母は私を塾へ行かせました
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epigene
相変わらず不束者です
- 10 Nov 2004
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If the question is restricted to which of に or を is correct, the answer is を
However, I think usage of 行かせる・行かせました is restricted to speaking to a third party about what the mother did to the child, so the sentence itself (use of 私 ) is awkward.
More correctly, it should be:
母はあの子を塾へ行かせました。
The choice between に・へ that Elizabeth mentions is also possible.
epigene
相変わらず不束者です
- 10 Nov 2004
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だからこそ、「私」を使うのは不自然ではありませんか？
この設定では、「私」が出てくるのはおかしいです。
Edit: If the original intention of the sentence was: My mother forced me to go to juku, it would be clearer to say:
私は、母に塾へ行かせられました。（I avoided the redundant use of に here.)
Sorry, Elizabeth, I don't understand what you're getting at. (Probably because it's past bedtime...
) The two sentences you wrote are both basically wrong. Oh, if you're talking about the choice between に and へ both can be used, although the first one suggests "destination as a function (for the purpose of study)" while the second suggests a geographical location (the place where the juku is located).
If this isn't what you meant, you'll have to wait until I get a good night's sleep (or someone else posts before me)!
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Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
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その母親は塾に行かせました。」または「その母親は塾へ行かせました。
And it's too early from not neeearly enough sleep here.
But I wasn't getting at the に/へ thing as much as a vague feeling of having seen sentences like these somewhere. With the context of third (or multi) party proceedings, they were clearly written from an outsiders perspective. But 私は塾へ行かせました。is also OK talking about yourself with the child implied ?
And 子供は学校に行かせました。」または「子供は学校へ行かせました。are incorrect ? :?
（子供は学校へ行きたくないのかな）の場合には....
And it's too early from not neeearly enough sleep here.
But I wasn't getting at the に/へ thing as much as a vague feeling of having seen sentences like these somewhere. With the context of third (or multi) party proceedings, they were clearly written from an outsiders perspective. But 私は塾へ行かせました。is also OK talking about yourself with the child implied ? And 子供は学校に行かせました。」または「子供は学校へ行かせました。are incorrect ? :?
（子供は学校へ行きたくないのかな）の場合には....
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- 22 Feb 2008
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Hmm, 母は私を塾へ/に行かせました is acceptable to me.
母は私を（無理矢理）塾へ行かせました。それは私のことを思ってのことでした。今では母に感謝しています。。。
母は私を（無理矢理）塾へ行かせました。それは私のことを思ってのことでした。今では母に感謝しています。。。
No, they are correct even for the case the child want to go. 子供は学校に行かせました can express the perfect tense or もう学校に行かせてしまいました.
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
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子供には塾に行かせました。
1.)Is には acceptable pointing to the object in the sense of "for the sake of the son/for the son's own good" we/someone made him go to cram school ?
子供のために塾に行かせました。First of all, it looks neater to me with this grammar (at least in writing).
2.)母は私に塾へ行かせました(行かせてくれた). We've had this discussion previous.
And I understand (no thanks to the mistaken textbook
that 子供を学校に行かせる, for instance, can have the nuance of both "make" or "let/allow" depending on the context.
But there are situations emphasizing the causee, ie who is made to go outside : the child
母は 子供 に外へ行かせました
Why isn't 母は 子供 に塾へ行かせました a pattern that is essentially the same as the pattern described above ?
And while we are at it, why isn't it "allowed to go" after all ? 子供に外へ行かせました(行かせてくれた) ??
1.)Is には acceptable pointing to the object in the sense of "for the sake of the son/for the son's own good" we/someone made him go to cram school ?
子供のために塾に行かせました。First of all, it looks neater to me with this grammar (at least in writing).
2.)母は私に塾へ行かせました(行かせてくれた). We've had this discussion previous.
And I understand (no thanks to the mistaken textbook
that 子供を学校に行かせる, for instance, can have the nuance of both "make" or "let/allow" depending on the context.But there are situations emphasizing the causee, ie who is made to go outside : the child
母は 子供 に外へ行かせました
Why isn't 母は 子供 に塾へ行かせました a pattern that is essentially the same as the pattern described above ?
And while we are at it, why isn't it "allowed to go" after all ? 子供に外へ行かせました(行かせてくれた) ??
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- 22 Feb 2008
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には would be more likely the contrastive marker in that case.
（私は行けなかったけど/から、）子供には塾に行かせました。
The situation provided by the context is different. 彼女は子供に行かせました emphasizes that it is the child she made go, for instance, instead of herself. On the other hand, as for 彼女は子供に塾へ行かせました, it's hard to think of the equivalent to the child.2.)母は私に塾へ行かせました(行かせてくれた). We've had this discussion previous.
And I understand (no thanks to the mistaken textbook
But there are situations emphasizing the causee, ie who is made to go outside : the child
母は 子供 に外へ行かせました
Why isn't 母は 子供 に塾へ行かせました a pattern that is essentially the same as the pattern described above ?
Generally, 行かせてあげました is used for "allowed to go."
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Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
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That wasn't the best example I suppose. It would almost have to be a special case of 私に塾へ行かせました or あの子, as epigene-san's example.
- 22 Feb 2008
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It should be 私/あの子を塾へ行かせました, as epigene-san stated. 子供に行かせる is more likely a special case of 行かせる.
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
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- 135
Hehe. We definitely appear to be going around in circles.
What I did mean actually was an example to tweak with your previous one:
彼女/弟君は 私/あの子に塾へ行かせました
undrentide
Japa'n vagyok
- 18 Jan 2006
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Hehe. We definitely appear to be going around in circles.
What I did mean actually was an example to tweak with your previous one:
彼女/弟君は 私/あの子に塾へ行かせました
While ～を塾に行かせる is a simple statement, ～に塾に行かせる sounds more like there's hidden implication such as ～の代わりに on behalf of.
I believe this is what Toritoribe san is saying by
- 22 Feb 2008
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It totally depends on the verb or context. There is no problem with に in, for instance, 彼女は子供に新聞を持ってこさせた.
epigene
相変わらず不束者です
- 10 Nov 2004
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いや～、すみませんでした。I don't see anything wrong with it now that I'm clear-minded!
I have a feeling that I was probably thinking only of the case of one instance of the mother sending off the person to juku--on a certain day, for instance. Still, it goes to show you shouldn't be posting when you're already half-asleep...
It seems now that the thread is off on a different tangent?
Chidoriashi
In imagination land
- 2 Feb 2007
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- 63
This discussion brings back bad memories for me. I always thought this could get confusing.. so I have done my best to block it from my memory, and avoid using this grammar. (or use it with as few particles and nouns as possible to remain ambiguous, but at the same time technically not make any mistakes, but I would like to ask now just to be clear.
母は私を学校へ行かせました。 The mother is the clear causer here.
母は私に学校へ行かせました。 As with this one too.
But your above example.. 子供は学校に行かせました。, here the causer 母 or whoever is omitted. But shouldn't the sentence be passive now?? as in 子供･私は（誰かに）学校に行かせられました。？
Otherwise how can one distinct causer and causee（other than by common sense)? If not.. is 母は学校に行かせた strange then if 子供は学校に行かせた is acceptable? meaning( 私･子供を・に） cannot be omitted in the first sentence?
- 22 Feb 2008
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Yeah, indeed it's confusing. 
I interpreted Elizabeth-san's example sentence as a spoken word.
A: 今家には誰もいないんですか？
B: ええ、誰もいません。子供は（もう）学校に行かせまし た。
the causer: the speaker B, the causee: 子供
A: 今家には誰もいないんですか？
B: ええ、誰もいません。子供は学校に行かせられました/行かされました。
the causer: someone else, the causee: 子供
子供 is the topic of 子供は学校に行かせました, thus, the sentence is used to describe the child's state (e.g. what s/he does, where s/he is). So if the child is the causer, the cousee can't be omitted in most cases, as in 子供は隣の子を学校に行かせました.
I interpreted Elizabeth-san's example sentence as a spoken word.A: 今家には誰もいないんですか？
B: ええ、誰もいません。子供は（もう）学校に行かせまし た。
the causer: the speaker B, the causee: 子供
A: 今家には誰もいないんですか？
B: ええ、誰もいません。子供は学校に行かせられました/行かされました。
the causer: someone else, the causee: 子供
子供 is the topic of 子供は学校に行かせました, thus, the sentence is used to describe the child's state (e.g. what s/he does, where s/he is). So if the child is the causer, the cousee can't be omitted in most cases, as in 子供は隣の子を学校に行かせました.
