For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

gaijinalways · 1 Jun 2008

I am posting this question to see what various people think and to see which issues you're looking at when we consider living in a country.

I'll be happy to share my views later.

Sensuikan San · 1 Jun 2008

What a strange and curious question - applied to any country, not just Japan.

But an exceedingly complex question also ... I think I see where you are coming from, but I'm damned if I see an instant answer - if there is an answer at all!

Frankly, I don't think there is an answer to your question. It would depend so much on the individual to whom it was put. It would depend on whether or not the individual was 'happy' with the country of their birth or dissatisfied (for whatever reason) or whether the immigrant/visitor ('gaijin') felt comfortable or 'happy' in their adopted society.

For example, in Canada, I am a "gaijin". I am happy and I am much more satisfied with my lot and with the country than many Canadians I know. Does that mean that it is easier for a foreigner to live in Canada than it is a Canadian?

No.

At the same time ... in the UK, I would be a Native-born citizen. But (with all due respect to all you 'fellow Brits') - I simply feel "dissatisfied" in an inexplicable way. Does that mean that life is easier for the very many immigrants to Britain than it would be for me?

No.

So ... where does this leave us?

Nowhere. Overall the question is too subjective to have an objective response. Others may feel differently, however, and the question is undoubtely an interesting piece of "lateral thinking" in a way.

Regards,

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

caster51 · 1 Jun 2008

For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

foreigners..
they have many options.
they can use a gaijin card

tokapi · 1 Jun 2008

caster51 said:
foreigners ..

Yea,my Americanized Japanese language exchange partner thought so too as he explained to me that ( exclude struggling gaijin English-teachers ) legal resident foreigners of Western-background live better than average local middle-class & working-class Japanese.

JerseyBoy · 1 Jun 2008

I think a foreigner will have a better living in Japan. If I were in Japan all my life, I know I would not be where I am. A typical Japanese are paid by the salary scale pegged at his/her age. Luckily, I was able to leave Japan for many years and still feel Japan is a foreign country for me. Because of my living outside of Japan, I was immune to that low salary which a typical Japanese worker gets in my age bracket. After a year of stay in Japan after my return from USA, I prefer the USA/Western style-living and am in the process for the career I can work like I am still in USA even though I am in Japan.

orochi · 1 Jun 2008

tokapi said:
Yea,my Americanized Japanese language exchange partner thought so too as he explained to me that ( exclude struggling gaijin English-teachers ) legal resident foreigners of Western-background live better than average local middle-class & working-class Japanese.

That's a pretty general statement. Are they actually living better lives because they are non-Japanese living in Japan? Or would their skills and connections earn them a comfortable existence anywhere in the world they could practice their trade?

JerseyBoy said:
A typical Japanese are paid by the salary scale pegged at his/her age.

This style of salary has nothing to do with race or geography--it's about choice of employer.

tokapi · 1 Jun 2008

Professional foreign nationals ( of certain ethnic background & specific trade ) are not subject to this type of work lifestyle,right ?!

Japan reports record mental disorder cases due to work

Friday, May 30, 2008

TOKYO — A record 268 people were officially recognized as suffering mental disorders from job-related stress and overwork （過労と過度のｽﾄﾚｽで） in Japan for the year to March 2008, the government said.

It was up from 205 a year earlier and the second consecutive annual gain, the Health, Labor and Welfare Ministry said in a survey released on Friday.

Of them, 81 committed suicide for the year, also a record high.

Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. A government survey recently found almost 20% of Japanese adults have considered killing themselves, with half the respondents saying movies and television are contributing to the high suicide rate.

Source: http://www.bworldonline.com/BW053008/content.php?id=084

There are some local Japanese hi-tech firms even screwed their college-educated engineers with long hours & expect them to work harder then wouldn't allow them entitlement ( cash pay out or time off ) to accrued holidays when turn in resignation ( quit the company ).I had one online J-male ( Cobol-san ) acquaintance wrote the details and whined about it in his blog.He left Japan for Australia last Fall ( 2007 ) in hope of better leisure living there,that country is now extremely popular among younger generation Japanese.

orochi · 1 Jun 2008

Yes, there are non-Japanese working in Japan who are overworked and underpaid.

tokapi · 1 Jun 2008

In this case,Japan is not up to par with all other industrialized nations.

gaijinalways · 1 Jun 2008

Sensuikan San posted

Nowhere. Overall the question is too subjective to have an objective response. Others may feel differently, however, and the question is undoubtely an interesting piece of "lateral thinking" in a way.

It's a question that will have different answers depending on your defintion of easy. Also of course, it depends on how you define foreigner, as certainly some foreigners have an easier life here than others. Japan is quite diferent from Canada or the UK, countries I didn't ask about.

If you think it's a subjective question, then give your subjective answer. But I beleive most people have an opinion about it.

Taiko666 · 2 Jun 2008

caster51 said:
foreigners..
they have many options.
they can use a gaijin card

caster, you're becoming a comedian!

tokapi said:
Professional foreign nationals ( of certain ethnic background & specific trade ) are not subject to this type of work lifestyle,right ?!

If one works in a Japanese company one is subject to the same stresses as Japanese... probably worse.

caster51 · 2 Jun 2008

If one works in a Japanese company one is subject to the same stresses as Japanese... probably worse.

I think to work is same everywhere
however, I feel JET is having a vacation in japan

anyway,why did you chose it in Japan such like a racist country as you said?
and you hava an option that you go home if you dont like it.
i can say it easier while you are complaining

gaijinalways · 2 Jun 2008

anyway,why did you chose it in Japan such like a racist country as you said?
and you hava an option that you go home if you dont like it.
i can say it easier while you are complaining

Ah, Caster, but that is going a bit off topic, yes? Of course, that is one thing that might make it easier for some people to live here, because we know we can always leave. Now of course, that is easier said than done if your spouse is Japanese.

As to why he chose to come here, that is also off topic, but certainly you can PM the poster or open another thread on that topic, "Why might people come to a place that they now have a negative view of?". Chances are the posters didn't have the same view about Japan before coming here as they have now.

If one works in a Japanese company one is subject to the same stresses as Japanese... probably worse.

I'm not sure, in some cases it can be better, because foreigners will often not take seriously the little head games that are played at work. That doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't bother them, especially if they are out of the info loop, but otherwise it probably doesn't bother them that much.

Tokis-Phoenix · 2 Jun 2008

Is this more of a question of "are foreigners happier living in Japan than Japanese?"? Such a question could never be answered. Happiness aside, i would imagine its easier for Japanese to live in Japan simply because they are probably less likely to encounter barriers in their day-to-day lives like language and cultural problems, and they are probably more likely to be accepted in general and not made to feel like an outsider etc.
When you go on holiday to a country, most of the time you will always end up only seeing the best of that country of which it has to offer (if you have a good holiday that is)- for us Brits, going to places like Spain or Amsterdam is a good holiday destination, however i'm sure if a lot of us lived permanently in these countries we would start to see a lot more of the negative issues in such countries. With the question of whether it is easier for foreigners to live in a country like Japan, are we talking about people who live there on long term holidays or people that live there as full citizens? 'Cos i think this is an important factor to take into consideration when answering the question (if it can be done so to any extent).

gaijinalways · 3 Jun 2008

With the question of whether it is easier for foreigners to live in a country like Japan, are we talking about people who live there on long term holidays or people that live there as full citizens? 'Cos i think this is an important factor to take into consideration when answering the question (if it can be done so to any extent).

Either as both may live here in Japan long term ( I am coming up on my 11th year anniversary this month).

Is this more of a question of "are foreigners happier living in Japan than Japanese?"? Such a question could never be answered.

Depends on how you define easier.

Happiness aside, i would imagine its easier for Japanese to live in Japan simply because they are probably less likely to encounter barriers in their day-to-day lives like language and cultural problems, and they are probably more likely to be accepted in general and not made to feel like an outsider etc.

Interesting that I have only seen a glimpse from one poster on what some possible negatives for Japanese living in their own country might be. It's not always a question of feeling like an outsider, but rather a different feeling, more like being watched all the time (at least that was how it was described to me, anyway). So some Japanese mentioned to me that in Japan, they never felt completely free as they might living in some other countries.

I suppose freedom is a relative concept.

Mars Man · 3 Jun 2008

I am concerned about the nature, composition, and intended direction of this thread, but, in that it was not in the Serious Discussions sub-fora, will let that concern remain where it rests.

I would be fully willing to argue, if I really had the time to properly do so, that it is easier for Japanese nationals to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese nationals. (where Japanese national means a person who was born here by parents who had both been born here (at the least--if not with one more generation) and who had all grown up here, or are presently growing up here, or temporarily abroad--as in college or office overseas)

My reason for arguing such is a simple demographical cross-section taken by random choice over the entire national geographical boundry. To refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise. Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.'

That being the case, there is no room for discussion of cultural differences of any kind.

Perhaps Chit Chat & Miscellaneous might have been the better choice of location?

Glenski · 3 Jun 2008

caster51 said:
foreigners..
they have many options.
they can use a gaijin card

As usual, I disagree 100%.

Japanese know the language and customs. They are used to the life of "gaman", "honne" & "tatemae", etc. Whether they like them is moot. Just because they are used to these things automatically makes life easier for them than for foreigners.

gaijinalways · 4 Jun 2008

I would be fully willing to argue, if I really had the time to properly do so, that it is easier for Japanese nationals to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese nationals.

No problem, real life often takes precedence over virtual life

.

My reason for arguing such is a simple demographical cross-section taken by random choice over the entire national geographical boundry.

You've lost me here. This is more an examination of values that makes living in Japan easier or not.

To refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise.

I am still lost here. I hope you have time to clarify what you mean.

As to the question, the defintions of the terms were intentionally kept vague to encourage more discussion. Where one lives in Japan has more bearing on other factors, which often affect Japanese and non-Japanese alike (except for possible contact with others of the same nationality or first language, both of which have some bearing on this question). Some foreigners prefer to live in 'inaka' areas, taking in stride the possibility of speaking and meeting another native English speaker perhaps only once a month or so.

Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.'

That again is up to the poster, but certainly must be addressed. If you wish to qualify your remarks to focus on certain ethnic groups please do so.

That being the case, there is no room for discussion of cultural differences of any kind.

I would argue otherwise. If anything, there is lots of 'space' to discuss about cultural differences.

Perhaps Chit Chat & Miscellaneous might have been the better choice of location?

Because of the reasons cited above, I would think where the thread presently is would be a better location. But as usual, I have no qualms about leaving such categorical decisions to our capable mods.

gaijinalways · 4 Jun 2008

Japanese know the language and customs. They are used to the life of "gaman", "honne" & "tatemae", etc. Whether they like them is moot. Just because they are used to these things automatically makes life easier for them than for foreigners.

Is that true? I seem to often run into dissatisfied Japanese who wish they didn't have to deal with these factors. Of course I also run into their alter egos, people who couldn't even envision living anywhere else and can't fathom a Japanese national preferring to live somewhere besides Japan.

Furthermore, foreigners can learn the language and the customs of Japan, so I'm not sure that would make living in Japan much easier for Japanese.

FrustratedDave · 4 Jun 2008

gaijinalways said:
Is that true? I seem to often run into dissatisfied Japanese who wish they didn't have to deal with these factors. Of course I also run into their alter egos, people who couldn't even envision living anywhere else and can't fathom a Japanese national preferring to live somewhere besides Japan.
Furthermore, foreigners can learn the language and the customs of Japan, so I'm not sure that would make living in Japan much easier for Japanese.

Of corse they don't want to deal with these factors ,but as Glenski said, they are better equipped to deal with them than a foreigner, which brings us back to the original question that it is harder for foreigners to live here.

My oppinion is that it is a lot harder for a foreigners to live here long term than a Japanese. On the other hand the short term foreigners could have it easier due to the fact that they know they will be going back to where they come from and not have to worry about their long term future.

The long term foreigners face a whole different range of problems that people who only live here for 2, 3 or even 5 years know nothing about. But one thing is for certain the longer you live here the harder it becomes for a foreigner. However, if the foreigners in question is willing to assimilate the Japanese customs and way of life it will get exponentially easier. That being said it still is harder for a foreigners due to the fact that there are racial barriers all around them and when a simple task for a Japanese can turn into a nightmare for a foreigner.

My two cents.

Mars Man · 4 Jun 2008

Gaijinalways has written:

I would argue otherwise.

To this, I respond with a strong, 'Please do!' So far you have only taken 'pot shots' from a somewhat disengauged postition in an evident attempt to weaken others' comments.

The OP is extremely naked. In fact, only one word in the title allows us to focus on Japan at all--otherwise, as posted above, the text provides room for us to use this thread to discuss living in any non-birthplace political state.

Gaijinalways has also commented as follows:

You've lost me here...I am still lost here

To this I strongly urge you to give it some deep and careful thought, and see what you can reason it out as meaning; in the most practical sense. Put some real work into the thread, rather than simply opening up with a what otherwise looks overly 'trollish' in fashion OP and intention.

gaijinalways · 4 Jun 2008

Sorry Marsman, you'll have to do better than that, even with your limited time. I really don't understand your answer.

mm posted

I would be fully willing to argue, if I really had the time to properly do so, that it is easier for Japanese nationals to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese nationals.

Okay up to here.

marsman posted

My reason for arguing such is a simple demographical cross-section taken by random choice over the entire national geographical boundry. To refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise. Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.'

This is the part where I say 'huh' and ask you for an explanation.

I can guess

a) you think the whole country is too wide an area to examine (entire national geographic boundary)
b) the defintion of 'easy' is not defined(refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise.)
c) you want a simpler defintion of foreigner (Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.' )

Is this what you meant (in my bolded statements)?

I'm not trolling, except for opinions. I don't expect there to be a definitive answer to the question.

marsman posted

To this, I respond with a strong, 'Please do!' So far you have only taken 'pot shots' from a somewhat disengauged postition in an evident attempt to weaken others' comments.

As said, I was looking for some discussion or opinions offered first before rolling out my 'grand' theory. Don't worry, it will be forthcoming. And thanks for moving the thread if you think it's better placed here under general Japan-related discussion.

frustrated dave posted

My oppinion is that it is a lot harder for a foreigners to live here long term than a Japanese. On the other hand the short term foreigners could have it easier due to the fact that they know they will be going back to where they come from and not have to worry about their long term future.

I definately agree, and since the time frame is not specified in my original question, this is a very good answer (and part of the 'theory' I will share soon). Even for some foreigners who stay here a little longer, they still have the option to leave, though it is perhaps harder to disengage before it's too late to leave.

semprni · 4 Jun 2008

I must confess, after initially loving Japan, I found it increasingly hard to live here, and this is one of the reasons I'm now leaving: I realised I was never going to be accepted as a equal by the majority of Japanese people, no matter how good I got at the language. Clearly this doesn't affect Japanese people. As for salaries, in the science lab I worked in, people's salaries were purely set by position, not nationality, so there was no difference there.

orochi · 4 Jun 2008

As said, I was looking for some discussion or opinions offered first before rolling out my 'grand' theory. Don't worry, it will be forthcoming.

We're all at the edge of our seats...

Mikawa Ossan · 4 Jun 2008

I think that if you plan on staying for a long time, meaning forever, it is definately easier for Japanese.

First, Japanese people do not have to worry about visas. They are citizens and therefore are entitled to live here forever. Even if a foreigner has an easy time obtaining his or her visa, it is an inconvenience that a Japanese national will never have to worry about in Japan.

Second, there is the language issue. This may be true anywhere, but if you are illiterate, you will find yourself in big trouble soon. Learning to read and write Japanese takes quite a bit of time, even for Japanese people, but they have the benefit of learning it as a child on the same level with other Japanese people of the same age.

So very little that really matters is written in any language other than Japanese. Contracts, manuals, receipts, application forms, maps, etc. Not being proficient in Japanese and trying to do anything of substance (moving, buying a house or car, etc.) must be like pulling teeth.

How about the little things? You're lost in some place and you need to ask for directions. If you don't speak Japanese, good luck.

How about bigger things? You get in a traffic accident and need to call the insurance company and police. Don't know Japanese? Good luck.

Having relatives is important for obtaining contracts. This depends a lot on the company you're dealing with, but if you're renting an apartment on your own (e.g., not through your company), having a relative co-sign your lease makes things go through a heck of a lot easier. Some places won't accept co-signers who are not relatives except under special circumstances, and then they still don't carry the same weight.

Making friends is much easier if you speak Japanese, unless you're content with having mostly foreign friends. Foreign people have a bad tendency to move out of the country, though.

However, I do agree with Caster in a sense. If you're here short term for the JET Programme and in your 20's, you probably have it easier than a similar Japanese person of your age. However, depending on where you're sent, it might be hell, too. I have heard of a JET who was placed in the middle of nowhere, and she was literally bawling and pleading to go home after only being there for one day!

Having said that, after spending some time on Gaijin Pot, I understand how people can have an easy time in Japan as a foreigner. But those people are only here on short term and mostly seem to want to play around, anyway. Those people I don't include in my 'analysis' above.

For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

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