一方 / くらいで / きりで

[eeky]

Hi,


1. 給料は安いのに、仕事は＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿一方だ 。

I believe that in this exercise 一方 is meant in the sense of "keeps on ~ing", but I'm not sure I understand the intention of the sentence as a whole. What sort of thing is expected in the missing part?


2. 彼は意志が強いから、一度失敗したくらいで、＿＿＿＿ ＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿。

I believe basically this is expecting a sentence something like "He is very determined, so if he ever has a failure, he tries again". However...

a) What is the meaning of くらい?

b) Does で indicate time of action?


3. ほかの人は部屋の外に出てもらって、＿＿＿＿＿＿きり で話し合った。

I am more or less defeated by this. I wondered if the first part meant "I had the others leave the room", but I'm unsure whether は is the right particle for that meaning. I have no idea what sort of thing is expected in the gap, or what きりで is supposed to mean here.


4. I understand that the choice of kanji versus kana can be the individual author's decision, and can be affected by context too, but sometimes I notice different spellings even on the same page with no obvious contextual justification. For example, in one place I see とって作った略語, yet just a short while later it is とってつくった略語. Does this look inconsistent to a Japanese reader, like a small error? Or does no one care or notice at all?

 

[nahadef]

I can help you on two of those questions.

1) 一方 is used (in your example) as "will only." I might use something like, 面白く成る in the blank. "Despite having low pay, the job will only get more interesting.

3) きりcan be used to emphasize privacy, so in this case, ふらりきり, "just the two of us." You can use 一人きり to show how lonely you are, rather than "by myself" which might sound tranquil.

For 2) I would would use くらい as a kind of "about", "if he fails or something" and then in the blank, "he tries even harder." But maybe someone else has a better answer.

For 4) I don't really know, but whenever I've asked that to a Japanese person, they just say it's okay.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Nahadef-san's explanation about ～一方 is correct, but ～のに is used for the case that the main clause is opposite to the situation that is normally considered to be happened as the result of the clause preceding のに. I don't believe there is a common sense that 給料が安い仕事 is always 面白くない, so 面白くなる is hardly used here. 給料は安いけど、仕事は面白くなる一方だ is OK, since the adversative conjunction けど doesn't require the situation "opposite to the common sense", unlike のに. I would use 給料は安いのに、仕事は増える一方だ for the answer. (There is a common sense "The more people work, the more their income increase".)

2)
～くらいで is the same as ～ても/でも here. くらい gives a nuance that ～ is an example. Maybe 一度（くらい）失敗しても makes sense?

3)
Nahadef-san is correct except a typo ふたりきり.
は is used since "the others" leave the room, but the people/person concerned stay in the room.

4)
Yeah, it should be avoided in official documents, but often occurs in daily life.

 

[eeky]

Thank you both,

1) To confirm my understanding, does 給料は安いのに、仕事は増える一方だ imply that the person is not working much at the moment (e.g. not working many hours per week), and hence is not earning much, but the amount of work is likely to increase (e.g. more hours per week), and when that happens the person will earn more?

3) Just to confirm, then, my original "I had the others leave the room..." is correct for the first part of the sentence?

 

[nahadef]

In 1, no, the pay wouldn't increase. It's that even though it's low pay, work will still increase. I think my example of it getting more interesting works in English, since that's a contrast, but when doing these kind examples, my teacher would say, じゃっかん違う, not quite.

For the other, it uses もらう, so it simply means they did it for you, not that you requested it. The させる pattern would imply you had them do it.

 

[eeky]

1) Do you mean the implication is that the amount of work will increase but the pay will remain at the same low level then? That does not seem to accord with Toritoribe's principle that "The more people work, the more their income increase".

3) Well, according to WWJDIC:

もらう 《貰う》 (v5u,vt) (1) (uk) to receive; to take; to accept; (2) to get somebody to do something (follows a verb in "te" form);

I would say "get somebody to do something" is pretty much synonymous with "have somebody do something". Or is the dictionary wrong?

 

[nahadef]

1) Do you mean the implication is that the amount of work will increase but the pay will remain at the same low level then? That does not seem to accord with Toritoribe's principle that "The more people work, the more their income increase".
3) Well, according to WWJDIC:
もらう 《貰う》 (v5u,vt) (1) (uk) to receive; to take; to accept; (2) to get somebody to do something (follows a verb in "te" form);
I would say "get somebody to do something" is pretty much synonymous with "have somebody do something". Or is the dictionary wrong?

Toritribe wrote that のに goes against common sense, and that income increasing would be common sense.

I suppose you could have had them do it for you depending on the situation, but the most common reading would that they did it for you, without context. Maybe in that case you asked them all to do it for you?

Generally in English, there is a nuance of difference between get someone to do and have them do. Though they can be interchangeable, "have" can have a feeling of delegation, while "get" has a feeling of request. Have your secretary hold your calls versus get your dad to drive you somewhere. At least, that is how that English is taught to Japanese.

 

[eeky]

Thanks, one of us is misunderstanding what Toritoribe meant in (1). Let's wait and see what he says...

Toritoribe, do you also have a view on whether in this case ~てもらって is more like "I/we got them to..." or "they did ... for me/us"? I thought the latter would be more くれる than もらう...

 

[Toritoribe]

As you know, the original meaning of 一方 is "one side". ～する一方だ means the thing/situation only goes to one side, and never goes to the opposite side. So, 仕事が増える一方だ means (the amount of) work will only increase more and more and never decrease. Nevertheless, income is (still) low. That's against "The more people work, the more their income increase", therefore のに is used here.

As for 出てもらって, the speaker would ask them leave the room.

Sorry if my explanation was (is still?) confusing.

 

[eeky]

Thanks, I think I get it now ...