Do foreign soldiers in Afghanistan have honor?

[Hezam]

That is 100% untrue. The Crusades are one of the great embarrassments of Western history. You are severely misinformed if you think there is a grain of truth to your statement.

I'm glad that you see them this way, but i have seen many many westerners putting Crusaders pictures in their signatures and avatars in many forums and online games etc etc.

 

[nahadef]

I'm glad that you see them this way, but i have seen many many westerners putting Crusaders pictures in their signatures and avatars in many forums and online games etc etc.

Ignorant racists have computers too. There is no law against it. If you go to the American south, you'll still see flags of the losing side of the American civil war.

I am in no way Christian, but I will say that most Christians understand that starting wars in the name of Christ (i.e. the Crusades) was a mistake, and against the teachings.

 

[Hezam]

Ignorant racists have computers too. There is no law against it. If you go to the American south, you'll still see flags of the losing side of the American civil war.
I am in no way Christian, but I will say that most Christians understand that starting wars in the name of Christ (i.e. the Crusades) was a mistake, and against the teachings.

Will the Americans consider Bush's Crusade an embarrassment of their history ?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Ignorant racists have computers too. There is no law against it. If you go to the American south, you'll still see flags of the losing side of the American civil war.

Nothing wrong with the Dixie flag. But there is something wrong with people that see it as a symbol for slavery and race hate. I see it as a symbol of the right to leave the Union, a right that was denied like a wife not being allowed to divorce her husband. Yes the wife might have been an evil biatc#, but that does not mean she has to stay in a marriage does it?

I am in no way Christian, but I will say that most Christians understand that starting wars in the name of Christ (i.e. the Crusades) was a mistake, and against the teachings.

I beg to differ. I think if that were remotely true, there would be more overall understanding of how un-Christian war itself is. But with all those Christian soldiers it seems to me that its not the case.

In fact, I feel safe saying that soldiers claiming to be Christians dishonor Jesus Christ.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

My point being that your perspective is spoon fed to you by media that already shows it's biased on a daily basis. If you have no personal experience in the matter, your just babbling another person's agenda. A wind-up something is right.

Me? A thrall of the media?? That is completely laughable!!! Anybody who knows the first thing about me knows that is not true.

Would you then say that the Cold War was another stupid American muscle flexing exercise in history?

As far as Eastern Europe and East Germany goes, no. As far as the spread of communism in Asia and Latin America goes, yes. But I would not say stupid as much as selfish and greedy.

You already claim that America had no business in Vietnam and Korea, since you apparently think Communism is no threat to the world. You seriously think that Russia, Korea, Vietnam and China would not have spread their influence forcefully to surrounding countries if we just let them be? They proved themselves invading 2 of the above mentioned already.

Who invaded who? What are you talking about?

No, communism was not a threat to the world. Totalitarianism was. Communism was a threat to American businessmen first and foremost.

What the hell was it to the world if Korea and Vietnam went communist? Vietnam did, and that was it. Korea is still at war because of American meddling and now North Korea has gone nuclear. All because of this garbage about communism being a threat.

People with honor are those that are willing to fight for a cause that they believe in. Those that fight against injustice also have honor.

So if I believe in and fight for subjugation of women, I have honor?? What??

Those, however, that have no experience in the matter and blindly accept media's sensationalism have no objective perspective and only demoralize those soldiers that actually have some experience in the matter.

What a load of crap. Being a soldier in war does not impart better knowledge of politics and philosophy than someone who reads and knows about events past and present in places where the soldier never served. Kandahar is different from Kabul is different from Badakhshan. A soldier might have some knowledge I don't have, sure. But it won't necessary be the macro of these events. Mostly, only one reading will have that sort of knowledge, and this thread is totally about how the macro trumps the micro.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

They way you prattle about honor you must really think that you are Don Diego de la Vega. :? Clearly, never having engaged in combat, you're clearly superior to Lancelot du Lac and Robert E. Lee combined about honor in the fighting-man (or men in general!).

Why in the sam hell do I need to engage in combat to figure out that a war is wrong and without honor????

If that were true we would never discover the wrongness of a war until its well under way.

We would have war everywhere every day. We would have to just to know! What the bloody f?

Then you shouldn't have raised the situation of "foreign soldiers in Afghanistan" in the OP. Nor brought up "Hitler's henchmen." Etc. What do soldiers fight in? Wars? What do soldiers engage in? Combat.

Errrrr.....

So they just go stupidly into any war with zero thought and you think thats honor?

It's not honorable to call someone a fool for disagreeing with/remonstrating with you you know. My own honor is offended. I demand a duel with swords.

Can the thin skinned have honor? I have to cast doubt on that too!


When people insist on thinking like this it is no wonder we still have war in the 21st century. This excuse making is just horrible, but so very typical of males.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I know that different people and cultures have different concepts of honor. For the Japanese, there was no dishonor in the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor for example, and declarations of war was just something stupid in the minds of so many Japanese.

But, should we not consider what is honorable and what is not? Should we not strive to make honor better and more consistant? Would that not make honor more honorable?

Do you guys believe that every soldier in Afghanistan is there because they believe in the mission? Do you think its even half? What percentage do you think even gave a second thought to opting out for disagreeing with the mission. How many have quit in 11 years? How many are just following the rules without thought to what they are doing and supporting?

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. This is because its damned hard to tell if patriotism is real. Much the same with honor and believing in a war mission. Its easy to hide behind lies. We should not let it happen so easily.

Our scrutiny should be severe.

 

[noyhauser]

Nothing wrong with the Dixie flag. But there is something wrong with people that see it as a symbol for slavery and race hate. I see it as a symbol of the right to leave the Union, a right that was denied like a wife not being allowed to divorce her husband. Yes the wife might have been an evil biatc#, but that does not mean she has to stay in a marriage does it?
.

Seriously? You're going on about how you're against any form of discrimination in the porn actress thread, and then you're here defending the dixie flag against people who misconstrue it as a sign of slavery?

Previously I thought you might have a tortured sense of principle. Now I just see you're a blatant hypocritical idiot or a troll. Go find some other board to inundate with your tripe, because frankly most people here are getting tired of it. I know I am.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

and then you're here defending the dixie flag against people who misconstrue it as a sign of slavery?

I don't understand you.

To me the Dixie flag is a sign of the support of state's rights to leave the Union, and I support that. I do not support slavery, which is, incidentally, what you get when a state cannot have independence.

To some people the Dixie flag represents slavery and race hate. To me, it does not. But how can you tell which it represents to a person who displays one? You cannot assume blindly. Well, I suppose you can, but you shouldn't. Its dumb.

I suppose I could also defend the ancient Buddist symbol that the Nazis turned into the swastika and get the same sort of reaction from people who don't or refuse to realize the symbol is thousands of years old and that just before the Nazis started using it, it was a used as a good luck charm by early aviators.

There are times when emotions are a good guide. This is not the time.

Previously I thought you might have a tortured sense of principle. Now I just see you're a blatant hypocritical idiot or a troll. Go find some other board to inundate with your tripe, because frankly most people here are getting tired of it. I know I am.

You don't pay much attention and/or you have a short memory. I have endured these garbage accusations before. More intelligent people than you have figured out that I am no troll, and that at the very least, I have thought very hard about most all I say.

What is actually going on is that my consistency and fairness are crashing hard into your brainwashing and failure to comprehend what I wrote. I am sure it hurts your head, but that is life.

 

[BrianLewis]

I find this pretty entertaining to read, but I can't really take any of it seriously when it lacks common sense.

Do you guys believe that every soldier in Afghanistan is there because they believe in the mission? Do you think its even half? What percentage do you think even gave a second thought to opting out for disagreeing with the mission. How many have quit in 11 years? How many are just following the rules without thought to what they are doing and supporting?

I can't endeavor to assume I know what the entire community is thinking, but I find it amusing that you think you can do just that. That said, of those people that I know personally, the vast majority of them do not suffer the same heart ache and confusion about their mission. They are not brainwashed with eyes glazed over, instead they believe in what they are doing and do their job professionally.

I find it distasteful that someone that has not been there nor has an understanding of the importance of what they are doing has the nerve to insult people that risk their lives every day because out country deems it necessary. Sit down any random child with a soldier and a forum troll and ask them to tell you who is more honorable. I am pretty sure your going to get the right answer just about all of the time. If you have a problem with foreign policy, you should criticize the policy makers, not those that have an duty to follow those orders. There is no honor in making a fool of yourself.

 

[noyhauser]

I don't understand you.

You don't? For someone of such superior intelligence its a pretty simple argument.

Zorro: Self Proclaimed defender of all those oppressed (including the vast legions of former porn actresses)
Dixie Flag: Symbol of Oppression to millions of blacks in America.
Zorro: Defends the right to fly the Dixie flag because it doesn't represent that to him.
Noyhauser: You're a hypocrite.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

II suppose I could also defend the ancient Buddist symbol that the Nazis turned into the swastika and get the same sort of reaction from people who don't or refuse to realize the symbol is thousands of years old and that just before the Nazis started using it, it was a used as a good luck charm by early aviators.

Those are several different symbols and contexts, as such this is not a relatable situation. The Dixie flag refers to ONE specific context and concept: the Confederate states of america... which primary interest was keeping slavery viable in the southern states. Its symbolic purpose was the discrimination of an entire race of people. That, regardless of what you might want to believe in, that IS what many people feel when they view it. Saying "I don't think so" doesn't change anything.

You don't pay much attention and/or you have a short memory. I have endured these garbage accusations before. More intelligent people than you have figured out that I am no troll, and that at the very least, I have thought very hard about most all I say.

What is actually going on is that my consistency and fairness are crashing hard into your brainwashing and failure to comprehend what I wrote. I am sure it hurts your head, but that is life.

That's completely laughable assertion coming from you. Your whole posting Modus Operendi since you joined is to ignore any reasonable argument and assert you're the grand arbiter of truth and justice. You're nothing of the sort... the whole porn actress thread is a testament to that. I believe that view is shared by most on here given the despair aired by individuals who have reasonable and well informed views.Your general response to them is to claim you're smarter and know better, and then wrapping yourself up in the noble justification that you're fighting "discrimination." Its a completely laughable claim when you're here in this thread defending one of the most vivid symbols of discrimination in the modern era.

Actually I find you utterly vain and exceptionally closed minded.... frankly, you have displayed no exceptional or unique intelligence, except in your almost complete inability to understand and accept the views of others.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

You don't? For someone of such superior intelligence its a pretty simple argument.

Just because you strung words together does not mean they are comprehesible. I did not understand what you were trying to say. I don't read minds. I read words. And yours were not well strung together. For example it was not clear if you believed the word "misconstrue" or if you were approaching it from my point of view.

Zorro: Self Proclaimed defender of all those oppressed (including the vast legions of former porn actresses)
Dixie Flag: Symbol of Oppression to millions of blacks in America.
Zorro: Defends the right to fly the Dixie flag because it doesn't represent that to him.
Noyhauser: You're a hypocrite.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

Yes, I know many Blacks and others view it differently. But should I change my views to match theirs?? I think not. There is more to the flag and to the Confederacy than slavery. Its a fact. Recognizing facts does not make me a hypocrite.

I don't fly the flag because people (like you) will presume its meaning to me. I advise no one to fly that flag for the same reason. But I will (unlike you and others) not presume its meaning to one who flies it. In fact, I may have the gall to ask!

Those are several different symbols and contexts, as such this is not a relatable situation. The Dixie flag refers to ONE specific context and concept: the Confederate states of america... which primary interest was keeping slavery viable in the southern states. Its symbolic purpose was the discrimination of an entire race of people. That, regardless of what you might want to believe in, that IS what many people feel when they view it. Saying "I don't think so" doesn't change anything.

Not all Southerners who fought in the Civil War did so on the grounds of defending slavery. That would be Northern (victor) propaganda that got written into history.

Its symbolic purpose was the discrimination of an entire race of people.

You chose what suits you and disgard the rest.

And your insults and barbs are a bunch of bitter schlock.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

The display of the Confederate flag is a highly controversial topic, generally because of disagreement over its symbolism.

Supporters of the flag view it as a symbol of southern heritage and the independence of the distinct cultural tradition of the South from the North. Some groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist groups such as the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan,[26] whose own Nazi-inspired symbology is largely banned in modern Germany.

For some, the flag represents only a past era of southern sovereignty.[27] Some historical societies such as the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy also use the flag as part of their symbols. Some rockabilly fans hold the Confederate flag as their emblem as well.[28]

As a result of these varying perceptions, there have been a number of political controversies surrounding the use of the Confederate flag in Southern state flags, at sporting events, at Southern universities, and on public buildings. According to Civil War historian and native Southerner Shelby Foote, the flag traditionally represented the South's resistance to Northern political dominance; it became racially charged during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s, when fighting against desegregation suddenly became the focal point of that resistance.[citation needed]

Symbols of the Confederacy remain a contentious issue across the United States and their civic placement has been debated vigorously in many Southern state legislatures since the 1990s.[citation needed] Supporters have labeled attempts to display the flag as an exercise of free speech in response to bans in some schools and universities, but have not always been successful in court [29] when attempting to use this justification.

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not stand by this wiki exerpt 100 percent, but you take one side of the issue and I accept them all. And you have the nerve to accuse me of discrimination?

People like you are all for things like free speech, just as long its your speech that's free and not others you disagree with.

One day, if you think on this more, you may realize there are more things that separate the North from the South than just slavery, and its sad that I, a Northerner have to be the one to try and educate you on that simple fact. Southerners are proud of all those other differences, and many are ashamed of slavery. Sad that you have to be so blinded by a single issue and demand that a flag symbolize but one thing. You will not get anywhere with a mind that cannot hold more than one concept at a time.

So tell me this: do you dispute Shelby Foote in that the Confederate flag was not racially charged until the 50s and 60s?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I find this pretty entertaining to read, but I can't really take any of it seriously when it lacks common sense.

I can't endeavor to assume I know what the entire community is thinking, but I find it amusing that you think you can do just that. That said, of those people that I know personally, the vast majority of them do not suffer the same heart ache and confusion about their mission. They are not brainwashed with eyes glazed over, instead they believe in what they are doing and do their job professionally.

I find it distasteful that someone that has not been there nor has an understanding of the importance of what they are doing has the nerve to insult people that risk their lives every day because out country deems it necessary. Sit down any random child with a soldier and a forum troll and ask them to tell you who is more honorable. I am pretty sure your going to get the right answer just about all of the time. If you have a problem with foreign policy, you should criticize the policy makers, not those that have an duty to follow those orders. There is no honor in making a fool of yourself.

This not about ME Brian Lewis. There is not one claim to my honor in this whole GD thread. Why do I even have to point that out. This is about what they are doing, which I find to be foolhardy and lacking in enough critical thought to be be deemed honorable.

If you have a problem with foreign policy, you should criticize the policy makers, not those that have an duty to follow those orders.

That is it in a nutshell, thank you for being so very very wrong. I have a problem with both those who screw up our foreign policy and those who follow their orders out of a misguided sense of duty and help them screw up our foreign policy.

I find it dishonorable to have a duty to people and government rather than PRINCIPLES. Is it so hard to grasp that PRINCIPLES must come first?? Anything else is the road to dishonor at the very least.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

Your position is not one of courage, it's one of ignorance.

It seems you are making a stand for the sake of making a stand - to make a scene - like a clown in a circus.

you call it a foreign meddling war.... It's almost as if you believe that lines drawn on a map have any impact whatsoever on criminal and narco-terrorist organisations.

Are you really of the opinion that these organisations should be able to operate with complete impunity, because a couple of hundered years ago the British empire drew some lines on paper?

are you THAT dumb?

do you think these people want to be your friend?

they are only fighting because the soldiers are there?

if they could push a button - and pressing that button would kill you. they would press it.

 

[Hezam]

if they could push a button - and pressing that button would kill you. they would press it.

And you call him " Ignorant " while your statement above shows how ignorant you are.. wake up dude

 

[nahadef]

Will the Americans consider Bush's Crusade an embarrassment of their history ?

I already had this discussion with you. Bush was not good with words. He didn't know what crusade met when he said it that one time he said it. He was scolded, and never used it again. Seriously, he was dumb, he literally didn't know there was a difference between Sunni and Shia.

 

[nahadef]

And you call him " Ignorant " while your statement above shows how ignorant you are.. wake up dude

Are you defending the Taliban?! Geez...

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I am not going to name names, but its a fool who thinks that criticism of foreign troops in Afghanistan is the same as a love for the Taliban.

Okay, well, it could be a devious strawman, but I doubt that.

Could we just chuck that garbage in the bin please?

I think it would be best for the coalition and Northern Alliance to win this war, say, tomorrow. Better yet, say, 10 years ago. But its not going to happen. A vote for either side is a vote to continue the war indefinitely. Can't you people see this?

The absolute most important thing is for this conflict to end. I never liked the Taliban, but they were not THAT bad until foreign troops came and started shooting at them and killing their leaders. The REAL monster was made this way. And shooting at them more is not going to make them demure or stop and think. It sure as hell won't make them go away.

Better to be accused of not lifting a finger to help than be fairly accused of recklessly killing children.

I have been saying all this from day one. Those who know me from JT know that my tune has never changed, and that was since 2005 that I posted on JT.

 

[nahadef]

I am not going to name names, but its a fool who thinks that criticism of foreign troops in Afghanistan is the same as a love for the Taliban.

Go for it. Name names. The Taliban have made clear the hate and loathing they feel for all that have a different point of than them. And they are the ones being fought in Afghanistan.
Hezam calls Sevenstars ignorant for thinking the Taliban wants to kill others. Actually, they have killed, and have publicly promised as such in the future. Why it is that use of the name Taliban is directly connected to the troops there, I don't know. It seemed to me that was a digression from the main topic.

 

[Hezam]

I already had this discussion with you. Bush was not good with words. He didn't know what crusade met when he said it that one time he said it. He was scolded, and never used it again. Seriously, he was dumb, he literally didn't know there was a difference between Sunni and Shia.

Bin Laden was not good with words either , Does that make you understand his actions ? If the president of the USA says such BS then what about his army ? I can't find any excuses for him however i try, Not to mention making weapons with words/phrases from the Bible and sending religious men/women to preach in Afghanistan and Iraq, It's clearly a Crusade with all the meaning of the word and in a modern style.

Are you defending the Taliban?! Geez...

I don't agree with their way of rule, As you may know the TV is not allowed under their rule ( According to Western resources not Taliban ) and i find it very crazy when you forbid TV ! just example because there are many things that i cant accept.
But i fully support Taliban to defend their Land and their people against a foreign war.

 

[nahadef]

You don't know what a crusade is then. There is a big difference between soldiers being Christian, and a Christian war. You may as well say every Muslim in the US military is committing jihad, and that would be pretty dumb to say...

And defending the Taliban... That's pretty sad. Iraq was completely illegal.", but the Taliban asked for it. That's for another topic though...

 

[Mark of Zorro]

You may as well say every Muslim in the US military is committing jihad, and that would be pretty dumb to say...

No...it wouldn't. I am sure they would be proud to say that their military service was an act of jihad.

And defending the Taliban... That's pretty sad. Iraq was completely illegal.", but the Taliban asked for it.

The Taliban did not ask for it. They were given a bullcrap ultimatum from Bush and they refused, no surprise.

There was zero reason to attack the Taliban or try regime change. The whole foreign response to the Taliban was stupid from the get go. What we wanted was bin Laden and some others. That is all. But we made war on a separate group merely for refusing to do our dirty work since the U.S. would not provide any proof against their "guest". Bush just said "cough him up or die". Would the U.S. oblige such an ultimatum? F no!

And in the end, what happened to bin Laden? Did they get him in a battle of armies? No. They sent in a small team of highly trained specialists. They should have done that from the start, not in Pakistan, but in Afghanistan.

Making this far bigger than it ever needed to be got so many innocents killed. It was predictable from the start. And that is why I say it is dishonorable.

After all, if you want to catch a fugitive, or even kill him, why go out of your way to shoot his friends? Shoot them if they shoot at you, but why go out and confront them directly? Did it get us bin Laden? No. Naturally.

And we got bin Laden. We got everybody SUSPECTED of involvment in 9/11. So what are we still doing in Afghanistan? Sticking our noses in a civil war that's what. Our noses don't belong there.

 

[nahadef]

So, Zorro, do you think the jihadists in the American Army are part of the Crusade Hezam speaks of? And I still thinks its pretty dumb to say...

 

[alecgraham]

Bin Laden was not good with words either

Really? I read that Bin Laden's Arabic was very eloquent and that he was quite erudite. Maybe it was the translator who was lacking? Saddam's Arabic (and education in general) was bad. He was more of a simple thug compared to Bin Laden. It's too bad BL didn't stay on our side.

(Taliban)
I don't agree with their way of rule, As you may know the TV is not allowed under their rule ( According to Western resources not Taliban ) and i find it very crazy when you forbid TV ! just example because there are many things that i cant accept.
But i fully support Taliban to defend their Land and their people against a foreign war.

Hezam, you should really start a thread on this fascinating topic. If you don't agree with their rule, I'm not sure why you would be against a foreign invasion. Let's discuss.