By what standards do you judge good Japanese music?

lastmagi

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I've been curious about how fans of Japanese music pick their music, and would like to know by what standards do you judge good music? I've been wondering about this mostly because I've listened to a lot of apparent favorites of other fans, who tend to give ridiculously superlative attributes to vocalists who seriously can't sing, to guitarists that only know how to be annoyingly loud but ultimately dull, to albums with indistinguishable, un-creative songs, etc. Am I missing something? Yeah, music is subjective, but some bands are so off the mark that it made me wonder. So I thought I'd ask directly.

I'll start off to give you an example. Note that I'm not as much interested in which bands you like, but more interested in which bands you think are good and why. I think Psycho le Cemu is fairly good, but I don't like them. Also, no one-sentence replies that contribute nothing to the discussion, please.

1. Good vocals - I've never taken singing lessons, but I can tell the difference between a strong voice and a weak one. Sure, any vocalist's voice can be "unique," but to be able to breathe properly, to clearly pronounce each and every syllable you need to, to not sound strained, and to know which vocal techniques are appropriate when, these make all the difference in the world. Contrast a good, strong vocalist (despite some lapses in going off key) Hyde with the vocalist of an otherwise promising band, Rentrer en Soi, who apparently must have some seriously breathing problems (maybe asthma?). Or Risa Ohki, Emiro Shiratori, or even Maaya Sakamoto with Shiina Ringo (okay, different vocal ranges, but I don't know any good vocalists in the highest female range (soprano?)). I'm personally not bothered by slightly off-key singing; it's the strength of the vocals that makes it or breaks it for me.

2. Well-thought-out composition - I love hearing a bunch of intricately woven instruments going on in the background behind the vocals. This is why Utada Hikaru makes it for me, because of the richness of the bg instrumentals. Ken Lloyd and Inoran of FAKE? also know what they're doing. Also, an artist doesn't have to turn out complex songs all the time; L'arc en Ciel's Dune is actually a pretty simple song, but is still pretty good, and the band as a whole is really excellent for any number of reasons. But a nice little flourish of their compositional talents, like in Ophelia, Anemone, Jojoushi, even Forbidden Lover, doesn't hurt a bit. Also, I'm personally not a stickler for structure; even though L'arc's songs all have the same structure, they're all still wonderfully distinct.

3. Relative diversity of style/music technique - As opposed to an artist that can only churn out songs that all sound the same. As long as that is avoided, wonderful. Otherwise, I get bored really easily and start to question the creative process of the artist.

4. Conveyed emotion as subtle but present - When Utada sings, she doesn't weep or start gasping like the vocalist of ReS, though her music is often tinged with a sense of melancholy..

5. English that is not embarrassing - Especially when the vocalist isn't good in the first place, this can be quite damaging. This is not being ethnocentric, but artists that sing in bad English sound extremely unprofessional. It's distracting, and the native tongue is often better. Artists that smoothly transition between English and Japanese, however, like Utada or Ken Lloyd (yeah, they do have an unfair advantage, but oh well) or even Hyde, sound very cool. Shiina Ringo, on the other hand....

Other personal turn-ons: smooth and ambient music, strings, good bass, "epic" songs, orchestral, nylon-string guitar.

Other personal turn-offs: loud and annoying guitars, screaming, VK, most soprano vocalists, nasal vocals, piano solos that suck.

So what about you? What kinds of qualifications does good Japanese music need for you?
 
i like like either a good voice or nice music ^^
hehe sorry i can't really say it in a more discriptive way (I'm not very good at discribing 😌 )
 
Hey, that's a really interesting post and things for discussion! Thank you! 👍

*ahem* What for me to say, though... :?

For start, I agree with some of the points you already made. Well, I would say I judge good Japanese music the same way that I judge good music of any country or genre. On the other hand, there are some genres of music I like better than others, some that I don't really like but can appreciate the good skill, and others that I neither like nor appreciate (although I recognise that this is not a deficiency in the music itself!). So, I have natural biases in the same way with everyone.

When I think 'is such-and-such music good or not?'... I start off by making my judgements on individual songs/pieces. (In fact, the first one that I hear! If I dislike it, the chances are I won't listen to that group/musician again.) I think: Do the musicians (including the vocalist, of course!) play their instruments skilfully? Do I think they are conveying successfully the emotion they are trying to convey, or does it miss the mark? And, do they play skilfully together as well as the instruments individually?

To me, it seems that skilful playing = 'good' music - even if I don't personally like the resulting music. However, sometimes there are times when musicians perform with awesome skill, but lack something of emotion - they are playing so well, it is like a machine could do it. One example I can think of (it's late here, ok!) is Stefan Grossman. He has very good guitar playing skills, but sometimes I think lacks in 'feeling'.

Other times, again, there is good skills but there is a feeling of self-absorbed arty wallowing. One example I can think of here is Steve Vai. He is one of my absolute top favourite guitarists, producing some mindblowingly awesome stuff... but sometimes I feel it becomes a little too shapeless and esoteric, and I get the feeling he has done stuff 'because I can' rather than because it adds anything to the album he's producing. Hmm... I do have some musical knowledge, so it is not all going over my head because of lack of intellect to appreciate it 😌 I mean, obviously I'm not necessarily going to 'get' all the niceties, but I think music should be able to move people who aren't particularly familiar with the Mixolydian mode.

I seem to have said a lot of negative and not a lot of positive! :sorry:

Hmmm... I think there is not a lot I can say... I'm bad at explaining myself, sorry! But, for me there are 2 main things: the skill, and the expressing emotion. If these 2 things work and are successful, I think the music is 'good' - even if I personally don't like it.

Good vocals: well, I did take singing lessons for a couple of years. But, I hope I don't get all arsey about whether someone has a trained voice or not! 😌 However, it does bug me when I hear someone with a good voice misusing it in a way that will damage it. And, yes, nasally voices bug me, too. Also, it does irritate me when the vocalist doesn't quite hit the note! :eek: But, for example I'm sure you all know that like most of people here I love Diru's music, and I like the way Kyo sings, and the reasons I think his singing is good: he can well vary the tone and texture of his voice, sometimes singing very cleanly and precisely, other times screaming etc. etc. Also he is a 'natural', which is quite rare - I can hear in his clear singing that he is using the throat and palette in the 'right' way, and directing the air and resonances well. So, it is not just singer screaming or growling randomly!

The other instruments that I play, are guitar (acoustic and electric) and keyboard. So of course, I like to hear them played well; don't we all! :-) I like to hear fast playing, slow emotional playing, interesting arpeggios, good riffs and unusual chord sequences. I also like to hear variations in the texture of the music; parts where the guitars quieten down and the vocalist stands out; bass solos (yeah! yeah! I love bass!); places where the drummer gets the chance to shine too.

I was basing so far what I was saying on sort of band with vocals, guitars, bass, drums, keyboards.... There is also the different area of electronics in music and special effects. I find it quite difficult to tell what is 'good' in such music, because I don't have much knowledge of the techniques used to make the sounds. So usually I don't do much judgement on this at all in my usual way... :sorry: I just think of really subjective stuff like: Do I like the tune? rhythm? meaning? the feeling it gives me? But I can say that I dislike music that gives me the impression of being 'gimmicky'. I prefer to get the feeling that the medium can be subordinate to the message.

I use similar judgements in classical music. Once again - how skilful is the playing? How well do the instruments play together? How much variety and contrast is there in the music?

But, really then it is down to my personal tastes. For example, I tend to prefer music in a minor key (and even in certain modes). I like rock music, goth, some metal, some punk, some pop, some dance, some folk, and some classical music, and I tend to dislike rap and country music and military band music!

And, as you'll have guessed, I have a very much liking for music that varies a lot; that varies in volume, pace, texture and maybe key, too. Whereas someone who had a great love of (for example) bagpipes, might prefer to hear a piece with only that instrument, if it was played well.

I also agree with you about the importance of diversity of style (within one group/artist) and well-thought-out composition.

But, unlike you, I don't see VK as a turn-off. I prefer to just judge on the sound, not the looks. I know I am as keen as anyone here to squeal at hot guys 😌 but that is, I think pretty normal, like guys looking at pics of hot girls. I can seriously not ever judge music on the looks of the group/artist. Basically, if I don't like some group, I might look, but I won't listen!

OMG, I go on and on so much... Now I am embarassed! Sorry, I am very bad at thinking, especially when it is late. :sorry: But I love music so much... yikes I feel like I hardly even started writing! 😊
 
lastmagi said:
Other personal turn-offs: loud and annoying guitars, screaming, VK, most soprano vocalists, nasal vocals...

These are the rather generic comments made by most people who hate heavy rock music. I personally like most types of music, sometimes I don't feel like listening to Dir en grey and would rather listen to Ayumi or something composed by Yoko Kanno, they are more easy-going and uncomplicated to listen to.

That is not a matter of standards, it's a matter of taste.
 
good sound.

well the vocalists is quite important if there is one. some vocalists have killed my interest in a whole band.also the song has to be catchy. no random notes.
 
mizerable_d said:
also the song has to be catchy. no random notes.

lol yeah - now, MY guitar playing contains no random notes whatsoever. 😏 Just 12 very carefully-calculated non-random pre-set notes, of which I vary the octave, order and rhythm. :-)

(Makes me wonder how the hell I get them to *sound* so random, sometimes...... :? :unsure: ............... 😊 )
 
gah i hate random notes in songs. Miyavi did so many i was about to kill. but then there's his good songs.
 
How I judge music and artists? ...I don't see why I should judge japanese music differently than any other music? They have a different standard or something? :?

For me to get caught up in an artist - they have to make songs that make me go
BAAAAWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
the first time I hear them. They have to really hit me, you know. I'm not into the whole; 'this CD gets better when you've listened for a while' - that's like saying 'this CD sucks, but if you listen to it 5748548 times, you'll eventually get brainwashed into believing it's good'. 😌 Ok, I'm not being entierly serious here... 😌 I know a lot of CDs that DO get better and better the more I listen to them - but I would nEVER listen to a CD even though I hated it, just to try and 'make it become better'.

With the japanese artists, the vocal is important for me. (err.. actually with all artists) But since I'm not very good at japanese, and most of the time do not understand what the artist is singing about, his/her voice has to be one that can still make me interested in actually listening. I like personal voices - and LOVE artists who experiment a lot with the capacity of their voice. Kyo is an expert - I really admire him for that. (And off course, I'll have to mention Miyavi, whoses voice I love cause it's like sandpaper sometimes 😍 ) Singers who whisper, whimper, moan, laugh, roar, scream just get me going. Screaming is important. But it's got to be balanced. I can't stand a band where they all hammer their instruments for three hours straight, and the singer holds a death-metal-scream during the whole time. That's awful. The screams has to be well timed in the songs... 😌

Next, it's all drums for me. I dunno why, but it's the one instrument I really check out the sound of. How the drummer plays, and in what sort of a manner and tempo he does so.

Live. Live and live and live and live. Live gigs are soooo extremely important when I judge an artist, that it's almost strange. If the artist can make a good live, I adore him/her. Being charismatic, having something that makes you wanna look (and I'm not only talking about looking good) I'm talking about having a personality that shows - having something out of the ordinary. Everything is important; how the artist looks on stage, if he/she's comfortable, the contact with the audience (VERY IMPORTANT), how the songs are performed. I'm not looking for musical perfection - as long as I can tell the artist loves what he does and feels happy with what he/she's doing.
 
Oh, sorry about double posting, but I forgot to say I agree with a lot what Kinsao said... Good rant about Kyo! 👍

mizerable_d said:
gah i hate random notes in songs. Miyavi did so many i was about to kill. but then there's his good songs.
Random notes? How do you mean?
I agree with you; I like a melody too, and songs that are just sort of... random notes... are annoying. But; I don't recall Miyavi doing that? *doesn't want to recall* What songs? *interested*
 
@ Isay: I agree with what you said, too! :-) I especially like what you said about lives - I totally forgot to mention lives! :sorry: I think because I was just thinking of listening (as in, judging purely on the sound coming out of the speakers, rather than the live show). But, yeah, lives are very important! And, good live show uses extra skills than recording. 🧑‍🎤

But I've never seen a Japanese band/musician live! 😭
 
🙂 hello, newbie here...hajimemashite...

well... I have to listen to the whole song of one band/singer first or at least half of it. if the song sounds good, usually I get focus on the vocalist's voice and then the instruments sounds to find out the members' skills...

but... the appearance of the artists give an effect too 😌
 
isayhello said:
Oh, sorry about double posting, but I forgot to say I agree with a lot what Kinsao said... Good rant about Kyo! 👍


Random notes? How do you mean?
I agree with you; I like a melody too, and songs that are just sort of... random notes... are annoying. But; I don't recall Miyavi doing that? *doesn't want to recall* What songs? *interested*
Jibun Kakumei, there's more but i can't remeber.
 
hayakuchan said:
🙂 hello, newbie here...hajimemashite...

well... I have to listen to the whole song of one band/singer first or at least half of it. if the song sounds good, usually I get focus on the vocalist's voice and then the instruments sounds to find out the members' skills...

but... the appearance of the artists give an effect too 😌

Hey, it's nice to welcome you here! 🙂 🌹 🎊
 
Thanks for your replies, all. Your thoughts are all interesting to read, and I'll see if I can dive into some more discussion when I have more free time. For now:

Baignoire Volant said:
These are the rather generic comments made by most people who hate heavy rock music. I personally like most types of music, sometimes I don't feel like listening to Dir en grey and would rather listen to Ayumi or something composed by Yoko Kanno, they are more easy-going and uncomplicated to listen to.

That is not a matter of standards, it's a matter of taste.

Naturally. The refered text in that little section specifically mentioned *personal turn-offs* as a little addendum, which was to imply more of preferences than standards, which is why it wasn't included in the more descriptive list, and also why it wasn't more fully expanded upon. If one wanted me to expand, I would, but I wouldn't want the thread to be led astray that way. Basically my turnoffs of "loud and annoying guitars" and "screaming" are based on #s 2 & 4. (I wouldn't simply generalize and say I hate all heavy music; Maynard Keenan is pretty good last I heard him, and I tend to enjoy a number of Dir en Grey's music).

I'm of the opinion that individual people have their own standards on judging good music (not necessarily preferred music). Hence, why I asked what YOU think, and what YOUR criteria is on what music is done skillfully, what isn't, etc, and why. So, I had my "generic" complaints on the above-mentioned aspects because they didn't pass my criteria, to me. To clarify on my point, I am looking for what reasons one thinks some music is "good."

@those who wondered:

Oh yeah, heh, I just figured that since we talk about Japanese music in this sub-forum, I might as well make it relevant. Don't worry about the particular wording there too much.
 
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