なんて

zuotengdazuo · 4 Jan 2020

昼前に学校が終わるなんて、テスト期間以外ではそうない。
Novel: Date a live

Hi. This is what I've found here: Japanese なんて grammar nante - Learn Japanese online

…なんて

「N／Aな（だ）なんて」
「A／Vなんて」

Meaning : The event before なんて is the object of judgment. It also describes undervaluation or surprise.

So according to the teaching material, what follows「A／V (dictionary form) なんて」is usually a word expressing a kind of judgement, such as すごい, うらやましい, 嫌だ, etc.
For example,
日本語能力試験の１級に受かったなんてすごいね。
So in the op example, can テスト期間以外ではそうない be some kind of judgment? But テスト期間以外ではそうない is nothing like すごい, うらやましい, 嫌だ, etc. テスト期間以外ではそうない seems more like just a statement of fact. Why can 「A／V (dictionary form) なんて」be followed by a statement like this?
Thank you.

Toritoribe · 4 Jan 2020

そうない implies the speaker's surprise.

By the way, there are many awkward/odd expressions in the example sentences in the page you linked. You need to keep in mind that the site is not so reliable.
e.g. (only from usage 1)
君はなんて言ってるの。大きく言ってよ。

面接の時、面接人はなんて考えるかちょっと好奇心があります。

先生：「お前は試験票になんて書いているの？」
B：「なにもないよ」

zuotengdazuo · 5 Jan 2020

Thank you, Toritoribe.
So does the pattern "V (dictionary form)+なんて〜ない" always express some kind of surprise?

Toritoribe · 5 Jan 2020

Not always. そうない just means "rare", so it totally depends on the context whether this expression implies surprise or not.
e.g.
俺がおごるなんてそうないんだから、ありがたく食えよ。

The speaker is not surprised by his treating/paying money for somebody here. He is just saying it's rare.

zuotengdazuo · 5 Jan 2020

Thank you again. But shouldn't the pattern V (dictionary form)+なんて be followed by a statement which expresses some kind of judgement, such as すごい, うらやましい, 嫌, or describes undervaluation or surprise?

Toritoribe said:
Not always. そうない just means "rare", so it totally depends on the context whether this expression implies surprise or not.
e.g.
俺がおごるなんてそうないんだから、ありがたく食えよ。

The speaker is not surprised by his treating/paying money for somebody here. He is just saying it's rare.

But in this sentence V (dictionary form)+なんて is followed by a statement which expresses none of those. Why? Do you mean the teaching material is wrong and V (dictionary form)+なんて can be followed by any kind of statement?

Toritoribe · 5 Jan 2020

What do you think about an example sentence 真面目な佐藤さんが理由もなしに会議を欠席するなんてないことだ。 in the site you linked above? Do you think that ない is not a "judgement", either? If so, it means that the writer of the site gave a counterexample by themselves, isn't it? Or, how about the following ones I found in a corpus? I believe these can't be "judgement".

めまいのために、会社を休まなければならないことがあるなんて、若いころには想像もしなかった。
それにしても、俺の抗議が聞き入れられるなんて、はじめてのことだ。
両親を亡くして、弟までがそんなことになるなんて一体どういうことなんだろう
子どもに自分の国の言葉を話させないようにするなんて、それは不可能なことよ…。
そりゃ死体を担ぐことを思えば、コードを切断するなんて手間のうちには入らないのかもしれない
映画の中のアカーキー・アカーキエヴィッチは、自分が観察されているなんてつゆほども考えていない人間としてふるまう。
女の骨の髄までしゃぶるなんて畜生にも劣るじゃないか
こんな小さな町であなたのような人に会えるなんて、思ってもいなかったな
冴子が謝るなんて想像してなかった。
ぼくが君の気持ちを落ち着かせるなんて、これが初めてだ。

You need to know that there are tons of "wrong" learning materials in the net. The writer of the site your are referring to wouldn't even realize how odd (or "wrong") their example sentences are.

zuotengdazuo · 6 Jan 2020

Thank you again.

Toritoribe said:
I believe these can't be "judgement".

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean. If those can't be judgment, then how could those examples be possible?

If you are not quite happy with the explanation and examples given in the site, could you explain this usage of なんて in your own words rather than use the term of phrase in that site?

PS:
I have read in another grammar book that なんて is used to express the speaker's emotion, but according to yours and my example, it seems it doesn't have to be that way. I wonder why? Are there other usages of なんて?

Toritoribe · 6 Jan 2020

なんて の解説
［副助］《副助詞「など」に格助詞「と」の付いた「などと」の音変化》名詞、名詞に準じる語、活用語の終止形に付く。
１ある事物を例示して、それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく) に言ったりする意を表す。なんか。…などということは。「手伝いなんてできるか」「本気にするなんてばかね」

goo

NTTドコモが運営するポータルサイト「goo」。今話題のニュースやドコモのキャンペーン、サービス紹介などお役立ちコンテンツを展開しています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

As in the dictionary, the function of なんて is to show that the preceding part is an example, so it's close to "a thing such like~". It has nothing to do with judgement (well, at least "not always").

zuotengdazuo said:
I have read in another grammar book that なんて is used to express the speaker's emotion

なんて【何て】 の解説
［副］《「なんという」の音変化》
１驚いたり、あきれたり、感心したりする気持ちを表す。なんという。「何てだらしないんだ」「何てすばらしい絵だ」

goo

NTTドコモが運営するポータルサイト「goo」。今話題のニュースやドコモのキャンペーン、サービス紹介などお役立ちコンテンツを展開しています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

You seem to be confusing two different なんて.

bentenmusume · 7 Jan 2020

zuotengdazuo said:
Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean. If those can't be judgment, then how could those examples be possible?

Just pointing it out (although I believe Toritoribeさん has made this clear) that what he means is "the interpretation of 'judgment' is not possible for these examples (and hence the explanation on the page you linked is not completely accurate)" not "these examples are not judgment (and thus なんて is improperly used here, as なんて needs to express judgment).

I believe Toritoribeさん has already answered your other questions, but as a general language-learning tip, I'd point out that this is why it's important to take free online resources with a grain of salt. They can be useful to help form your own understanding of various grammatical patterns (ideally complemented with more reliable materials, and/or the advice of native speakers), but shouldn't be believed/accepted verbatim as the 100% absolute truth.

zuotengdazuo · 7 Jan 2020

Thank you both!

Toritoribe said:
As in the dictionary, the function of なんて is to show that the preceding part is an example, so it's close to "a thing such like~". It has nothing to do with judgement (well, at least "not always").

If it has nothing to do with judgement, then any kind of statement can follow V (dictionary form)+なんて, when it means "a thing such like~", right?

Toritoribe said:
You seem to be confusing two different なんて.

In a grammar book I have consulted, the pattern V (dictionary form)+なんて in the sense of "a thing such like~" is described as expressing emotions.

Toritoribe · 7 Jan 2020

zuotengdazuo said:
If it has nothing to do with judgement, then any kind of statement can follow V (dictionary form)+なんて, when it means "a thing such like~", right?

Yes, as far as it fits the dictionary's explanation ある事物を例示して、それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく) に言ったりする意を表す。 (or your textbook's).

zuotengdazuo said:
In a grammar book I have consulted, the pattern V (dictionary form)+なんて in the sense of "a thing such like~" is described as expressing emotions.

I see. You actually don't confuse なんて with 何て. Sorry for my misunderstanding.
What's written as "emotion" in your textbook is equivalent to それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく) に言ったりする意 in the dictionary's explanation I quoted. What I wrote was ある事物を例示して part. Just "emotion", as you wrote, was vague to me. The detailed explanation like envy, happy, anger/astonishment, etc. is very clear, though.

zuotengdazuo · 9 Jan 2020

Thank you again. So the clause after V (dictionary form)+なんて must express some emotion?
俺がおごるなんてそうないんだから、ありがたく食えよ。
But in the above example, そうないんだからdoesn't express any emotion, as you said?

Toritoribe · 9 Jan 2020

"Is used (to express the speaker's emotions)" is not "is only used" or "is always used". The example sentence 最近は電子メールばかり使っていて手紙なんてめったに書かない can be rephrased to 最近は電子メールばかり使っていて手紙を書くなんてめったにしない without changing the meaning, and both めったに書かない and めったにしない are not the speaker's emotion. There is no difference between "verb + なんて " and "noun + なんて". Hope this makes sense to you.

zuotengdazuo · 10 Jan 2020

Thank you again.

Toritoribe said:
Yes, as far as it fits the dictionary's explanation ある事物を例示して、それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく) に言ったりする意を表す。 (or your textbook's).

Toritoribe said:
What's written as "emotion" in your textbook is equivalent to それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく) に言ったりする意 in the dictionary's explanation I quoted.

Maybe I misunderstand you, but you said the clause after なんて should fit the definition ある事物を例示して、それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく) に言ったりする意を表す。, which is equivalent to "emotion" in my textbook. So I thought you meant the clause after なんて had to express some emotion.

Toritoribe · 14 Jan 2020

zuotengdazuo said:
the clause after なんて

This is the key of your misunderstanding. "なんて expresses an emotion" and "an expression of emotion is put after なんて" are not the same. An expression/A sentence with なんて expresses an emotion.

In my example 俺がおごるなんてそうないんだから、ありがたく食えよ。, そうない is not an emotion, but the speaker put それを軽んじたり、婉曲 (えんきょく) に言ったりする意 into 俺がおごること by using なんて instead of おごることは.

The same goes to (d) あの人がそんなに有名だなんてちっとも知らなかった。 in your textbook. ちっとも知らなかった doesn't always express surprise (e.g. フランス語をちっとも知らなかったので、彼が何を言っているのかわからなかった), but the whole sentence expresses the speaker's surprise.

zuotengdazuo · 14 Jan 2020

Thank you. I think I get it.

なんて

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