Buddhism in Japan - Religion or business?

[grapefruit]

Is it then possible to consider religious organizations as businesses similar to privatized organizations that serve the common like electricity, water, gas, or telephone companies?

 

[Grandpa Frank]

They don't offer it.

Is it then possible to consider religious organizations as businesses similar to privatized organizations that serve the common like electricity, water, gas, or telephone companies?

I get little "inner peace" or mental comfort from any of them, especially when I open their bills, LOL.

Uncle Frank

 

[Ashikaga]

Furthermore, I also believe that by comparing the motivations and behavior of Britney Spears with Buddhist priests and monks (or any religious professional for that matter) only makes the distinction between business/entertainment and religious professionals more apparent. It seems almost laughable to compare Britney Spears and Mother Theresa and then conclude that they are both just in it for the money. Sure, Mother Theresa may have been a liar that managed to make the people she fed feel like she wasn't just out to make some green but I think that we can also judge her by not only what she SAID but what she DID. Moreover, it is really funny to think that I spent years learning Japanese and practicing Buddhism just have someone imply that I am really a businessman despite my own motivations.

What are you saying? Are you saying that Ms. Spears is somehow inferior to those who have chosen religion as their "profession"?

I wonder what Mother Teresa would have said about that.

Anyway, I stand by the point that I made about you saying it is more important than entertainment does not make it so. Everyone has a different value. It happens that I place religion no higher than show-biz.

 

[Monk in the Making]

It is a not a matter of one better than the other. Although, I certainly believe that there is more than enough room to make that case, however; that is was not the point. Ashikaga, it may be no different for you but there are differences... that was the point. Anyone can give their own opinion and it is downright religious of you to be so sure of your stance without any evidence other than your feelings and sensibilities (which made me chuckle, by the way). Yours may be the faith of no-faith but that doesn't change the facts about how certain people and institutions operate in society... and operate differently, at that.

 

[Monk in the Making]

Is it then possible to consider religious organizations as businesses similar to privatized organizations that serve the common like electricity, water, gas, or telephone companies?

Grapefruit, this is question lacks a bit of precision. I sometimes feel like blanket statements such as this really just muddy the water. Beyond the financial dimension, I doubt that much of a comparison can be made. In other words, religious group and individuals have to consider financial realities and they do, I believe, serve the common good of society. However, outside of those two comparisons what else is there that they might have in common? What sort of values, conceptual systems, education, practice, etc. do we acquire from the gas company? Here again, issues of motivation, inspiration, goal, method and effect show that religion is, at the very least, notably different from a mere business.

 

[grapefruit]

Grapefruit, this is question lacks a bit of precision. I sometimes feel like blanket statements such as this really just muddy the water. Beyond the financial dimension, I doubt that much of a comparison can be made. In other words, religious group and individuals have to consider financial realities and they do, I believe, serve the common good of society. However, outside of those two comparisons what else is there that they might have in common? What sort of values, conceptual systems, education, practice, etc. do we acquire from the gas company? Here again, issues of motivation, inspiration, goal, method and effect show that religion is, at the very least, notably different from a mere business.

I agree that my question holds the surface value of a joke. However, I wanted to point out that the central drive for the government to set a certain service as a privatized business seems to come from financial reasons, largely independent from the qualities of its service. It is the financial aspect that people care. It does not appear to matter what sort of values, conceptual systems, education, practice, etc. the institute can offer. If it was considered to be a financial burden, many tax payers would prefer it to be an independent business entity which takes care of itself without assistance from the government. Think about hospitals and schools. Besides, the line between what counts as a mere business and what does not is not clear-cut. We have all witnessed the US government's bailout plan.

 

[Ashikaga]

Here again, issues of motivation, inspiration, goal, method and effect show that religion is, at the very least, notably different from a mere business.

As I stated in my previous posts, it is in certain people's eyes. For those of us who do not subscribe to the idea of Buddhism in today's Japan somehow should be regarded differently, OK, I should say for ME as I only speak for myself, it is a business.

Yours may be the faith of no-faith but that doesn't change the facts about how certain people and institutions operate in society... and operate differently, at that.

I assume you mean priests and Buddhist organizations by "certain people and institutions" and today's Japan by "society". Different in what way? I think I have given some examples that make me think otherwise. I have not seen any specific examples to show me the work done by those mentioned above in today's Japan is being operated differently than "a mere business" other than you saying YOUR feelings and sensibilities count and mine don't. Why do you think that? What makes you think what I have been saying is so wrong, so much so it makes you chuckle? It is that kind of "hollier than thou" attitude.... OK, I won't go there as it is not relevant here. lol

It is a common practice for temples to offer better names for more "donation" upon "窶ｰﾃｺ窶督ｼ". Some even work with funeral homes to offer package deals. ﾂ Does all the money paid/donated by the people go into maintaining of the temples, paying for water/gas/electricity and the basic living needs?

Why there are 3 temples on my company's client list when we sell luxury imported German automobiles and why do we deliver brand new cars to these temples more than once a year? We know many companies like ours throughout the Kanto area. They all say how temples/priests are the best costomers.

I think it is great that they are making money and enjoying life. After all, they offer services that are enjoyed by many many people. Why try to hide it and pretend it is not a business? You can't just say "...but our GOAL is different.". Result is what we all can see.

 

[Monk in the Making]

Ashikaga, I apology if I came off sounding rude. That wasn't my intent. I thought we were just enjoying each others debate.

I guess I am just trying to say that there is more to religion (and an entire host of institutions in any society) than money. I mentioned charities before but the same argument could just as well apply to families. Are families businesses? They are groups of people that use money to attain what they want and need. Of course, financial elements exist in families and in religion. I am the first to admit this reality but is this there defining characteristic?

Also, I wanted to mention that I really enjoyed the information you supplied about your company and the temples purchasing luxury automobiles. Why do you think a temple needs a luxury automobile? I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Do you think owning or purchasing luxury automobiles changes a religious organization? If so, how?

As an aside, there are thousands and thousands of temples in Japan. So the three that happen be able to afford and to own luxury automobiles is hardly represented of any major group of Buddhists.

 

[Ashikaga]

They own luxury automobiles because they have money they can spend. They don't NEED them. I mean, who really NEED those gas guzzlers? People drive them because they enjoy them. It is luxury.

Some say that those "wealthy" temples/priests get profits from operating side businesses such as parking lots, apartments, kindergartens/schools, etc. Fine. If they have enough money to be able to afford luxury items, why not offer their services for free? Wouldn't that what one does if making money was not the goal?

Again, I repeat. I am not saying that they do not do all those nice things they claim to do. I think it is great that they are enjoying the kind of lifestyle money could provide. I just have quetions about them receiving special treatments/status when what they are doing looks awfully like running a business, to me.

Let us say that Buddhism in today's Japan is NOT a business and its goal is to enrich our lives, cultivate our ethical standards and to lead us to the peace that is Enlightenment and nothing more.

If I were someone who has lost a loved one and had to pay a lot of money to his temple for the funeral and everything that goes with it when his own finance was very very tight just so the deceased could 成仏, and saw a 2008 Mercedes Benz parked in front of the priest's residence, How would he feel? If he believed having a priest recite お経 and give the deceased a name would somehow help the deceased, he would just think to himself, "They deserve to have that fancy car because the work they do is very important." He understands from past experiences dealing with his temple and what he has heard from his relatives, friends and neighbors that it is just the way it is.

Here are some links to sites that show you some people's takes on the issue of the high price tag for anything temple-related in today's Japan. Reading the posts on the forum in the last link, it does not look like (in fact, I KNOW) that the three temples on our client list are among the minorities.

お布施の金額と戒名 豊島区の葬儀社より 豊島区葬儀社/葬儀屋/のひとりごと
http://www.memorial-soudan.com/jiin-ofuse.html
No.001061 お葬式、お寺・・ありかたについて考える
http://www.otera.net/modules/bluesbb/thread.php?num=l999&sty=1&thr=2296
お寺は、どこからお金を得ているのでしょうか？
http://www.setuyaku-kakeibo.com/blog/b1/archives/002344.php

I believe I have said all I wanted to say on this topic. Thank you for indulging me. I will keep reading everyone's posts on this thread, though.

My apologies to those who found my posts offensive.

 

[Nichiren]

The general image of Japanese Buddhism has been associated to ritualism(marriage and death ceremony) and has beeen instituionalized into making a money business. This is true not only in Buddhism but in all other religions(judeo-christian and islamic). This is very deplorable indeed.

Nichiren Daishonin, 13th century japanese reformist monk, was very adamant to priests/monks who used their status for their self-interest and forget their true mission as leaders/teachers of the Law to continously take action to save people from suffering and lead them to happiness which is the true image of Buddhist. In this sense, the Soka Gakkai Buddhist lay organization in japan which follows the spirit of Nichiren brings Buddhism into light and its original mission to bring happiness and prosperity of the society as whole-- the legacy in which Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin had taught that all people can attain the supreme path of Buddhaood and enlightenment in this lifetime just as we are...

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo......

 

[Ahega]

I once read something among those lines "I don't need a house of stone to believe in god, because he's in every stone" (I think the original was much more poetic...)
I don't believe in god, but I think those words go straight to the point: if you want to believe you don't have to pay any fees or worship god in a luxury church/temple/... and so on. I do not criticize the intension behind religion- to find some security in life, a community, strength to go on ... but what I do criticize is how those community leaders abuse those wishes to get power (well, not anymore) and money.
Unfortunately I don't know much about Buddhism to say something precise, but what Ashikaga said is quiet interesting and something I wouldn't have expected.