Discrimination/racism in Japan vs non-Japan

[MadamePapillon]

However, English is the most filthy of all languages on the planet with a over 10,000 words in its lexicon making it seemingly impossible for the language learner to grasp the real meaning of words !

Your ignorance makes me laugh. So because English has so many words and meanings it must be a dirty, impossible language?
I've met all sorts of people from all across the world and they seem to have no problem communicating effectively in English to me. In addition to that the great majority of scientific articles and texts are written in English (about 90%), making it clear that English is a more than learnable and effective language.
....Also, the English word count is closer to over 300,000.

English is versatile because it's bad, not because it's good. There needs to be a standard English that we all can communicate with with less ambigious terms and less idioms.

How is versatile bad exactly? Versatile is generally seen as a good thing as it makes it easy to completely express yourself without misunderstanding.
And it's called simplified English, yes, it does exist.

The English language is also limited to literary interpretation of poems, arts, and philosophy, and no matter how many times you translate or transliterate something from a pure language down to English, English just dilutes the real meaning and content.

It is possible in English to translate something directly as is from a foreign language but the fact remains that it would sound as unnatural as if I spoke Japanese using English word order and context.
English also works extremely well in a literary sense, hence the immense amounts of books, poems, plays ect.
Ever read The Raven? If not I suggest you do then come back and tell me if such a thing could be translated effectively into Japanese without meanings and subtleties being lost. Mistranslation is a two way street.

Everything moves through the medium of language even how we behave and express our feelings and attitudes. English is bad for Japan for that reason.

English is used across the world to make communication easier, not to accomadate the cultural nuances of the Japanese language. You are surprisingly arrogant. But if it means that much to you, English has a ton of obscure words that you can use to make yourself better understood, but maybe in a not so subtle way.
A pox upon you and your house, vile, cankerous swine. ...See.
Or you can do like Mars Man and use language that expresses the users knowledge and obvious grasp of the scientific and literary world. It's all about word choice and, if nothing else, English has tons of words, once you know how to use them you can say and mean anything. English is not lacking in expression and attitude, even for foreign speakers,...as you have already displayed with many of your posts

 

[The7thSamurai]

Chi65, you make a good point about aborigines being expected to live only under the "whitey's" rules. It is totally understandable that they might feel hard done by and you would be a fool to say that European settlement and culture in Australia had a devistating effect on the way they aborigines lived. However, to really and truely better themselves they will have to acknowledge this and, dare I say, move past it. Easier said that done, sure, but the reality is that Australia is now a nation built on white European culture. It is an enormous ask on their part and I understand how difficult it must be for them, but fair or not, there really is no choice.

One way to put their struggle in perspective is to look at Europe now and how it's going to be in 100 years or so. Over the next century European women will slowly but surely become second class citizens as Islam takes hold. Women in Europe are going to have to accept this sooner or later - it comes as part of a transition in culture. The sheer strength it's going to take for European woman, who for a long time have enjoyed freedoms, to accept their fate is similar to the new and dominant culture is similar to how the aborigines are going to have to accept and become part of the this so called "whitey" culture.

 

[Chi65]

Chi65, you make a good point about aborigines being expected to live only under the "whitey's" rules. It is totally understandable that they might feel hard done by and you would be a fool to say that European settlement and culture in Australia had a devistating effect on the way they aborigines lived. However, to really and truely better themselves they will have to acknowledge this and, dare I say, move past it. Easier said that done, sure, but the reality is that Australia is now a nation built on white European culture. It is an enormous ask on their part and I understand how difficult it must be for them, but fair or not, there really is no choice.

Well, I have a different view, but it may take some time.
As long as the whitey's assimilate, rather than listen to the other side first, there will always be a very legitimite struggle. And I even hope so and would be on the Aborigine's side even, same as my uncle. And I am by far not alone with this. However much I like many Australians, and my own daughter loved to live there on and off, yet came with the video from Australia, with the mentioned film, tears in her eyes.
Both sides will have to learn, not just one.

One way to put their struggle in perspective is to look at Europe now and how it's going to be in 100 years or so. Over the next century European women will slowly but surely become second class citizens as Islam takes hold. Women in Europe are going to have to accept this sooner or later - it comes as part of a transition in culture. The sheer strength it's going to take for European woman, who for a long time have enjoyed freedoms, to accept their fate is similar to the new and dominant culture is similar to how the aborigines are going to have to accept and become part of the this so called "whitey" culture.

Sorry, I live in the middle of a very islamic part of Berlin and have no problems with them, in contrary. And I also attended Sufi-centers (amongst many other centers of different points of views around the wolrd) in younger years, in fact in UK, and they were open for women alike, as much as some also opened up in islamic countries. Also many islamic young women here would not wish to go back to any kind of fundamentalism, no way.
We are in a pressure cooker time for all parts, not just one, and do not yet know, what comes out of this, but I cannot see your vision at all, sorry.
Most younger ones will not let it after all the open windows to the rest of the world and worldwide discussions, like here. It may get stuck in those countries, who close such windows, but that will not be here.
Insofar I welcome other influences and compare them etc., like many of my international friends too.
We all make mistakes and can now talk about them worldwide.
Actually, in Japan I was heartily welcomed by an australian aborigine journalist, who was also higly appreciated by my japanese friends. She was wonderfull, and we had a good time, and her present for my opening of a local exhibition, a fish from the nearby pool, that she caught herself, was delicious and shared amongst us all. So what. We had no problems at all, in contrary.

Next time you can join us, with or without any belief-system and any colour you like to have.
Can you sing? Even better

Or how about a walkabout through japanese mountains?

 

[Sensationalist]

...See.
Or you can do like Mars Man and use language that expresses the users knowledge and obvious grasp of the scientific and literary world. It's all about word choice and, if nothing else, English has tons of words, once you know how to use them you can say and mean anything. English is not lacking in expression and attitude, even for foreign speakers,...as you have already displayed with many of your posts

I would like to educate you more on this subject but since the mod specifically stated that there should be no further discussion on this subject, I will refrain. But on a quick note: obviously you have no experience in the ESL industry becuase if you did you'd understand that just because a person can speak English doesn't mean that person is understanding you the way you think they are. This problem has a lot to do with register and how people use English when saying words. Understanding idioms is another problem too. And you haven't travelled as much as you stated either because if you did you'd know that what I am saying is true, especially in asian countries.

 

[MadamePapillon]

What you said is true, every language is spoken differently and it's not simply about the words. This is the reason for simplified English in global communication.
This doesn't change the fact that I have met people from all across Asia, some that could barely speak a word of English and others who spoke it as well as any native speaker. It is possible for someone who was born and raised in Asia to become a more than fluent speaker of English, such as this girl from China I knew from college. She swore like a sailor, used slang, and had more attitude than half the class put together.
What I was trying to get across is that it is possible to fully speak and understand the language and express yourself in any way you choose once you know how to speak English at a certain level of profficiency, even if you do come from an Asian country. It's harder, but not impossible, to become fully fluent.

http://www.vec.ca/english/11/idioms.cfm

 

[Chi65]

Is this topic related?. . .

 

[centrajapan]

Pleease:
No race riots in scandinavia??
OK, not directly, but what about the danish islam-comix and thus the islamic (over-) reactions?
OK, the islamic people were definitely completely without humour, but the mockery surely did not come from love or acceptance either. .

People have a right to freedom of speech. Muslims in Scandinavia reacted completely different than in Iran or in the Middle East. The key point here is that it is the media that make that decision – not the authorities. The leading Muslim communities in Norway condemned violence and harassment too.

The French philosopher Voltaire put it like this: ﾂ"I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.ﾂ"

So yeah we havent had race riots like in Australia. But no it is not completely problem free.

Muslims in Scandinavia were offended twice. First by the picture then by people burning the Scandinavian flags.

 

[Mars Man]

OK...things go, and things come. I will give one more drift of fresh air here to see if the topic on hand, can get back on topic. The discussion is, in the best definition, about discrimination--in-group .vs. out-group--and that of Japan as opposed to other countries.

 

[Chi65]

I would like to give another small example, just a little event, maybe:

There was a Matsuri in a bigger town and I realised, that I did not have enough film material with me. I was the only foreigner around, although it was a very big festival.
I asked a japanese fotographer, if he could help me out and sell maybe one film, but he was not friendly and denied to even relate to me any further. He stayed as ignored by the others then.
Some other watchers realised this and immediately asked me, if they could buy me some, they knew a shop near by. I was very happy and wanted to give them some money before, but they said, no no, after, and how many films?
And then two people ran away after asking me to wait, which I did. I got my films soon after and payed them and of course, I was very happy! So were they.
Since I was at this festival till late, people showed me around, kindly asked others to stay out of my focus, when active etc., and let me take fotos about everything I wanted, also backstages. And I also got a fine brush full of holy water over me, which under laughter was explained as bringing luck and congrats from alll sides etc. etc.

Being a bit tired in the end, with a lot of playfull communication behind, I sat down on big stairs overlooking the scenery on the shrine ground, where they had their storages for the big floats, and had two people sitting beside me soon after, some that accompanied the floats before and knew me already. One jumped up after a while and came back with something to eat. I was told, that I must be hungry by now, and its right, I forgot all about my stomach! Then they showed me two festival scarfs and asked me to choose one, they almost forced it onto me, and I really liked the most typical one there and they decorated me with it as present, no but and if.
On other festivals I was served beer, icecream, whatever was in their bags, be it just for a small question or chat with me, BTW, seemed to be a nice habit.

And also, on this one, there was a man, trying to make fotos from me. It ended up in a lot of laughter, from people around as well, because he was very nice and we kind of tried to trick each other by doing a snapshot in an unexpected moment. I will never forget his face thus. Playing games is my thing. I'll be right in!

With some other words about the first one, that one was one of very few negative experiences, but the relation to good ones was mostly as described (which is, why I am posting this here). 1 to I don't remember any more, how many. . .and furthermore, being around as a woman on my own, I had the very same experience.
In Korea, they were very eager to marry me to someone, to make me (even) more happy, as they said, hehe. But that was not the japanese game though, I am glad! Its even surprisingly safe for women to travel around, very recommended indeed!
The best country in this relation so far, no joke!
It just has to be said in all honesty, despite whatever there may be.

 

[caster51]

Discrimination/racism in Japan vs non-Japan

The waise man learns from the history, and the fool learns from experience....

Bismarck was clver

If white's history is basically seen, it is likely to understand.

When did the black ppl obtain the suffrage even if they said democracy or westernized?

 

[centrajapan]

Many muslims also bring to Australia and raise in their kids the idea that they are superior because of their religion, and that others are simply "kaffir", unworthy of life. And this is where the problem lies.

haha.

'DID YOU KNOW ABOUT ALL THESE MUSLIMS?'
ASKS BISHOP

"Apparently there are thousands of them going around being all Muslim and stuff," says senior cleric.

 

[Sarapva]

When did the black ppl obtain the suffrage even if they said democracy or westernized?

Do you mean blacks in the U.S. (descended from slaves taken from Africa in the 1700-1800s)? It was in the 1960s that schools finally became integrated with both black and white students (before that there had been black schools and white schools). I'm not as sure about when blacks were first allowed to vote - probably '50s-'60s. Before that, everything had been segregated - blacks had to sit at the back of buses, had separate schools, couldn't go into certain stores. There were signs on drinking waterfountains that said "Whites only" and "Coloreds only".

One of the terms people used to use (and still do in some places, mostly the south) for a black person is "colored", but that has negative connotations and gradually people have come around to saying "black" or the more politically correct "African American".

There was a famous incident in the '50s-'60s where Rosa Parks, a black woman, refused to sit in the back of a bus. This was the beginning of getting more rights for blacks.

I was always taught by my parents that everyone is the same, no matter what the color of your skin. By the time I was in school they were integrated, and I grew up with black and white friends and hardly even noticed if a person was black or white.

 

[Chi65]

And we live with many muslims and other foreigners of all colours in our part of Berlin and had many festivities together, also prepaired...just to say, it IS possible, and very interesting to share this.
The last time I worked in a multicultural center, it was one, that was run by a very nice ethiopian. My job was a schoolproject about Japan. . .its still alive.

 

[Taiko666]

There are people in L.A. who only speak Spanish, but yet they can work and own homes without ever having to use English their whole lives !

So we agree. Not needing English is NOT unique to the Japanese.

I also never suggested that the Japanese need to know English. Please read posts carefully.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

You never have race riots in Scandinavia. Not like the one in Australia. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in Scandinavia.

Racism exists in many places around the world.

In Japan, it appears to be hidden when it is convenient, and vica-versa when not.

The worst racism I can remember was in South Africa under apartheid.

That was really bad..

In Thailand, it is against the ethnic Hilltribe groups, and Burmese.

In Japan, it appears to be against Koreans, Brazillians, Peruvian, Chinese, South east Asian, Russian, sometimes Australia, American and possibly British, did I miss any?

 

[caster51]

I dont know why there are two price lists for Japanese in other developrd country

For Example, hotel..
Do not you obviously think this to be discrimination?

 

[Calchas]

Do you mean blacks in the U.S. (descended from slaves taken from Africa in the 1700-1800s)? It was in the 1960s that schools finally became integrated with both black and white students (before that there had been black schools and white schools). I'm not as sure about when blacks were first allowed to vote - probably '50s-'60s......

Black men had the right to vote shortly after the Civil War but "southern backlash" created Jim Crow laws which made it harder for Blacks to use their right to vote.

During the reconstrution era there where many Black men holding office in the south. Jim Crow changed all that.....

 

[Astroboy]

Racism exists in many places around the world.

In Japan, it appears to be hidden when it is convenient, and vica-versa when not.

The worst racism I can remember was in South Africa under apartheid.

That was really bad..

In Thailand, it is against the ethnic Hilltribe groups, and Burmese.

In Japan, it appears to be against Koreans, Brazillians, Peruvian, Chinese, South east Asian, Russian, sometimes Australia, American and possibly British, did I miss any?

True.

The United Nations Human Rights Commission made its strongest condemnation of human rights violations in Germany since World War II with the release of its annual human rights report. Four pages of the document, released in Geneva, are devoted to human rights abuses and discrimination by government bodies and officials against members of the Church of Scientology.

World Leaders Call for Action Against German Discrimination | Freedom Magazine
http://www.humanrights-germany.org/about/shocking.htm
http://eupolitics.einnews.com/news/germany-discrimination

Life in Germany must not be easy yet.

I remember that Jewish was discriminated due to their religion. AMEN.

 

[butakun]

Oh no, here we go. Church of Scientology.... Let's not go there....

 

[A ke bono kane kotto]

Racism isn't the same as discrimnation. Racists want to exterminate or dominate (some) other races. Discrimination can be such a benign thing as not let you enter a nightclub because they don't like your face (even if you are not ethnically different from the bouncer)

 

[Chi65]

I dont know why there are two price lists for Japanese in other developrd country
For Example, hotel..
Do not you obviously think this to be discrimination?

Sorry, Caster, this escaped me, but is interesting.
Does it help your tears, if I say, that in China they (for long at least) also had different prices for foreigners in general in their hotels?

This had more a reason in assuming, that foreigners were simply richer, an assumption, that was not even wrong about many first visitors!
Also many of these visitors behaved badly and arrogant.

From my experiences, it always changed drasticaly, when they realised, that I came alone and could speak their language, and was obviously not arrogant. . .thus it was not racism.

Maybe the same can be said about Japanese travelling in other countries?

I do not know, if anything similar was done in Japan for foreign visitors, but it could well have been at times, if you ask me.

It wasn't though, when I visited. But I mostly stayed at friends places anyhow, and you know yourself, who is a friend of friends in Japan, is usually treated equally and expected to know some basic rules of everyday life, in general. No racism there either.

 

[Glenski]

I dont know why there are two price lists for Japanese in other developrd country
For Example, hotel..
Do not you obviously think this to be discrimination?

Where have you seen that, caster?

Sounds like the 2 prices many/most travel agents in Japan charge whether you are a foreigner or Japanese. Or didn't you know that?

 

[caster51]

Where have you seen that, caster?

korean hotel's web.








after that, some Japanese claimed about the price to hotel.
hotel explained There is a difference in the tax.
" why is there a difference in the tax"

then it was corrected by many claim

 

[Chidoriashi]

Caster, not that I doubt your claims, because it is totally plausible, but those pictures are really hard to see. Can you provide a better image. Cuz it looks like the Koreans are paying the most at 190,000 wan

 

[undrentide]

Chidoriashi, maybe you're looking at the resized photos.
If you click the message shown above each photo, you can see their original size version which show the prices clearly.
I've never heard of such double-standard (?) prices for hotels, but as far as I see these 3 photos, English versions and Korean versions shows
Standard Single 140,000 won
Corner Single 120,000 won
while Japanese one shows
Standard Single 187,000 won
Corner Single 154,000 won

I'm not sure if these different price lists are intentional or just they forgot to revise Japanese version.