Stereotype thread

[Mark of Zorro]

It might become a mess, but feel free to blandly post common stereotypes as best and as blandly as you can. And everyone try not to get emotional about it. I want to analyze these stereotypes. Please put your stereotypes in bold so we can clearly identify them.

Also, I want to know how you feel about stereotypes in general, you know, rather than how you feel about a specific stereotype. How do stereotypes come to be? Do they help or hinder us? Is there in any truth in them?

Of course telling us how you feel about specific stereotypes is also welcome.

I searched and the only thread I found about stereotypes was this one:

Japanese and cameras: real or stereotype?


My feeling about stereotypes is that they generally do contain an element of truth. If a group of people got a reputation (whether good, bad or neutral) its because a fair number of them share a trait (not all, but a fair number) and for one reason or another they got noticed.

Now, whatever that reason for getting noticed is, it may be fair or not fair at all. For example, people easily notice things about other groups they don't notice about their own groups. So the numbers might be even in both groups, but the OTHER group takes the heat.

I cannot emphasize enough how stupid I think it is when people believe a stereotype applies 100 percent to a racial, religious or other very large group. When it gets that big it may not even apply to 20 percent. But if all other groups it only applies 10 percent, then I would find that stereotype useful and deserved.

For example, Asian women are said to age gracefully, or look young even in middle age. I think the stereotype is true for more Asian women than women of other races, but its a damned fool who thinks all or even nearly all Asian women are like that. I could believe a slim majority, but I would throw a haphazard guess its more like 35 percent, and maybe 10 percent for white women.

Also, I despise people who use stereotypes for hate as per what I think its safe to say is a fact, that stereotypes do not apply 100 percent. If I hate, its based on what people do as individuals mostly, and to a lesser degree, what they allow others to do on their behalf. What some guy said (stereotypes) are not good enough to make me hate. Only to be cautious.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

BTW, I started this thread because I took flak and got ignore buttoned for stating that Jews and Arabs both have a reputation for being devious. I don't have enough experience with either group to make a strong opinion about that one, but, the stereotype is too common to just ignore. But as per my explanation above it may just be that a slightly higher percentage are devious, or that the devious ones really excel at being devious. I am sure that plenty of Jews and Arabs are open books if that helps anyone feel better.

Somebody still might get upset, but oh well. White men can't jump and white people smell like crackers. Americans are loud, boastful, arrogant and violent and love to invade less militarily capable countries for fun. But I ain't getting mad about somebody saying it.

 

[Hezam]

Jews and Arabs both have a reputation for being devious.

Interesting, it's the first time i hear that Arab are devious, i mean devious in what ?
The only thing that i experienced is that others think that Arab are rich ! which is completely wrong, only 5% or less are rich.

Somebody still might get upset, but oh well. White men can't jump and white people smell like crackers. Americans are loud, boastful, arrogant and violent and love to invade less militarily capable countries for fun. But I ain't getting mad about somebody saying it.

i've heard some people saying that Arabs are mad, rich, crazy, they love sex...etc but there is no reason to be upset, it's what some Arab acted somewhere and then it became a stereotype.

Nice topic, it makes me curious about what others think of Arab

 

[SusuKacangSoya]

I think this thread will go pretty well in terms of just listing common stereotypes. Perhaps we could investigate them.

I'm from Malaysia, and in my country, a lot of Chinese, Indians and other racial groups have seen the ruling Malays as discriminatory towards anybody who's not quite, well, Malay or Muslim.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Hezam, it may be an older or less common stereotype. I believe it comes from the stalls/vendors of market places, which as far as I know are still common enough in the Middle East, and the constant bartering and feelings of being ripped off.

I have been to enough flea markets to know that lots of White Americans are extremely devious in this way. But like I say, people are quick to stereotype other groups while being blind to their own groups. I don't suffer from that mental constipation as much as others do I think.

There may be more to the belief that Arabs are devious, but these stereotypes are very hard to get a complete handle on. I was also thinking that it may be from the fact that many Jews and all Arabs are Semitic and that Semitic people inherited a stereotype that was originally started with Semitic Jews. Or it could be a pan-Semitic cultural thing with regard to the continued commonness of bartering that has all but died out in the Western World.

But the older stereotypes of Jews in Europe were of Semitic Jews and I think that has created overlap.

Then of course there is the the stereotype of the Muslim (Arab) terrorist. You don't get to be a successful terrorist without being devious.

Next, so so many non-Muslim Americans believe that Muslims (again Americans quick to think all Muslims are Arabs) wanted to set up a Mosque near the 9/11 site to celebrate the attacks, despite Muslim insistence that it was quite the opposite. Surely those Americans feel Muslims (Arabs) are extra devious.

At this point I feel the need to remind everyone that I don't personally believe the stereotype has much truth. I mean, maybe a little for something I have over looked. I don't know. I don't know enough Arabs to say. But I cannot discount anything without some sort of proof or experience. This is just something I got from somewhere and wonder about. I have no special bias for or against Arabs at all, despite all the Hollywood and American news garbage I have been subjected to. As a westerner, I probably tend more toward T.E. Lawrence's view of Arabs.

Edit: Have you ever seen the movie "Secondhand Lions" (2003) with Robert Duvall and Michael Cain? In it there is a Sheik and he is pretty devious. Seemed a common enough stereotype to me. Its a good movie and I recommend it. At the end, you get the ridiculously wealthy Arab stereotype in there too. But at least it all ended on a "let's be friends" note.

 

[Hezam]

Market Places ! Yes, it's true, when it comes to business there is a big part of Arab whom are devious, that's why i asked you "devious in what? "
While this stereotype made by people who experienced it with some Arab, The other 'Terrorism' stereotype came from the Media which is far from the, i find stereotyping people by people acceptable because it has a lot of truth in it but the media is not acceptable because of the it's generalization, And there is a difference between generalization and stereotyping, Usually stereotyping applys to at least 10% or more of any group, But generalization doesn't apply to even 1% of people.
generalization comes from feelings like hatred but stereotyping comes from experience.

i hope my post is understandable

 

[nahadef]

generalization comes from feelings like hatred but stereotyping comes from experience.

I can't agree. Stereotyping is generally a product of ignorance and a lack of empathy, in my experience. For two examples:
1) The stereotype of the money grubbing Jew is a because money lending was taboo in Christian culture at a point in the Middle Ages. Jews, not subscribing to Christian theology, were free to practice this crucial social service, so they did, with Christian clients.. Then they were demonised for it, and the stereotype lives on today. The existence of this stereotype is a matter of people holding it apathetic about the facts. As much as there might be 'experience,' it's a product of ignorance.
2) the criminal black in America. This is a socio-economic problem, not a matter of genetics or native culture. It's known that relatively recent black immigrants (often from the Caribbean) do not have the same social problems as blacks who have spent generations in America, showing it is a matter of being born into a system and not fighting against it hard enough. A very small group of people ever manage to remove themselves from the group they're born into. It's tough. My dad has gone on and on about this for decades, and it's pretty tiresome. Though I think he does it now to get a rise out of his kids more than that he thinks blacks are inherently bad. All in all, it's a product of ignorance, and apathy to boot.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

1) The stereotype of the money grubbing Jew is a because money lending was taboo in Christian culture at a point in the Middle Ages. Jews, not subscribing to Christian theology, were free to practice this crucial social service, so they did, with Christian clients.. Then they were demonised for it,

It may seem a fine line, but no, money lending was acceptable and practiced. What was not allowed was lending money with interest, which was known as usury. To medieval Christians, this was the same as being a loan shark today. And in fact, I have a bit of trouble disagreeing with them entirely. I have been charged interest rates I certainly think should be criminal. And guess what? I despise the people who charged me those rates. I also despise the people who sold my loan to the people who charged me those rates.

But you know what? This is the result of allowing usury, and boy, weren't those medieval people foresighted?

Now, I am not going to say I am against a fair interest rate. I don't mind people making money off of money lending. However, people are getting filthy rich off it while ripping poor people off. I recognize that a lot of things might not be possible without the system we have, but I still despise those who screw people over to get rich just because they already have money and can do this.

Now imagine if every single person ripping off the poor were Jewish. It would not matter if 80 percent of the Jewish money lenders were fair honest people. If just 20 percent were misers in the mold of Scrooge, the stereotype would stick against all because of the mental constipation of humanity I have already pointed out.

To me personally, the stereotype would be fair to quite a lot of those money lenders, cause you know if people are lending money with interest a fair amount WILL be crooked bastards. Hardly matters their religion.

But there is one more thing here. The tail wags the dog. We cannot forget that since so many Jews became money lenders, that that had a MASSIVE effect on Jewish culture and that carries on even through today. There is no way that situation could not have had a massive effect on Jewish culture. To deny it would be like saying Amish people know about as much about wood working hand tools as anybody else, and that would be nonsense.

Yes, I do believe you will find a higher percent of Jews who are engaged in businesses that are far less removed from money lending than say, working on a factory floor. And a part of that is going to mean that a higher percentage of Jews are money grubbing misers.

Should we hold that against all Jews? Of course not! 50 percent? Of course not! I doubt we could find 10 percent of Jews who remotely fit the stereotype...but...I still think its going to be a higher percentage than most other groups.

Is the knowledge useful? Frankly, I don't think it is. I don't there are enough Jews fitting the stereotype that one should say to oneself "Oh, he's Jewish. I better be on my guard."

Smarter to say "Oh, he is a banker. I better watch my @$$." And collection agencies need to be smacked with strict controls, I don't care what race or what religion they are being run by, but I suspect most are White and at least pretending to be Christian.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Market Places ! Yes, it's true, when it comes to business there is a big part of Arab whom are devious, that's why i asked you "devious in what? "

Thank you for confirming that. Most of my knowledge comes from movies. I think I at least have a fair sense of what movies tend to be closer to the truth though.

So I guess I should ask you about something else I remember from movies. I think it was "The Englilsh Patient". It was said in it that its rude not to barter at least little bit at the market place. In other words, its rude to just pay the listed or stated price and leave. I will take your word over a movie of course, but I will say it was supposed to be Egypt of the 1930s. Things might be different today and so might Egypt.

While this stereotype made by people who experienced it with some Arab, The other 'Terrorism' stereotype came from the Media which is far from the, i find stereotyping people by people acceptable because it has a lot of truth in it but the media is not acceptable because of the it's generalization, And there is a difference between generalization and stereotyping, Usually stereotyping applys to at least 10% or more of any group, But generalization doesn't apply to even 1% of people.
generalization comes from feelings like hatred but stereotyping comes from experience.

That is very interesting, and I never really considered such a contrast between generalization and stereotypes. I am going to have to think on that more before I can say anything sensible. But you have stumped me, and I have to tell you that makes a good impression.

As for the Muslim/Arab terrorist stereotype, I certainly feel its over-done. But when it comes to non-government related acts of international terrorism, I can't think of any off hand that do not involve Muslims. (Including Chechnyans as well as Arabs. But I can think of plenty of domestic terrorist acts by non-Muslims).

That said, there is plenty of international terrorism committed by the CIA and the U.S. military. So my problem is not the portrayal of Muslims/ Arabs as international terrorists. My problem is the portrayal of the CIA and U.S. military either as heroes or occupying some dubious middle ground, but NEVER, EVER as every one of these people are freaking terrorists in a terrorist organization. If they are going to the CIA and U.S. military leeway, sympathy, or excuses, they need to do the same with Muslims/Arabs.

I would also like to see movies represent more of those domestic terrorists. Terrorism in movies does seem over-represented by international terrorism.

And, oh yes, I also have another problem. Not nearly enough portrayals in movies of typical, everyday Arabs/ Muslims, or for that matter Persians (not that your average American popcorn munching movie goer knows there is any difference). If 90 percent of the Muslims/Arabs they see are terrorists, it will skew their perception, and no, the mass of average Muslims/Arab extras shown for five minutes at the beginning of the movie cannot balance out three main characters who want to blow up some building in America.

i hope my post is understandable

Mostly yes. I think its only my own ignorance in the way of the rest, but I will catch up.

Thanks for your thoughts and especially your patience. I would not be so patient if Hollywood was treating any of my affiliated groups unfairly, I think we all know that!

 

[Hezam]

Thank you for confirming that. Most of my knowledge comes from movies. I think I at least have a fair sense of what movies tend to be closer to the truth though.

So I guess I should ask you about something else I remember from movies. I think it was "The Englilsh Patient". It was said in it that its rude not to barter at least little bit at the market place. In other words, its rude to just pay the listed or stated price and leave. I will take your word over a movie of course, but I will say it was supposed to be Egypt of the 1930s. Things might be different today and so might Egypt.

I have never heard of it, Actually any seller would love it if you pay the listed price, the more you barter the more seller gets annoyed, And from my personal experience because i worked 6 years in retail in a region that buyers barter tooooo much, i hate person who barter, it annoys me.

That is very interesting, and I never really considered such a contrast between generalization and stereotypes. I am going to have to think on that more before I can say anything sensible. But you have stumped me, and I have to tell you that makes a good impression.

i'm not sure if what i said is accurate because my english level doesn't make me eligible to define concepts but i'm using the simplest words.

As for the Muslim/Arab terrorist stereotype, I certainly feel its over-done. But when it comes to non-government related acts of international terrorism, I can't think of any off hand that do not involve Muslims. (Including Chechnyans as well as Arabs. But I can think of plenty of domestic terrorist acts by non-Muslims).

That said, there is plenty of international terrorism committed by the CIA and the U.S. military. So my problem is not the portrayal of Muslims/ Arabs as international terrorists. My problem is the portrayal of the CIA and U.S. military either as heroes or occupying some dubious middle ground, but NEVER, EVER as every one of these people are freaking terrorists in a terrorist organization. If they are going to the CIA and U.S. military leeway, sympathy, or excuses, they need to do the same with Muslims/Arabs.

i admire your high sense of justice, i have not seen you with this or that side without a decent reason, Too many people (even good people) lack the sense of justice.

I would also like to see movies represent more of those domestic terrorists. Terrorism in movies does seem over-represented by international terrorism.

i wish, i would love to watch it.

And, oh yes, I also have another problem. Not nearly enough portrayals in movies of typical, everyday Arabs/ Muslims, or for that matter Persians (not that your average American popcorn munching movie goer knows there is any difference). If 90 percent of the Muslims/Arabs they see are terrorists, it will skew their perception, and no, the mass of average Muslims/Arab extras shown for five minutes at the beginning of the movie cannot balance out three main characters who want to blow up some building in America.

It's painful to watch movies that represent Muslims as crazies, i've seen many movies that represent Arab like wild animals auto-attacking Westerners, Holywood show Arab/Muslims in very bad shapes, dressing rags, angry faces, and scary loud voices.
Holywood can change the relationship between East & West, It can build friendship instead of spreading wrong images and racism.
i hope someday Holywood change it's purpose to serve humanity.
.

Thanks for your thoughts and especially your patience. I would not be so patient if Hollywood was treating any of my affiliated groups unfairly, I think we all know that!

i'm an open book, ask me any question and don't worry what kind of question you want to ask, just ask and you will get a honest answers.
Asking people directly and watching them closely is the best way to know the truth.

Cheers.