How do non-religious people motivate that humans have a higher "value" than animals?

[SevenStarsHK2N]

I did not say that eating meat makes you a predator

but being a predator means you eat meat - because plants on the whole don't run away

also - monkey's tend to be predators - eating animals too whenever they get the chance.


and yea - wolves and bears will f-you up. don't think a little bit of noise is going to stop you, especially if they have no fear of humans because we don't kill them

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"But wolves and bears are not quite that populous anyway, and they run from packs of humans making noise, such as the noise of building fences."

Then they come back the next night to eat your goats, dogs, or chickens. Actually, people raising chickens on the edge of town here are having good results keeping even grizzlies away by using electric fences.

"Deer have been documented eating dead fish. That does not make them predators."

What about moose eating live voles? They will if they get the chance. Nice, small packet of calories beats the heck out of tree bark in winter.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 ----------

There have been some recent wolf attacks on humans here in AK and in Siberia.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I did not say that eating meat makes you a predator

It might not have been what you meant, but its what you said.

also - monkey's tend to be predators - eating animals too whenever they get the chance.

Chimpanzees hunt, but not very often. But they are apes, not monkeys. I don't know of any monkey that hunts.

and yea - wolves and bears will f-you up. don't think a little bit of noise is going to stop you, especially if they have no fear of humans because we don't kill them

You say the damnest things. Do you guess or get your information from movies? There is not a bear alive that has a recollection of a bear being hunted by a human as basis of fear, and precious few wolves. Bears fear humans because they are not used to us. We are not like anything in the forest.

But even when wolves were common in Europe and wolf attacks did happen, it was to people who were alone, generally at night.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Zorro, you should stick to something you know something about, like pedophilia.

A bear or wolf that has been shot at, wounded or missed, remembers being hunted.

Bears and wolves that see other bears and wolves shot remember it. Wolves that see other pack members trapped remember it too, and associate human scent with danger.

Cubs/pups are taught by mothers to fear humans in places that are hunted.

There is a big difference in wolves and bears in AK's national parks (no hunting allowed) and wilderness areas where hunting is allowed. Ride the bus into Denali National Park and you'll see wolves and bears right alongside the road, paying no attention to the gawking tourists. You're not likely to see them like that elsewhere.

You're under-rating the survival instinct and learning ability of large mammals. Even fish in a stream learn to beware the angler.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Zorro, you should stick to something you know something about, like pedophilia.

And you should refrain from childish ad hominem attacks you drag in from other threads for your bitterness. You might even grow up and apologize for saying such a stupid thing.

A bear or wolf that has been shot at, wounded or missed, remembers being hunted.

Okay, so 0.05 percent of all bears and wolves. Yes, I said too much when I said "no bear alive". Thanks for pointing out the 0.05 percent and making sure to attack me ruthlessly for that over-sight. This knowledge will surely be a massive boon for posters here, so of course you should spare no emotion in making the point. (sigh).

Bears and wolves that see other bears and wolves shot remember it.

That is why I did not include wolves in the statement, because they travel together and its more likely to happen. Bears are more solitary. But yes, I am sure this happened to 0.01 percent of all bears in the world, and they soon told their friends and family.

Wolves that see other pack members trapped remember it too, and associate human scent with danger.

Fair point. I just don't know why you think you have to go for the throat to make it.

Cubs/pups are taught by mothers to fear humans in places that are hunted.

Yes. They show them that Disney movie Bambi and make sure they are paying particular attention to the part where Bambi's mother gets shot.

There is a big difference in wolves and bears in AK's national parks (no hunting allowed) and wilderness areas where hunting is allowed. Ride the bus into Denali National Park and you'll see wolves and bears right alongside the road, paying no attention to the gawking tourists. You're not likely to see them like that elsewhere.

And there are more reasons for that than you realize. There is big difference between being startled on occasion by guys roaming silently through the woods and nearly upon you, and getting numb to being startled by groups of inattentive people off in the distance until you ignore them completely.

Here in Japan, there is little hunting but plenty of bear and boar. But you hardly ever see or hear about them. I mean you do, but its rare. People making noise tends to frighten them away, which is why its encouraged to be noisy when walking in the mountains.

You're under-rating the survival instinct and learning ability of large mammals. Even fish in a stream learn to beware the angler.

(sigh) Its hardly only humans trying to fish them and what fishermen offer them as bait is distinguishable from their usual meals because of that nylon line attached to it. Fish are not on the look-out for anglers. They see movement on shore, it might be a bear trying to get them.

---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:11 ----------

You're under-rating the survival instinct and learning ability of large mammals.

No I am not. Running from the strange is a good survival instinct and I am just saying that learning opportunities are few when it comes to wild animals learning to fear humans. Not non-existent. But few.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Don't get so upset just because I disputed your statement. Disagreeing with your words isn't ad hominem.

Your percentages are way off. Bears are tough animals, and quite a few of them carry hunters' bullets around inside them. Then again, many hunters aren't good shots, and only tend to educate the animals.

You'd be surprised at how quickly all game animals become aware of it when hunting season opens.

Incidentally, the most aggressive bears in Alaska are the inland grizzlies that live on the North Slope, both sides of the Brooks Range. This vast, barren area only gets a handful of visitors a year. The bears are known to charge people from a great distance. (Most bear charges elsewhere occur when the animal is surprised at close range.) The bears have never seen humans before and are used to considering anything that moves, except a larger bear, to be a likely meal.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Don't get so upset just because I disputed your statement.

Right, that must have been the problem. Man, do you think you are funny?

---------- Post added at 19:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:19 ----------

Your percentages are way off. Bears are tough animals, and quite a few of them carry hunters' bullets around inside them. Then again, many hunters aren't good shots, and only tend to educate the animals.

If Alaska were the world, I am sure you would be right. But I was speaking of the world, the real world, not your cold, isolated little corner of it.

You'd be surprised at how quickly all game animals become aware of it when hunting season opens.

Why? Are they deaf? They can't hear the gunshots?

 

[Macrobiotic]

If Alaska were the world, I am sure you would be right. But I was speaking of the world, the real world, not your cold, isolated little corner of it.

What a stupid comment. "Real world". I don't see what would be wrong with Alaska and disqualify it as a part of the real world. It seems like a nice place. Especially if you prefer nature and animals to people.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:24 ----------

But why is the choice to kill animals necessarily a bad one?

Things die - all animals will die eventually anyway - so why does it make a difference?

What would you say if I argued the same in terms of humans? They die eventually so why not kill the ones you have a good reason to kill? Like starving kids in Africa. They have no reason to keep existing. Why donate money to them? I hope they starve honestly, I donate money for animals instead. I donate automatically every month.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

What a stupid comment. "Real world". I don't see what would be wrong with Alaska and disqualify it as a part of the real world.

Alaska is a special place, in some ways good and in some ways, not so good. Alaska does not represent the world in any way. That is what I meant by "the real world" and also I am returning Roland's snide attitude in kind, which as you can plainly see he laid on me from out of the blue.

It seems like a nice place. Especially if you prefer nature and animals to people.

I guess you missed the part about the number of animals running around with bullet wounds.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Be cool-keep tempers in check.

View attachment 12051

Remember , not everyone will see things the way you do.

Uncle Frank

 

[Macrobiotic]

At least I kill my lettuce myself.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

I drive my wife nuts.

I grew up in a meat & potatos home. My dad hated vegatables , so I grew up not eating or liking them. My wife loves veggies and gets them fresh from the farm when possible. Shes tries so hard to get me to try them, but I can't break the old habbit of hating the sight or smell of them.I guess the ald saying about an old dog and new tricks covers me.

Uncle Frank

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Alaska is a special place, in some ways good and in some ways, not so good. Alaska does not represent the world in any way."

That's true in many ways, and we tend to be proud of it.

But you were talking about wolves and bears, and Alaska has more of both than the rest of the US put together. And my own personal experience with both in the wild (as opposed to watching Disney or Animal Planet programs on TV) is much greater than yours, if I may be allowed a wild guess.

 

[Hezam]

At least I kill my lettuce myself.

What a barbarian guy !

 

[Mark of Zorro]

But you were talking about wolves and bears, and Alaska has more of both than the rest of the US put together.

The U.S. does not represent the world either!

And my own personal experience with both in the wild (as opposed to watching Disney or Animal Planet programs on TV) is much greater than yours, if I may be allowed a wild guess.

Granted. I take your word for it on issues on Alaska that don't stray too far into the realm of pure opinion. But hey, I would take Sarah Palin's word as well, so don't think too much of that!

For example, when you said lots of animals are running around with bullet wounds in Alaska, I took your word on it.

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

I grew up in a meat & potatos home. My dad hated vegatables , so I grew up not eating or liking them.

I grew up with my Grandmother who hated mushrooms. But I love them!

I don't quite follow how your Dad's hatred became your own.

My wife loves veggies and gets them fresh from the farm when possible. Shes tries so hard to get me to try them, but I can't break the old habbit of hating the sight or smell of them.I guess the ald saying about an old dog and new tricks covers me.

I discovered fresh vegetables when I came to Japan. I always hated spinache until I came here, and realized it was a firm leafy vegetable. I had only seen it in a can before, and I figured they must have dredged in out of lakes, because it is nothing but mush in a can.

Now my patented spaghetti contains spinache leaves and stalks. I let them boil for only a very short time. When the spaghetti is done boiling, I throw in the spinache, then almost immediately put it all in the strainer. It might be nicer if I actually blanched them, but I am too lazy for that.

I used to hate peppers, but now I love them all.

Heck, I did not even like fruit much.

And when I went back to America to live for a while, I was so not impressed with the veggies at the supermarket. There was volume and low price, but the quality seemed to have been left down in the dirt where the veggies came from.

So I can imagine even the best your wife can get are not that great.

And its too bad, because you are cutting yourself off from a whole new world of experience and flavor, even if you eat them with the meat.

I went from a meat eater to a pescarian and almost a vegetarian, although life and not my choice has pushed me back. In that time I once ordered the vegan meal for a flight. I swear to you, it was the best airline food I ever ate, and I was not at all hot for vegan food I just wanted to avoid the meat.

 

[Hezam]

I only eat Chickens & fish meat, I grew up hating other meat, And i like vegetables especially tomatoes ( i would eat a whole farm of tomatoes O.O )...vegetables keep you young <-- i created this so don't count on it.

 

[BrianLewis]

Vegetables sure seem to have the edge in preventing many types of cancer. Broccoli, garlic and onions being the main ones that I know of.

There are also several diseases or disorders that certain types of meat cure, yet vegetables and fruit do poorly at. Seems like, if your body is set up for thriving on something, you shouldn't deny it. At least if you don't want to be deficient.

I know that many fruits contain vitamin C, which improves your immune system. Besides that, I know that the potassium in bananas can prevent and restore certain heart ailments.

Keeping personal observations and science in mind, it would seem like the most healthy course of action would be to follow the food pyramid.

 

[Macrobiotic]

Vegetables sure seem to have the edge in preventing many types of cancer. Broccoli, garlic and onions being the main ones that I know of.

I don't really see what meat could give which would be more beneficial than damaging. It is well known excess protein, especially high grade animal protein, is more than a human body needs and will increase cell growth and risk of cancer. A lot of heavy meat eaters seem to die of colon cancer eventually.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

I grow a lot of cool-weather-tolerant plants in my garden in summer, mainly to please my Japanese wife. Snow peas, spinach, carrots, onions, broccoli, cabbage, zucchini. I've managed to grow a few cucumbers in planters on the south side of the house. Strawberries in late June, July, raspberries in August.

Lots of wild blueberries on the mountain-sides in late August. I used to stuff myself with them while climbing, back in the days when my knees were still fit for hunting Dall sheep.

I love home-grown tomatoes, but you need a greenhouse to grow them at this latitude (61 degrees N).

 

[BrianLewis]

Anything in excess will harm the body, that doesn't mean meat is bad. I eat it once or twice a week, and that seems to be what is recommended by professionals. The people causing problems are the ones that eat bacon, sausage and hamburgers on a daily basis. Meat eaters are not likely to become anemic or lethargic and have better muscle retention. Your internal organs are muscles too - that's why people with anorexia usually die of heart failure.

 

[Macrobiotic]

I don't think vegans necessarily risk anemia. I consume sea weed as well as a glass of barley grass every day. Barley grass contains more iron than meat and 25 times more calcium than milk and is on top of that highly alkalizing, making the blood less sour. A small glass covers my daily needs of many things otherwise hard to get on a vegan diet.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Anything in excess will harm the body, that doesn't mean meat is bad. I eat it once or twice a week, and that seems to be what is recommended by professionals.

I cannot say that meat once or twice a week is bad. Nor can I say its good. But I think most Americans are at more like twice a day.

The people causing problems are the ones that eat bacon, sausage and hamburgers on a daily basis.

Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "problem". I do believe that a basically no meat diet, correctly done, can extend your life well beyond average. But average would usually not be called a "problem" depending on how long a person really wants to live.

Meat eaters are not likely to become anemic or lethargic and have better muscle retention.

If a vegetarian is doing it wrong, yes they will have problems (what is muscle retention?). I once knew a girl who claimed to be a veggie. I asked her what she ate. She said mostly toast.

Personally I don't think stupid meat-eaters, stupid veggies and stupid vegans should ever make it into the equation of what is good and what is bad. Stupid is pretty much always bad, no?

All that said, when I was an egg eating pescatarian, I never felt more energetic! I did not lose any weight, but I felt ten pounds lighter!

Your internal organs are muscles too - that's why people with anorexia usually die of heart failure.

Again, the stupid ones should not count.

I did a lot of research before giving up meat. And one of the first things I realized is that nutritional science is EXTREMELY complicated and people take it for granted. Meat amounts to an easy shortcut, but one is better off actually having a balanced diet, and you can do that without meat. And that goes double since they pump livestock full of growth hormones, antibiotics (because of the unsanitary conditions of factory farms) and steroids.

So do you have any links to what you claim about about vegetarianism causing problems like anorexia? And does that link omit the stupid people from its findings?

 

[Macrobiotic]

I used to be an egg eating pescetarian but I built more muscle than I needed that way and my connective tissue became harder, I usually had headaches after a meal and I became like drugged for two-three hours afterwards having problems focusing. Ever since I switched over to pressure cooked whole grains (I really mean whole, like whole oats, hulled barley etc), brown rice, boiled veggies, nuts, beans and miso etc I never feel this way, I just feel energized within 15-30 minutes.

In the industrialized world today many depend on medicine rather than food. They see no cause and effect relation between high blood pressure and other health issues and their diet of bacon, white flour, sugar, trance fats and alcohol. They just go to the doctor, get a prescription and then feel sorry for themselves and comfort eat some more because they have high blood pressure, *sob sob*.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

How do non-religious people motivate that humans have a higher "value" than animals?

I am interpreting this as "How do atheists and agnostics justify the concept that humans have a higher value than animals?" Is that correct?

 

[Macrobiotic]

I am interpreting this as "How do atheists and agnostics justify the concept that humans have a higher value than animals?" Is that correct?

Yes, that's how I intended it. Although I care for animals more than for humans, this came to mind more because of how tired I am of people freaking out about things like genocide or starving children in Africa but willingly eating industrially slaughtered meat and passively condoning animal abuse in various ways. I wanted to make people try to motivate why children in Africa are sacred (how can anything be sacred to an atheist?) while animals are not. What is the determining factor placing human value above that of animals if there's no God deciding the value of things.

I have met many humans who I would personally consider below animals and gladly pack together in death camps. It's almost an insult, no it is an insult, to ask of me to respect the "value" of these humans more than the value of animals. I also motivated why animals are more valuable, because they are innocent and lack the ability to engage in moral or intellectual reasoning.

So far the replies range from "I'm not stupid of course I know the difference between a pig and human" to "I care more for my own kind" to "on top of the food chain = entitled and privileged etc" and only the first and second alternatives here even come close to something resembling a moral reasoning which admits humans should simply be more valuable because of some social, antropocentric logic.