Could you (or could you not) care less about this thread?

[made of stone]

As an English teacher, it's always a great joy to learn more about our language and its many nuances, and I'd like to ask about something that I've noticed quite a lot while i've been using the internet.

In the UK, (as a whole I think, and certainly in England) we say:

'I couldn't care less about X'* to mean that we care as little as possible, i.e. we don't care at all.

Many times, though, i've seen (with the same intended meaning):

'I could care less about X.'

To me this sounds strange, and also logically it is strange. It doesn't mean 'I care nothing about...' It means 'I care something about...'

Now this is in no way a British English vs US English superiority issue whatsoever, but I have noticed that a lot of the posters who say 'could care' are not from the UK, so I do wonder:

1) Is it an 'Americanisation' perhaps? Is it universal in use outside the UK (correction: England, at least)? If so, how do you see the phrase working in a logical fashion to mean exactly the same as the UK one?

2) For Japanese or other foreign learners of English, which do you use or recognise/understand? Do you also see any logical difference in meaning? Do you think you'd catch the difference in sound if you heard?

Many thanks for indulging my love of the international use of English!





* For English learners I just want to add that instead of 'about' we might also use the following words, and perhaps more, for variation in meaning: for, how, why, who, what, when, where, whether.

 

[MeAndroo]

"Couldn't care less" is the proper saying, and those in the US who don't use it are simply wrong. Unless they truly mean to say it's possible for them to care less about said topic.

It certainly isn't the first example of native English speakers using popular phrases incorrectly, but is more annoying than an improperly used idiom because it's a logical statement as opposed to a nebulous one, i.e. saying "if I had a nickel..."

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

I agree. I have never seen this useage before, and anybody using it deserves a swift kick in the gluteus maximus. I don't know why anybody would use this statement. It seems completely illogical to me, but then again, so does, "same difference," and many people use that phrase. They all make no sense. It just seems to be the way the English Language is shaping up. We're becoming nonsensical babbling fools! Ok... maybe not that drastic...

[edit]

Could it possibly be a sarcastic phrase? Like if somebody spoke to me about football, I'd be saying, "Well... I COULD care less, but it would take a lot of effort to care less than I do right now." That's just how I'd use it if I was ever going to.

 

[nice gaijin]

"same difference" is an oxymoron, while "could care less" is simply used inappropriately in situations when the opposite is intended.

 

[Anohito]

The formulation "could care less" is (here it comes!) careless! (rimshot) It is not universal in the US. There are formulations that bother me more, such as using the word "literally" when "figuratively" is clearly meant, such as, of someone who loses his temper, "The guy literally exploded!"

 

[Elizabeth]

Could it possibly be a sarcastic phrase? Like if somebody spoke to me about football, I'd be saying, "Well... I COULD care less, but it would take a lot of effort to care less than I do right now." That's just how I'd use it if I was ever going to.

Tell me about it ! (NOT) It's obviously sarcastic to those who have never heard or said this nonsensically Americanized bit of British English.

At least speaking for myself, I always use a straight tone for "couldn't care less" and without even consciously thinking of it, a much more scornful or contemptuous stress pattern for "could care less." It's the general distinction Americans who aren't misusing it carelessly use to make their meaning intention perfectly clear.

 

[JimmySeal]

My rage meter goes up every time I hear the expression "I could care less." Most people don't use it with a sarcastic tone, but rather say it as though it had the meaning that "I couldn't care less" actually does.

A few other obnoxious illogical expressions that annoy me to no end are "irregardless" and "The exception that proves the rule (this rule has an exception so it must be true)."

 

[Mars Man]

Oh yes...I go with the above comments. At the same time, however, I think I could see how a pragmatic expert could smooth over the roughness of the actual words, and make the expression valuable enough to stick.

AND...whether directly so or not, thanks for opening a new thread here, to cover over the old closed one that had been sitting there on the main page for so long. I had been thinking up a new thread to do that very thing, just yesterday, in fact. Nice going !! MM

 

[Davey]

I couldn't care less.

I still have a lot of things to learn, regarding the English language (and many more things). I have never learned about this matter on Highschool, I believe, so I will remember it for the next time.

(ahum, please read my signature)

 

[made of stone]

Many thanks for your answers - interesting reading indeed!

It seems so far that even American-born native speakers disagree on this. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but some see it as incorrect or lazy, while others like Elizabeth use it quite carefully (and with a scornful tone) for special effect.

I wonder exactly what it means when used sarcastically like this? Does it mean the same as 'couldn't care less' and is just somehow a more dramatic way of saying it?

I just looked it up on answers.com and the entry quite surprised me. I can say that I have never knowingly once heard or read 'could care less' from a British English speaker. Of course, I can't rule it that it's possible, but it's certainly not as common as implied here! Perhaps this merely underlines the dangers of using certain online reference materials?

couldn't care less

Also, could care less. Be completely indifferent. For example, Pick whatever dessert you want; I couldn't care less, or I could care less about the editor's opinion. This expression originated about 1940 in Britain and for a time invariably used couldn't. About 1960 could was occasionally substituted, and today both versions are used with approximately equal frequency, despite their being antonyms.

JimmySeal, I hear you about 'irregardless'. Grrrr.

Mars Man, I'm very glad to hear my thread had an unintended added benefit

Dutch Baka, so you couldn't care less about my thread eh? Good on you, you've picked up the expression rather well!

 

[Glenn]

They both mean the same thing to me. I'm not usually dissecting what someone is saying logically when they say something like that. In fact, I think I probably use "could care less" perhaps exclusively.

Good on you...

Learning languages sure is hard. I was just thinking that a little while ago after seeing a non-native speaker use a preposition in a strange way, and then here I see you using one in a way that sounds very strange to me. I would invariably say "good for you" here, and never "good on you." It must really be rough for learners of English to say something and then be corrected by a native speaker who finds something extremely odd, while the learner who said it was merely copying a native speaker who finds the same phrase perfectly natural and perhaps preferred.

 

[Elizabeth]

I just looked it up on answers.com and the entry quite surprised me. I can say that I have never knowingly once heard or read 'could care less' from a British English speaker. Of course, I can't rule it that it's possible, but it's certainly not as common as implied here! Perhaps this merely underlines the dangers of using certain online reference materials?

Only online references compiled by Americans, perhaps !
"Could care less" can certainly sound more derisive although I usually try to soften it too with a bit of explanation (Should I be using Firefox or Explorer ? As long as you can read my email, I could care less what browser you use). "I couldn't care less" on the other hand is perfectly fine in the same response as a stand alone phrase. Probably coming around out about even in the end.

"Good on you" makes even less sense from an American's perspective since what you're talking about is presumably to be beneficial for the person...
"on you" is literally what it says -- on your person -- for wearing a suitable set of clothes or an appropriate smelling perfume .

And just a heads up if you ever do hear it by a native, with a drop in pitch on the "you," "Good for you !" almost always signals the speaker is inverting it to a snide, sarcastic remark. They are envious or resentful of your positive news.
Is it the same for "good on you?" :?

 

[made of stone]

I couldn't agree more Glenn, learning languages can be very challenging!

'Good on you' is Australian English - I worked with a few Aussie teachers in Japan who said it all the time. You're right, it means the same as 'good for you' in US or British English, which is what i'd normally say myself. It can also be used like 'thanks' when someone's done something for you.

Btw, the 'you' is usually pronounced 'yer' and the phrase is quite happily followed by 'mate'

And just a heads up if you ever do hear it by a native, with a drop in pitch on the "you," "Good for you !" almost always signals the speaker is inverting it to a snide, sarcastic remark. They are envious or resentful of your positive news.
Is it the same for "good on you?"

We don't really use 'good for you' sarcastically here in the UK, but it is possible in so far as almost anything can be said in such a manner. A drop in pitch is possible here even when it's used in a positive way.
We would need an Aussie to tell us if it's common for 'good on you' to be used negatively, though my feeling is that's it's usually just a positive thing.

Going back to 'couldn't/could care less', the Cambridge online dictionary lists both as meaning the same in the US ('could' care is only found in the American dictionary there) and it doesn't say anything about the distinction. Another less than perfect source of online info!

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

We don't really use 'good for you' sarcastically here in the UK,

I do. In a, "I couldn't care less," sort of way. A lot of phrases can be used sarcastically, that is one of the main ones I use. I'm just a bizzare person, I suppose.

 

[made of stone]

I do. In a, "I couldn't care less," sort of way. A lot of phrases can be used sarcastically, that is one of the main ones I use. I'm just a bizzare person, I suppose.

Personal foibles aside, I stand by what I said!

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Good point. Maybe it is just a personal choice... after all, I am the only person I know that actually uses the phrase... so maybe it's just me.

 

[made of stone]

Good point. Maybe it is just a personal choice... after all, I am the only person I know that actually uses the phrase... so maybe it's just me.

Kiire_Maiden, I hope my reply didn't sound rude at all - it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but reading it back it seems a bit harsh, and that wasn't my intention at all. We all have our own unique manners of speech, which can be as interesting as the 'correct' way of saying things, I think, and are just as worthy of discussion.

Anyway, now that the 'could('nt)' mystery appears to be more or less settled, perhaps those that want to can use this thread for other questions about the different forms of English found around the world?

After you!

 

[Anohito]

Well, there is an expression I used to hear in the Philippines when Filipinos were speaking English. I do not recall hearing it used anywhere else. I call it the "be the one" formulation. I got the impression that it was used when there had been some discussion or doubt about who would do something, even if very minor. Instead of saying "I will go to the market place for ..." somebody would probably say "I will be the one to go to the market place for..." There are (were?) probably other reasons for using the expression, and it might not be common throughout the Philippines.

 

[Kinsao]

I sometimes use "Good for you" in a sarcastic/snide kind of way, but usually prefaced by "Well", and to friends or people I get on quite well with in a kind of sarky-friendly way if you get what I mean. Like if someone is telling me they've got the afternoon of work or something, and I haven't.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Kiire_Maiden, I hope my reply didn't sound rude at all

It didn't sound ruse, I understood what you meant.

Instead of saying "I will go to the market place for ..." somebody would probably say "I will be the one to go to the market place for..."

I haven't heard this one, could it mean that somebody will be the one to go in a group of people? Like if you're arranging a party, "Will you be the one to get the alcohol?" Something like that. Otherwise, I have no idea why this might be used.

 

[storeyinallinanyways]

Well, there is an expression I used to hear in the Philippines when Filipinos were speaking English. I do not recall hearing it used anywhere else. I call it the "be the one" formulation. I got the impression that it was used when there had been some discussion or doubt about who would do something, even if very minor. Instead of saying "I will go to the market place for ..." somebody would probably say "I will be the one to go to the market place for..." There are (were?) probably other reasons for using the expression, and it might not be common throughout the Philippines.

It could just be the direct translation of the phrase from Filipino which is longer than necessary / sometimes may not make sense.

You'll see this in a lot of languages.

e.g. Irish - the following phrase means "I go to work every day"

Teim gach la ag obair

"Teim" means "I go" (the present continuous form of the verb Teigh = to go) but the actual direct translation is "I do be going", which you would never say in English.

The same anomaly happens with quite a few verbs in Irish when conjugated in the present continuous form.

Maybe your example above is similar...?

 

[tampopo]

I agree with storyinallinanyways about the anomolies. I agree with her explanation too.

Kirie Maiden, I use that 'good for you' in a sarcastic way too, I'm sure it's quite common,made of stone.

One thing that puzzled me in North America,...in the good on you theme, was when someone would say enthusiastically " way to go!" and I was so confused. Which way to go? Left or right, What way is the right way to go?
What is that 'way to go' phrase? I just don't get it, still.

Edit here.
When I lived in San Francisco, I met lots of Japanese people, just at the end of my time there, I had this phrase for practicing Japanese speakers. It's a take on the old VW Golf tv ad that was shown in the '80's. Anyway it helped practice rolling the r's and l's.

You're such a reliable bullshitter, you're unbelievable.

that's it.

 

[Glenn]

I can't break it down for you, but "way to go!" basically means "good job!" I'd guess it comes from "that's the way to go!" which would basically be saying that you did what you were supposed to do.

 

[tampopo]

Glenn,

yeah, I suppose so. But you can my puzzlement when it was said in front of me the first time! what, ah no, I was young and polite at the time. Didn't make one iota of sense, except for the context, but the origins....hmmm.

thanks

yeah, it was at a local ice rink in rural Ontario. A mother yelled it at her young son when he'd scored a goal or something...I think it was my first trip abroad too,!!!

 

[made of stone]

Kirie Maiden, I use that 'good for you' in a sarcastic way too, I'm sure it's quite common,made of stone.

Fascinating stuff, and I quite agree - it must be far more common than I ever thought tampopo! I still stand by what I said (and am still welcome of further correction ) but I think it can be used sarcastically in the same way as anything can be used sarcastically, rather than it being a special, defined, or especially popular use of 'good for you'. :?

I must say I don't really recall hearing it used that way, even by friends from different parts of Britain (I haven't had the pleasure of meeting very many Irish yet alas) and from the US, Canada or Oz. I can only think that my 'sarcasm' antenna hasn't been finely tuned enough in the past, and will endeavour to tune it up a few cranks!

Needless to say, i'm dying now to hear this phrase used like that, and I shall post back here when i've done so, and try to answer Elizabeth's question about the intonation (or perhaps someone else will be kind enough to first?)

Anohito san, in addition to the excellent ideas already given, your example of "I will be the one to go to the market place for..." sounds quite formal and rather old-fashioned in its complexity. It's something my Grandma would have said, if we had all discussed who would go, and finally she made a decision. (She prided herself on her 'correct English' bless her )

This might be because the English language teaching in the Philippines hasn't quite caught up with the present-day variety spoken in native countries; one reason might be that they're still using very old English textbooks over there.

It could also be the same as a foreigner who's learnt formal Japanese, and is greeted with looks of utter surprise over there at his or her speech. The opposite situation: a few of my Japanese friends try to use 'whom' in their written English, when a native speaker wouldn't anymore.

This thread's developing very nicely, thanks to all - I certainly couldn't care any more for this discussion!