Can you ever get truly "close" to someone who is Japanese?

[Maciamo]

There was this girl I used to like, now we are just friends, even though we have known each other for 5 years now.. and STILL there is a wall. We are just party friends, act buddy buddy and drink/smoke/dine together but... when it comes to anything that is actually deep, meaningful, and personal.. BAM! Wall...

I can see 2 explanations to that.

1) Japanese expect others to guess their feelings. They won't try to explain in a rational way how they feel, because most of the time, they are incapable of it.

In Japan, it seems that even the way people feel in a given situation has been harmonized, so once you understand how a few Japanese feel, it works for others too. Interestingly, Japanese think emotion guessing is universal, so even my wife think she knows what I want, what I like or how I feel, but she is wrong over half of the time. I might be a particularily difficult person to read through, but there is also the cultural difference AND gender difference (women are more emotional). It seems to me that Japanese people have more straightforward emotions like love, hate, joy, fear... but mine are never so distinct. It's often an amalgalm of various raw emotions, logic and rationalized emotions (that is, emotions created by reasoning).

2) It could be that the average Japanese do not have such deep feelings (how try to restrict them ??). I see with my wife, in-laws and friends that their every concerns are very simple (eat, get money, sex, hot bath...). It is very deeply rooted in their mentality. Even when travelling, most Japanese only care about food, beaches or shopping. The best way to see in is opening a Japanese guide-book, which is very detailed for food and massage, but the culture, history, economy, politics, arts and religion sections, indispensable parts of any Lonely Planet, Rough Guide or Let's Go guidebook, is so-to-say absent of similar Japanese guidebooks (like the yellow 地球の歩き方). My point is, most Japanese are satisfied with drinking, eating, smoking and chatting with their friends, and do not see the need to discuss more meaningful things, be it reflecting on their life, discuss politics, or analyze the latest literary publications.

 

[Emoni]

I can almost understand number 1. But I don't think I could ever make myself believe number 2...

 

[remember_august]

"I don't have any japanese friend, but I think if we can be friends to other people, we could be friends to japanese ppl ^^"said under dumb little mackie ^^

 

[Jean-Francois]

I have noticed that in Japan, even between "friends" (or "best-friends" !) it is considered normal to pay for the services they do for you, as if they were strangers.

Children are also expected to pay some very expensive presents to their parents around 20 years old, to (partly) pay back what they have spent for their upbringing.

inter-personal relations in Japan are based mainly on money

If this is true, I think I should seriously consider learning Japanese and move to Japan one day, especially when I have children. Hmmm... no wonder I get along with Japanese people so well... Great minds really think alike! And I never try to understand them. For what?

 

[cricket]

Hmmm,have to agree with Maciamo's comments. I have many Japanese
friends and really some close ones,but my best friend is a Korean born and
bred in China,now married to a Japanese and living here.

Hara watte,hanasou. The Japanese use this phrase a lot but no comparison
with the real thing.I think it has something to do with culture/kokumin sei.

My Chinese friend,by the way,is going back to China and will try to reestablish
herself again there.She was a doctor there but can't practice her profession
here.She came here seven years ago and now she's going back,citing work,family and loneliness. She doesn't have a kid with her Japanese
husband.

 

[Kana_Star]

I've gotten the closest you can get to them: A boyfriend and future husband.





:gohan:

 

[Jean-Francois]

Many of my J-friends kept saying that they were lonely too. I usually just ignored what they said because I thought they were just saying it out of boredom. One J-friend got so lonely that she had to come to my apartment and listened to "Can you celebrate?" fifty times a night.

I was just kidding when I said I would move to Japan. But seriously, I don't find J-people difficult to get close. Actually the ones I knew were pretty straight-forward with their feelings.

In this forum, many people wrote something like "Japanese people are passive" which was different from what I had experienced. There were two J-girls living in my building and they would take the first move to talk to me and ask me to go sing Karaoke at the Japanese Cultural Center (or something like that) with them. (But I didn't go because of personal reasons). And when I went to this store two months ago, one Japanese salesgirl gave me her phone number and told me to call her when I go to Niagara Fall next time. (Well, I am a frequent customer...)

All of them are trying to practise their English? Or they just want to make friends?

 

[Kana_Star]

I find j-people easy to talk to. They are really open with their feeling and they are really cool. I think what you need are new j-friends.

 

[Elizabeth]

I can almost understand number 1. But I don't think I could ever make myself believe number 2...

I dare say if I were a Japanese man working 80-85 hour weeks or his wife at home with the kids all day I wouldn't be spending my two week vacation talking politics, religion or literature either....Or putting a lot of thought/ reading into analyzing my foreign friend's emotional state for that matter.
:sorry: For Japanese-Japanese there is a tendancy of course to paper over unpleasant episodes or emotions in a relationship and put on a veneer which may be stressful to maintain at times and may aggrevate this sense of loneliness, inauthenticity or alienation. The ones I've known well tend to be much more sensitive and interested in knowing my thoughts and feelings than might be apparent in the beginning, although they expect respect and appropriate behavior from me certainly as a basis for this -- not being given to "waiting out" difficult times (maturation, growing pains, midlife crisis etc) a partner may be undergoing. And I'm not one for halfheartedly clinging or hanging on to a relationship that has cooled or of unnaturally working to rekindle dead flames, either. So it obviously depends on the outsider's own needs and perspective as to whether they will find rapport or not. A state of intense emotional invovlement and passion can be as much a barrier to understanding and acceptance as their concentration on more practical affairs, which all of us can readily appreciate and participate in (ie sex and money) as a way of strengthening group bonds and bringing everyone together on common ground.

 

[Daniel]

I think it impossible to make general assumptions about the japanese. I have experienced both the superficial and the very deep and open and my opinion is that japanese are just as different as british or danish or american or german or whatever else people.

 

[cacawate]

I honestly can't believe nobody has said 'beer' yet.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

My Closest.....

friend for a male in the 54 years of my life was Japanese.
Ikeda Shin was the brother I never had. We worked togeather & shared an apartment for over a year with many other friends.I don't think there were many times we were togeather we weren't discusing our lives and exchanging ideas and feelings. I still regret losing touch with him and his brother Toshibo in Fukuoka;been 30 years since I last talked to him, but I think of him often!
He was only one of many Japanese that accepted me as part of their families.I still feel Japanese are by far the most wonderful people in the world and they hold a special place in my heart!

Frank

 

[nuovo]

2) It could be that the average Japanese do not have such deep feelings (how try to restrict them ??). I see with my wife, in-laws and friends that their every concerns are very simple (eat, get money, sex, hot bath...). It is very deeply rooted in their mentality. Even when travelling, most Japanese only care about food, beaches or shopping. The best way to see in is opening a Japanese guide-book, which is very detailed for food and massage, but the culture, history, economy, politics, arts and religion sections, indispensable parts of any Lonely Planet, Rough Guide or Let's Go guidebook, is so-to-say absent of similar Japanese guidebooks (like the yellow 地球の歩き方). My point is, most Japanese are satisfied with drinking, eating, smoking and chatting with their friends, and do not see the need to discuss more meaningful things, be it reflecting on their life, discuss politics, or analyze the latest literary publications.

I do not know about the Japanese but many people in Asia are satisfied with very simple things. I don't know if it's due to the school system but most are not interested and know very little about geography, history, politics, and are completely bored if we talk about serious matters.

Example of a tour group organized for Asians: Europe in 12 days, 5 countries! Eating is a VERY important part of the tour... You make them eat any European food for a few days, they hate it! They need their own food!

They visit places, walk around, take pictures with their friends in front of monuments. You do not tell them a thing about the architecture or history of the place, no big deal! For them, good food and many laughs are the main ingredients for a good tour...

 

[orochi]

I think that a wall will exist until you have gained a farly proficient level in Japanese. For the average Japanese person, English skills are not that high and even if they are decent, it is difficult to express yourself in a foreign language (let alone in your native one!). As my Japanese skills have grown here in Japan, so has my relationships with Japanese people gotten deeper. If they feel that they can express themselves in Japanese and that you can understand it, it will definitely make them more open. As long as you have any kind of language barrier between you, that barrier can and will often extend to a relationship barrier.

 

[Maciamo]

I find j-people easy to talk to. They are really open with their feeling and they are really cool.

Can't agree more with that. The first approach is usually much easier with Japanese than most other nationalities for me too (no wonder I was already talking and playing cards with Japanese while travelling around India or Australia). The point is, they are very friendly, respectful, sociable and not too judgmental (although they have quite a few stereotypes regarding foreigners, which they do not hesitate to tell you in the face to see if it's true).

The problem I thought was raised in this thread is what it takes to get real Japanese friends. Not just friends or acquaintances, as this is very easy, but friends with whom you can share your passions, re-think the world, make big projects, trust in your entreprises, rely on when you have real problems, or feel you really understand each others before even uttering a word. This kind of friend is (more) difficult to find among the Japanese, in my experience. The nearest I've come to that was for "re-thinking the world" and "feeling we understand each others perfectly", and it is probably limited to 2 people, both men, and both well-educated and (about 10 and 15 years) older than me. In both cases, I could say that they lack the passion or enthusiasm of Westerners.

Incidentally, I haven't met a single (intellectually) mature Japanese under 30, and those above who are are still rare (many never become adults, to the sense I understand it).

Example of a tour group organized for Asians: Europe in 12 days, 5 countries! Eating is a VERY important part of the tour... You make them eat any European food for a few days, they hate it! They need their own food!

Well, Japanese like trying food from all over the world and usually appreciate it (except older people).

They visit places, walk around, take pictures with their friends in front of monuments. You do not tell them a thing about the architecture or history of the place, no big deal! For them, good food and many laughs are the main ingredients for a good tour...

Same for Japanese. Whenever I ask someone who was their trip/holiday abroad, 90% of the time (no exageration), the first and almost only thing I hear is about the food (ah, yeah, and the weather). I am yet to meet a Japanese who will tell me about what they learnt about the culture or history of the country they visited. What is it with some East Asian countries that they only care about food (and sex or massage) ? It can't be that the education system is so similar in Thailand and Japan ?! Close cultural affinities ? Go and tell the Japanese that they are culturally close to other Asians (esp. South-East Asians) !

 

[Mike Cash]

This is kind of a big question, and I'm going to hope it doesn't sound like a racist insult.

I have been around a good number of men and women from Japan, only gotten to really know one or two, but only to a certain extent. There is always a "wall" I guess. The most recent person, it was difficult to even maintain a friendship type of relationship, due to the fact they always had something else to do. Only many months later would they even mention doing something, and even that didn't seem to be the case.

I guess I'm wondering if this wall will always be there. If you can ever get past the cultural barriers and just "talk about anything." I'm sure this seems a bit of a silly question, but I'm still very lost in a lot of the culture and reasons, and probably always will be. It seems that I can be told how special of a friend or person I am, but then... I don't even hear from them again.

I guess I just don't understand... ☝

Some of us actually manage to get too close and end up with little 3000 gram biology experiments on our hands.

 

[Maciamo]

I think that a wall will exist until you have gained a farly proficient level in Japanese. For the average Japanese person, English skills are not that high and even if they are decent, it is difficult to express yourself in a foreign language (let alone in your native one!). As my Japanese skills have grown here in Japan, so has my relationships with Japanese people gotten deeper. If they feel that they can express themselves in Japanese and that you can understand it, it will definitely make them more open. As long as you have any kind of language barrier between you, that barrier can and will often extend to a relationship barrier.

I don't feel the same way. I speak Japanese everyday at home. My level is good enough to read Japanese books or watch movies in Japanese (I even watched a Chinese movie reading the Japanese subtitles). But that doesn't change anything compared to talking to people who speak fairly good English (TOEIC 900+). I think that personality, interest and similitudes in the way of thinking are more important factors in understand each others, especially when in comes to serious (politics, economy...) and important (marriage, education...) matters.

That doesn't change my opinion that a very sizeable number of Japanese, especially outside the well-educated business elite of central Tokyo, are shallow.

Some of us actually manage to get too close and end up with little 3000 gram biology experiments on our hands.

I think that "close" only meant in the way of thinking, understanding each others and sharing deep feelings or ideas, not physically (which anyone can do, whatever the culture :sorry: ).

 

[RockLee]

It also seems that J-girls sometimes don't have experienced the relation between boys-girls like westerners do...when I knew my Japanese friend for 2 months..she told me she never had any convo's with a boy like she had with me before...that was a total new experience for her, and she seems to like it ...is it true that J-girls/boys don't communicate a lot like us westerners do ? :?

 

[Mike Cash]

I think that "close" only meant in the way of thinking, understanding each others and sharing deep feelings or ideas, not physically (which anyone can do, whatever the culture :sorry: ).

Hint: I was implying getting "close" enough to get married and have children.

I had forgotten that out-of-wedlock birth has become the norm and that no one could reasonably be expected to get it. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Dittos on the shallow thingy, by the way. I couldn't agree more.

 

[ippolito]

This is my experience.....
I am italian an many years ago I was in Spain a visited a dojo.....all the spanish
invited me to train with them....I was a brown belt in Karate...and the jp sensei
was a godan in Shotokai....I was happy to train with a jp Sensei directly even another style...it was great for me....and many times we all went to have a beer together with Sensei. One day during a sanbon....some technics in couple...
he showed me a kind of technic and he gave me a very hard punch in the abdone.
There were no reasons...i did anything or sayd anything to make his humor change
just received and get in the floor as I wasn't ready it wasn't a sparring or kumite
I never understood him and why.
Most of jp I met in Tokyo very kind but it is not easy to understand what they think about you...more they have contacts with western world....more you can understand a little better....in Rome were I live sometime I help japaneses to find a road on the map...and they are happy to find a person gentle like them and available to spend some time and to be helpful with them.

 

[Emoni]

Thank you very much guys for all this info. It is appreciated, however lost I still am and probably always will be

 

[Elizabeth]

It also seems that J-girls sometimes don't have experienced the relation between boys-girls like westerners do...when I knew my Japanese friend for 2 months..she told me she never had any convo's with a boy like she had with me before...that was a total new experience for her, and she seems to like it ...is it true that J-girls/boys don't communicate a lot like us westerners do ? :?

What kinds of conversations were you having ? A lot of j-to j communication does tend to be nonverbal. If a wife never complains or gets sulky about cooking every night, a husband probably won't ask if she likes it or not. Likewise a wife who has never been to their husband's office (most in the case I know) is less apt to ask about work when they get home. Two different worlds and ways of life. But the relatively mature ones seem to appreciate very much a Westerners interest in more serious topics -- their work, religion, Japanese history, lifestyles etc.

Whatever the connection between having intellectual hobbies, strong emotional development and being a real friend.... :? If two people both have the sense of sharing an honest, intimate bond over a substantial period of time, who is to say they aren't true friends ? even in a culture where that might not be valued as highly as everyone acting their part to maintain group harmony.

 

[Maciamo]

Hint: I was implying getting "close" enough to get married and have children.

The allusion to the 3kg child at birth was evident, but why the hell do you need to get married for that ? Ah, yeah, true, that Japanese government doesn't recognise the father if the couple isn't married, even after a DNA test. Primitive thinking really.

Whatever the connection between having intellectual hobbies, strong emotional development and being a real friend.... :? If two people both have the sense of sharing an honest, intimate bond over a substantial period of time, who is to say they aren't true friends ?

Personally, I can't consider someone as a true friend without what I mentioned above. But I understand that some people can be contented much more easily. Good for them. If two people can spend their life together with completely different lifestyles and without caring about what the other does at work, at home or their hobbies, and are satisfied with just being together, with any form of meaningful conversation, then so be it - but that is not what I wish for.

 

[kirei_na_me]

Personally, I can't consider someone as a true friend without what I mentioned above. But I understand that some people can be contented much more easily. Good for them. If two people can spend their life together with completely different lifestyles and without caring about what the other does at work, at home or their hobbies, and are satisfied with just being together, with any form of meaningful conversation, then so be it - but that is not what I wish for.

Exactly. I feel the same way. Of course, that comes as no surprise, I guess.

I've participated in this same type of discussion so many times that I am just tired of it.

 

[Elizabeth]

The allusion to the 3kg child at birth was evident, but why the hell do you need to get married for that ? Ah, yeah, true, that Japanese government doesn't recognise the father if the couple isn't married, even after a DNA test. Primitive thinking really.



Personally, I can't consider someone as a true friend without what I mentioned above. But I understand that some people can be contented much more easily. Good for them. If two people can spend their life together with completely different lifestyles and without caring about what the other does at work, at home or their hobbies, and are satisfied with just being together, with any form of meaningful conversation, then so be it - but that is not what I wish for.

It isn't for me, either, and if Enomi's question real interest why this Japanese faux friend was giving him the brush-off so polite and elaborately, well....just try asking more directly next time.