally and they begin an affair in the shadow of an unsuspecting wife.
Another scenario would be starting out with the sex and it later leading into a deeper friendship of soulmates based on their ability to talk on a variety of topics.
Are either of these no different than a libertine cheating indiscriminately with ex-girlfriends in the club most weekends and freely lying about it later or seeking out prostitutes at every available opportunity ?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think if there was something so missing from the marriage at the outset, besides sex, that an affair could be sustained and fulfilling, there is no way the 'other woman' can be blamed and when the wife does find out it is something for them to work out on their own. :sorry:

 

[Brooker]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think if there was something so missing from the marriage at the outset, besides sex, that an affair could be sustained and fulfilling, there is no way the 'other woman' can be blamed and when the wife does find out it is something for them to work out on their own. :sorry:

I completely disagree. When people have made a commitment to eachother, something lacking in that relationship is no justification to go looking for a way to "fulfill" yourself elsewhere. That's a very dangerous attitude and I think most people would want to avoid having a partner who thinks that way unless both of them don't mind that the other person is see someone else.

Maciamo wrote...

The worst of all is that you or me or most people cannot be 100% about their partner

But when you KNOW God exists, you know it 100% and no one can tell you differently. I think I'm a good enough judge of character that I'd be able to figure out what kinds of behavior my partner is capable of. I'm sure it happens to other people, but they're not me, and I have faith in my own judgement.

especially if that person is attractive, sociable and like having fun.

That really doesn't make any difference. Ugly and boring people cheat too.

 

[Elizabeth]

I completely disagree. When people have made a commitment to eachother, something lacking in that relationship is no justification to go looking for a way to "fulfill" yourself elsewhere. That's a very dangerous attitude and I think most people would want to avoid having a partner who thinks that way unless both of them don't mind that the other person is see someone else.

I don't think most people are consciously looking for an affair, most of the time it happens rather naturally -- obviously without their partners knowing enough to be able to avoid it or not. In fact, these feelings have often been suppressed for years and years until the 'right' (or 'nonthreatening' ?) person comes along.

 

[Brooker]

In fact, these feelings have often been suppressed for years and years until the 'right' (or 'nonthreatening' ?) person comes along.

An honest person will still be faithful to their husband/wife even if the "right" person comes along.

it happens rather naturally -- obviously without their partners knowing enough to be able to avoid it or not.

Hearing a sentiment like that is just one more reason to loose faith in marriage. Why bother getting married if that's how it's going to be? For money? For stability? I'd need a little more than that to marry someone. Like trust? Fidelity?

The sad thing is that a lot of people enter marriage thinking that way and not taking their vows seriously. Those people shouldn't get married.

 

[Bob in Iowa]

An honest person will still be faithful to their husband/wife even if the "right" person comes along.

Hearing a sentiment like that is just one more reason to loose faith in marriage. Why bother getting married if that's how it's going to be? For money? For stability? I'd need a little more than that to marry someone. Like trust? Fidelity?

The sad thing is that a lot of people enter marriage thinking that way and not taking their vows seriously. Those people shouldn't get married.

EXACTAMUNDO, Brooker !!!​

 

[Elizabeth]

Hearing a sentiment like that is just one more reason to loose faith in marriage. Why bother getting married if that's how it's going to be? For money? For stability? I'd need a little more than that to marry someone. Like trust? Fidelity?

The sad thing is that a lot of people enter marriage thinking that way and not taking their vows seriously. Those people shouldn't get married.

It isn't so much a matter of marriage as an institution per se the people in it.
If you can keep your wife happy and she stays an honest woman, that's great. If you're a Japanese couple to whom the worst thing imaginable is an argument with your spouse and the only way to show your discontent is refusing/disliking sex with them, then it doesn't necessarily mean your spouse is dishonest at all or shouldn't have gotten married. Simply that they are highly likely to cheat. In general, my sympathies error on the side of not knowing makes it alright -- but then I'm not coming from the perspective of marriage either....

 

[Brooker]

I don't know where to begin...

Elizabeth wrote...

If you can keep your wife happy and she stays an honest woman, that's great.

So keeping your wife honest is dependant on figuring out how to keep her happy? That's not honesty. "Keep me happy, OR ELSE."??? Following that logic, the cheating wife could blame the husband for her own actions because, "He forced her to do it by not paying enough attention to her," or something. What kind of Jerry Springer nonsence it that?

it doesn't necessarily mean your spouse is dishonest at all or shouldn't have gotten married. Simply that they are highly likely to cheat.

YES IT DOES!! If you cheat, you are dishonest, and you shouldn't have gotten married. Cheating is not an OK thing for married people to do. I don't know how else to say it. I just kind of thought people took that as a given. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I think more married people should try to live up to the rules they agreed to instead of trying to justify their actions or blame it on others when they break the rules.

my sympathies error on the side of not knowing makes it alright

That's a strange take on ethics. So, if you didn't know about the Holocaust, it didn't happen? The damage has been done, whether the other person knows about it or not.

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't know where to begin...
Maybe I'm idealistic, but I think more married people should try to live up to the rules they agreed to instead of trying to justify their actions or blame it on others when they break the rules.

Probably, but for the final time in this thread no amount of railing against it or living in a constant state of vigilance is going to change the actuality of many situations. Cheating on your spouse obviously isn't an ideal situation for anyone, I was simply trying to explain, from my own observations of Japanese life, why it happens so frequently (it may make life more bearable in certain ways for the infidel party and the other woman). And when it does inevitably go on, I think it can be better managed if the spouse doesn't find out.

 

[ragedaddy]

Orignally posted by Maciamo
I don't want to sound too cynical, but how do you really know if your partner is someone "who think cheating isn't wrong, or who feel it's something they'd never do" ? The problem with the first type is that as long as you don't find out, you won't know it if this person does not feel emotionally troubled about what they have done, justly because cheating isn't wrong for them (as long as their partner doesn't know). As this kind of people does not feel guilt, it is almost impossible to tell whether they cheated or not, unless you follow them everywhere and try to catch them red-handed.

Ok, maybe I can never know 100% that my wife will never cheat on me. I'm basing these beliefs on my own. I'm not a cheater, I don't believe in cheating, and that is how I was raised. My morals are obviously more strict than others, and I feel to me cheating is about the equivalent of commiting murder, it's that serious. This is just for me, if one of my friends happen to do this, I would not hold it against them. Yes, there is a plethora of people who don't think cheating is wrong. That is there choice, and they have to deal with the consequences that come around with it. I know that if I am able to posess these beliefs, there are others that feel the same way. I don't believe that if I cheat I'm going to hell or anything, but that is how I feel about the matter. My wife was raised Cathoic, and I guess you could say we share similar views and we also have different views. Sure it is impossible to know 100%, but at the same time it is not illogical to say through spending time together, and going into in depth chats about many aspects about life that you can't get a good sense of a person.

But what if your wife was the kind of guiltless person that you trust but cheats anyway without you knowning anything ? I am sure this has happens to millions of people in the world, and it could also be you (why should it only happen to others ?). So I guess you would also have "no respect what-so-ever" for these types of people who stab you in the back by abusing your trust. As there is little chance of you finding out, you could be married to a person who you trust and love and don't cheat on you, or to someone who you trust and love but cheats on you secretly and without guilt. In that latter case, he/she would be the most despicable kind of person who would never ever regain your trust in the future. That's a pretty sharp contrast.

The worst of all is that you or me or most people cannot be 100% about their partner, especially if that person is attractive, sociable and like having fun.
So I find that unconditional trust is like being sure of the existence of god or heaven in the afterdeath. It's a matter of believe, but that does not prove anything just because we believe in it. That leaves people (like me) who do not want to trust what cannot be proven 100% in the same angst as some people have wondering about the existence of god or the deep meaning of life. Especially when one thinks that people who cheat without guilt and don't get caught are also more likely to have unprotected sex with lots of different people because they lack a fundemental moral conscience or sense of responsibility.

That means that anyone who is not sure 100% of their partner's strong moral values, responsability toward others, fear of STD's, and complete trust, respect and love for you, has a risk of being cheated upon without their knowing it and thus risk noy just ending up broken hearted and disillusioned, but also dying from fatal STD's for having trusted the person they loved. And don't tell me this hasn't happened thousands of times in the world.

I guess if my wife is that guiltless person that is the chance I have to take. Nothing iin life is risk-free, and so you can't go around worrying about every little "What if" scenarios. That could drive a person to insanity, and so I can't be bothered with all those issues. I mean it's life what if I lose my job, and I can't provide for my family in the future, or what if get into a car accident and I don't survive. This is the bottom line I'm not one of these naive guys that is coming across, "Oh my wife would never cheat on me," because I can't say that won't happen. All I know is that I trust her, and I guess the rest is up to her. I mean if you can't trust a person, why get married? If you can't trust a person, would you become friends with them? I would seriously doubt anyone would want to get into that type of relationship.

You want to know why so many people cheat? The reason is that they shouldn't have got married in the first place, and now that they are trapped in this crappy relationship, it wouldn't be that hard for someone to offer that person a way out. I mean the likelihood that a happily married person would cheat is slim. However, if you look at someone who is constantly fighting with their partner, they can't ever get along, and they are unhappy with their lives then these are the people most likely to cheat. They go out and meet this new person, and it's like hey, why doesn't my spouse treat me like this. It's kinda like you're a little kid again, and you get this warm fuzzy feeling. Then you begin to realize that you deserve better than the life you are living right now. This is where the majority of cheating begins, and there are millions upon millions of people who commit these acts.

Therefore, you either can live in fear your whole life of whether you are going to contract HIV from your spouse, or you can actually trust that person then you guys know each other very well, and are happy with each other. The choice is up to you, and all I know is I'm happy where I am in life. That should be the most important thing of all.

 

[Maciamo]

I completely disagree. When people have made a commitment to eachother, something lacking in that relationship is no justification to go looking for a way to "fulfill" yourself elsewhere. That's a very dangerous attitude and I think most people would want to avoid having a partner who thinks that way unless both of them don't mind that the other person is see someone else.

Exactly how I see it.

But when you KNOW God exists, you know it 100% and no one can tell you differently.

That may be a matter of personality, but I cannot "know" something that I haven't experienced (like god).

I think I'm a good enough judge of character that I'd be able to figure out what kinds of behavior my partner is capable of. I'm sure it happens to other people, but they're not me, and I have faith in my own judgement.

But doesn't your judgement of other people's character (or moral values) depend on their social background and culture as well ? In my case I have more difficult to see through a Japanese because of the enormous cultural difference regarding morals and values. One of the most shocking thing I learnt about the Japanese mentality is that an action is not wrong as long as nobody knows about it. It can be true about lying, cheating, bribery, or even murder. As long as nobody finds out who might be shocked, saddened or damaged by, they consider that is it not wrong in itself. This is probably due to the lack of omniscient and omnipotent god in either Shinto or Buddhism.

That really doesn't make any difference. Ugly and boring people cheat too.

True, but the temptation (for others) or "risk" is lower. Beautiful people women will be more often targets of unscrupulous men who would try all they can to have sex with them even knowing they are married. If the woman also happens to go out a lot, especially with other men and in entertainment places like nightclubs, karaoke, bars, etc. the risk of getting drunk and meeting such unscrupulous men (or normal guys that just don't know she is in a relationship) is obviously much higher.

An honest person will still be faithful to their husband/wife even if the "right" person comes along.

By Western moral standards maybe, but what about Japan ?

Hearing a sentiment like that is just one more reason to loose faith in marriage. Why bother getting married if that's how it's going to be? For money? For stability?

Money and stability are two extremely important factors for Japanese women, enough for many of them to get married to people they have just met (and don't love) by o-miai. Half of the married Japanese I know in the 30ies got married by o-miai (arranged marriage). Among older people, the rate is even higher. See my article about marriage

So keeping your wife honest is dependant on figuring out how to keep her happy? That's not honesty. "Keep me happy, OR ELSE."??? Following that logic, the cheating wife could blame the husband for her own actions because, "He forced her to do it by not paying enough attention to her," or something.

That is exactly the kind of logic I have heard in Japan, be it on TV or from talking to people. It seems that most if not all Japanese women (or men too?) think like that. I asked my wife and she agrees too ! Do you understand my concern now ? :bikkuri:

I don't think happiness is dependent just on one's partner efforts to make you happy. I actually do not ask much from my wife. Sometimes I can't understand why she'd try so hard to please me, like spending hours cooking for me (even when she eats out with friends) or offering me expensive presents for no special occasions. I almost feel uncomfortable about it (esp. the presents) as I feel I have to give at least as much back to her, and I do not necessarily want to spend so much money on such presents (eg. clothes). I know that she wants me to always buy her presents, even small things like flowers or cakes or to show all the time that I care about her. But I am just not like this. I hate having to buy presents because I never know what to choose (esp. when it comes to women's clothes or jewelry !) as tastes differ so much from one person to another and I don't expect her to understand my tastes enough to buy things for me without me either (but she does it).

Unfortunately, "happiness" is often defined by money and material goods in Japan. This is one of the things I loathe in most in the Japanese mentality (too shallow !). For me, happiness depends on my personal achievements, on learning, self-developmement, understanding myself, people around me and how the world functions, and on not feeling the need for material possession (a bit like the Buddhist concept of "enlightenement").

In Japan, happiness is eating, drinking, sleeping, having sex and spending one's money. Not wonder that the Japanese are less happy than almost anybody else in the developed world (see this thread).

In other words, for me happiness cannot be bought and can hardly come from somebody else. I can be satisfied by eating well, having sex, discussing with people, or watching a good movie. But that is not happiness.

If you cheat, you are dishonest, and you shouldn't have gotten married. Cheating is not an OK thing for married people to do. I don't know how else to say it.

Then how can you explain all those married Japanese women in their 40's, 50's or even 60's who let their husbands go to prostitutes (soaplands) or even look for teenage girls (enjo kosai) and don't say anything because they are just not interested in sex and find it normal that a man should look for youg and beautiful girls, even if they could be their daughters and grand-daughters. That is called Japanese mindset. Otherwise I totally agree with you on how it "should be".

That's a strange take on ethics. So, if you didn't know about the Holocaust, it didn't happen? The damage has been done, whether the other person knows about it or not.

Ever wondered why there are so many nihilist in Japan for whom the Nanjing massacre and even the whole Empire of Japan atrocities never happened ? Even the (elected and re-elected) mayor of Tokyo does not mind saying so in public. Japanese mindset. If you don't know or other don't know, it just doesn't matter and cannot be wrong. Nothing to do with Western logics or morals.

Probably, but for the final time in this thread no amount of railing against it or living in a constant state of vigilance is going to change the actuality of many situations.

After reading all your posts in this thread, I now seriously wonder : "Are you Japanese ?"

If you can't trust a person, would you become friends with them? I would seriously doubt anyone would want to get into that type of relationship.

For me, things aren't usually black or white, but in thousands of shades in between. I guess you could try to estimate how much you trust someone (for various things, not just cheating, but reliability, keeping a secret, help you when you need it, etc.). What I am saying is that we can never trust someone (even oneself) 100%. I would say that in the best case scenarios, you can trust someone 90 or 95%, maybe even 99%. That doesn't mean you can't be friends with them. It doesn't even mean that your perception of how much you can trust that person is accurate. You could not trust someone who is actually very trustworthy, and vice versa.

You want to know why so many people cheat? The reason is that they shouldn't have got married in the first place, and now that they are trapped in this crappy relationship, it wouldn't be that hard for someone to offer that person a way out. I mean the likelihood that a happily married person would cheat is slim.

That only depends on one's moral code. As I said, there are people (not 0,001% but rather 20% or more) that do not see why cheating is wrong. My gradual understanding of the Japanese mentality led me to think that the number of Japanese people thinking like this is the norm rather than the exception (at least among young people). After quizzing lots of Japanese friends about this, I realised that some don't even see any problem with telling you "oh you know, I don't mind cheating on my partner. I love him/her, but as long as they don't kno and I don't hurt them, it can't be wrong". I have been told this many times, by both girls and men (some of whom are good friends). Japan is another world when it comes to morals.