Discrimination/racism in Japan vs non-Japan

[Astroboy]

Personally I believe .... the rest of the world, except Japan or some others, is quite strict on religion.

I was very surprised to see TV program featuring US Christian fundamentalists. They were strong supprter of G. W. Bush.

Jewish and Islamic are often dominated by fundamentalists.

They continue to bash each other by telling "My God is the best, but yours are not". I think there must be something religous aspect behind the racism/discrimination.

Japanese are quite flexible about religious thing, and in fact I and my family do not belong to any religious group.

 

[nice gaijin]

..Meaning that racism in Japan/discrimination is useful but comparison is useless? If you are interested in Japan's racsim/discrimination only, please stay in the thread "Racism in Japan/discrimination".

You misunderstood me. I never said there was any use for racism. I said that I didn't see the point in trying to compare anecdotes to establish which country has more discrimination than another. The only discussion with any merit is identifying racism and discrimination and working towards eliminating it, not trying to claim the title of "more/less racist than some other country."

You said you're an "ordinary Japanese," what is that supposed to mean, that you believe in nihonjinron? (it's not that I believe that the average Japanese believes in nihonjinron, but that to make such a statement, it seems that you do) I think it'd be fair to say that you haven't experienced discrimination as an "ordinary Japanese" in Japan; have you been to any other country and experienced discrimination? What gives you the authority to say whether Japan is more or less racist than the next country? Again, what is the point of making such claims?

 

[centrajapan]

10 least religious countries according to this poll.

1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

Least Religious Countries - Gadling

According to this poll Norwegians are the least religious people in Europe and thank god for that.

Norwegians least religious in Europe
A new study suggests that one in 10 Norwegians say they're not religious at all, while most say they're only moderately so. That makes Norwegians the least religious in Europe.
The survey, financed by the European Commission, asked respondents to rank how religious they were on a scale from zero to 10.

Only 9 percent of Norwegians questioned ranked themselves with an "8" or higher, reports newspaper Vaart Land.

None of the other 15 countries participating in the survey scored so low.

Atheism and Agnosticism

As for hating Jews. Europe has been discriminating Jews for centuries. It was very ugly what Europeans were doing. But now due to anti Israelism I hear anti Semitism is yet on the rise. There have been incidents in Norway where the Syngagogue in Oslo was fired with an automatic weapon by extremists.

Christianity has not traditionally been a very tolerant religion.

And the treatment of Palestinians by Israel is also very ugly.

 

[Astroboy]

You said you're an "ordinary Japanese," what is that supposed to mean, that you believe in nihonjinron? (it's not that I believe that the average Japanese believes in nihonjinron, but that to make such a statement, it seems that you do) I think it'd be fair to say that you haven't experienced discrimination as an "ordinary Japanese" in Japan; have you been to any other country and experienced discrimination? What gives you the authority to say whether Japan is more or less racist than the next country? Again, what is the point of making such claims?

Sorry. That was a cynical joke - my habbit.

 

[centrajapan]

What gives you the authority to say whether Japan is more or less racist than the next country? Again, what is the point of making such claims?

It helps to put things in perspective.

 

[MadamePapillon]

They continue to bash each other by telling "My God is the best, but yours are not". I think there must be something religous aspect behind the racism/discrimination.

Japanese are quite flexible about religious thing, and in fact I and my family do not belong to any religious group.

Religious discrimination is a whole other issue. In fact, most religious discrimination could be called outright hatred and intolerence. I think to fully cover the subject you'd probably have to start another thread.

It has little bearing on whether or not someone can be a racist or discriminate against people. Religion doesn't make people intolerent and, likewise, being non-religious doesn't make you more accepting. It really comes down to how much exposure and what sort of experience you've had with people of different races.

Japan is in an interesting position because the majority of it's population is Japanese. It's quite a uniform country in regards to race and I doubt the majority of the Japanese public has had much real contact with foreigners or gotten to truly know anyone from outside of Japan. With an environment like that it's easy to make assumptions about people of other races (I've heard many Japanese would be nervous to meet a black person and consider them violent, despite having never met anyone who was black). Plus foreigners are made out to be dangerous so even having never actually met someone from outside of Japan, I'm sure many Japanese have negative assumptions about what they would be like and be quick to rush to judgement.

It's all about experience and I find it ironic that, even having had such limited contact with the rest of the world, many Japanese are quick to start boldly spouting off untrue assumptions about the western world and (in particular) America.

 

[Astroboy]

10 least religious countries according to this poll.
1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
Least Religious Countries - Gadling

This is an interesting stat. I agree that percentage of believer is important, but at the same time, I often consider the characteristcs of each religion.
And I persoanlly believe .... Japanese Shintoism is a kind of AMINISM, probably the same as local religions in Papua New Guinea and Aboligenies in Asutralia. Although official believers of Shitoism in Japan is quite small, Japanese way of thinking and behaviour are reportedly based and very much influenced by the Shitoism. Animism - Wikipedia

Key of Shitoism is something "Vague" or Not Black and White, I believe. I think such "Vagueness" may help reduce racism/discrimination in Japan. Is this too much consideration?

 

[nice gaijin]

If you insist on linking discrimination to religion, feel free to ask any Japanese Christians what they think about the level of religious tolerance in Japan.

Also, feel free to answer any of my actual questions.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Would you elaborate further,detail some racially-motivated incidents you experienced over there.

Sure Tokapi:

My personal incident was when I went into a small watchmakers jewelelery store in a country town in Nara.

I walked in, called out "Sumi-masen". The shopkeeper came out, said "Hai", then made the hand movements "out-out".

The was purely racial. Being a white Australian so to speak, it didn't affect me so much, although it did bring to light racism.

The same thing had happened to a colleague from California when he went inside a video shop in a Nara country town.

It was all very new to me as I was always trying to be very polite to the local people.

My colleague and I had also finished an English translation of an information booklet for victims of discrimination for the Nara Government.

I had also experienced a man riding a bicycle past me whilst I was walking to work and called out the word "Gaijin".

I have also heard first hand accounts from many friends, colleagues and students who are a mix of full Japanese, half Japanese, and totally foreign.

It is also and issue for persons involved in Japanese/foreign marriages should a divorce ever take place.

I could write a book and the consequences, but I will not elaborate as it's nearly bed time here.

If you a foreigner in Japan, on any type of visa, and will go through a divorce, you may as well kiss everything goodbye, including the children (presuming your partner disagrees with you taking them), and leave.

Your visa will expire. If you try to leave secretly with the children and your Japanese partner contacts the authorities, you will be stopped at the airport, and Jailed for five years for child abduction! Let's not forget they are your own children.

If the Japanese partner does this, it will be fine for the authorities.

If you dissapear in Japan with your children, the same lawas apply as the airport.

If your Japanese partner dissapears in Japan, the longer the worse for the non national, they will automatically be awarded full custody of the children simply because they have become used to living that way!

Bear in mind, a foreigners visa will expire and even if the divorce is going through legal channels, court cases, etc., you will not be awarded another visa and will have to leave the country.

The above is well documented.

It really is a nightmare for any foreigner inside Japan.. Forget any legal issues as ultimately, if you are a non national, you will lose..

Must run, I could document loads of examples here.

I dont think in Japan they go to your house and kick you out of your house, terar down your house and say. This land is Japanese state property.

There is probably alot more stealth racism in US. Racism in a subtle manner difficult to detect than the overt practices of discrimination that once was dominant in US but still there are signs everywhere in US of the social injustice.

Japanese dont go around kidnapping people like US and North Korea either.

It was Australia before! Just don't start on the poor Kangaroos again

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

I think you are missing the point once again Centrajapan.

Discrmination in Japan goes back a long way.

Because of this, I think many Japanese discriminate, without actually realizing they are doing it.

I know many Japanese who also know that discrimination and racism within Japan is their.

I have a good friend in Kyoto . She is from a wealthy upper class family.

I was in the car with her Mum and her one day, and asked her Mum what she would do if her daughter's BF was a Baraku.

Her reply was basicallly NO WAY!

Pretty much proves the point..

Contact the Nara government for an information booklet on the topic. they will hand one to you explaining all..

 

[thatsme]

Hi,
I did go through this thread a bit.
I beielve that all human have a racist tendency, you can use different words they are all semantics, what I am trying to say, that consciously or not we are.
I am not justifing it, I am purely stating a fact.
the above statment it might be too simplistic, but right now I think that there is some true.
any opinion on that?
cheers

 

[Sensationalist]

!

@ Sensationalist
English has become something of a common international language. It's become a communication tool and many many non-english speaking countries use it to converse with people around the world.
This isn't westernization being shoved down anyones throat, it's common sense. With todays world it's logical there would be one language that would be commonly used in international discussion and affairs rather than everyone having to learn 10 different languages. The language picked just happened to be a western one. English is extremely versatile with a wide range of words and sounds (which makes fairly flexible in regards to differing accents). Plus it gives the speaker the ability to be directly to the point with little room for misinterpretation and with no need for honorifics or social and gender distinctions, so it's a fairly logical choice all things considered.

English is the language of Business & Commerce the world over, that can be easily agreed upon. However, English is the most filthy of all languages on the planet with a over 10,000 words in its lexicon making it seemingly impossible for the language learner to grasp the real meaning of words ! How can you expect non-native English speakers to understand subtle nuances in speech, idioms and common registers in English unless they were either born in an English speaking country or spent many years living there ?? It's impossible...and that's partly why the English language is changing...i.e. Singlish, Japlish, Spanglish and every other 'ish' you can name !

English is versatile because it's bad, not because it's good. There needs to be a standard English that we all can communicate with with less ambigious terms and less idioms.
The English language is also limited to literary interpretation of poems, arts, and philosophy, and no matter how many times you translate or transliterate something from a pure language down to English, English just dilutes the real meaning and content. English is far from being the ideal language and it should only be offered as an elective, not a requirement.

As for the western factor, English, like all other languages affect the transmission of culture like all languages have since the beginning of time. Everything moves through the medium of language even how we behave and express our feelings and attitudes. English is bad for Japan for that reason.

As for Business & Commerce it can be a necessary tool for lubricating the wheels of social interaction, but not a requirement !

 

[thatsme]

think about,
if the roman empire would have still be here would'nt the italian language be the main one and subsequently you would say the same thing about it.
or if Japan had won the war, wouild'nt Japanese be the main language?
At the present moment English is the main one, but who knows in the future?
Whatever we are indoctrinate with will enable us to be objective, not that is a bad thing.
cheers

 

[Sensationalist]

I made myself clear

You're saying that everybody in the world needs to speak English except the uniquely unique Japanese, which is of course ludicrous. Is this what you meant to say?
Who's shovelling what down whose throats exactly?
Or do you regard campaigning for anti-discrimination laws as 'western fundamentalism' ? Meaning that legalized discrimination is 'fundamentally' a Japanese thing?
All these racism/discrimination threads boil down to the same thing: there are racists everywhere in the world, but only in Japan is racism and discrimination entirely legal. In this instance, Japan really is 'unique.'

2,000,000,000 people speak English all over the world Taiko, but it's not because they needed to learn it unless of course you came from a poor Afro/Carib Island nation somewhere where your livelihood depended on the tourism industry and you needed English just to survive ! Thank western expansionism indirectly for that dependency ! That cannot be refuted.
The Japanese do not need English. They can carry on with their lives every single day without ever having to depend on using English at all ! You cannot refute that. The same cannot be said about some places in the U.S., like California for example; I would never go to Alhambra, or Fullerton because those areas have signs written in other languages that I cannot read because I only know the English language and not Chinese or Korean. There are people in L.A. who only speak Spanish, but yet they can work and own homes without ever having to use English their whole lives !

 

[Mars Man]

Please allow me to state here, and I do hope to make this clear enough to get through all the background noise, but if we were to stick more closely to the theme at hand, we'd probably--or at least ought to--understand that we need not go any further in to lingusitical discussions anymore than we ought to go into religious discussions.

Regarding embedding to support a point made, some embeding may come up but at this point no further presentation there is productive--so let's let that be.

As for more precise terms and definitions, I find that it would well be a hopeless battle in that in the rush to present opinions (and evidently only opinions rather than facts--to the far larger degree) seemingly pushes out ration and patience.

There is the existence of the 'in-group' and while it has been shown that the existence of the 'out-group' is indeed not an absolute prop-up for the 'in-group,' in far most cases it can be clearly determined that the 'out-group' has been used to cement 'in-group' bonding and strength. Whatever the excuse may be or have been, the essence of the cause is an attitude of perceiving an 'out-group.' We can say discrimination alone, and that term well suffices the entire concept.

In that this thread's title makes use of what I will call the 'opposition element' (.vs.) we could say that there is an overtone of subjectivity. We could also say that it could be an error of language--in which case there is less need to argue in terms of comparativeness and greater productivity in simple description.

Let's try to strive to keep this thread along those lines, please.

At my university, it is hard for our Chinese students to work their ways into the social networkings of the Japanese students on campus. This is an element of the formation of 'in-groups' and 'out-groups.' While the clicks, as well as the over all groups, work both ways, it is clear that it is not a matter of 'race' (since there most probably is no such thing) nor of discrimination, per se, but simply due to social bondings which groups are.

When there is a group with relatively strong bonding, it will more often have stricter in-born (subjective) resistence towards non-'in-group' members than groups with weaker bondings. This element has been touched on by a few above and does not relate only to Japanese social fabric. This is a simple animal behavior that is a continuum from lower social animals up to, even, the homo sapein. As has been stated above by thatsme san (I do believe) that's just the way it is.

 

[thatsme]

As I said I put it very simplisticly.
in any case, truth is relative, and whatever opinion I have about anything in general are just temporary, the more I observe the more the opinion vary/change accordingly
now back to the thread.

 

[centrajapan]

I think you are missing the point once again Centrajapan.

Discrmination in Japan goes back a long way.

I am missing your point. I look at you as being very close minded. But you probably have your good sides too. You seem to be projecting Aussie discrimination onto Japan.

 

[Chi65]

A few points:

I am surprised about having Korea on a high level of non religious in the list, because many there are even very religious, with growing and very early Christianity, beside a still activ shamanism and different Buddhist branches.

And then I wish to say, that religion very well plays a very strong part in Japanese, lets better say prejudices towards non Japanese, because they often destroyed their peace. Prominent example, the Jesuits, that led to the closing of Japan for more than 200 years.

Not that in the end Japan would mind, having found the contacts to the rest of the world again, but its surely still difficult to accept, that it has been done via being forced by the US (Commodore Perry ), which had many other following psychological effects too, one of them (wanting to show the world, that they are strong and powerfull, as for the "godemperor" too) Pearl Harbour (or all that warmaking, if you so wish) etc. with according effects etc..

Any present rebuffing of non Japanese can surely still be related to those scars to a certain point.

And religious or not, if the emperor has to be made a god, which is not even an old story, but made up in the latest centuries only, for obvious reasons, then this simply mirrors the tactics of many other countries or empires for domination's sake and feeds fanatism, no matter where. And out of this comes discrimination-thinking:
"I am better than you, because I am even a god or a descendant of god, and my god is all in one, not yours" etc., thus it is very well also, if not mainly, a religious background and does very clearly belong to this theme.

 

[The7thSamurai]

The race ritos in Australia was not just about these gangs. The reason why they became gangs in the first place was that white Australians did not give them the respect they dersved and the Lebanese took that respect into their own hands. And it just escalated and then the bubble bursted. The Lebanese Australians felt alienated from society.

Typical European thinking - the criminal being the victim. If Australia has a tendancy towards racism why is it that we rarely hear about problems within, for example, the Greek community, or the Indian community, or the Chinese community, or the Jewish community? You don't even hear stuff about the Catholic Lebanese! They are ALL minority groups in Australia, yet it's only certain minority groups that cause the trouble! Anyone with a logical mind would surely look at this and see that the problem obviously lies with the certain minority group in question. I don't for a second believe it's a two-way street. If it was, then all those Indian Australians and Chinese Australians would be forming gangs, bashing up lifesavers and pack raping girls too.

 

[centrajapan]

You never have race riots in Scandinavia. Not like the one in Australia. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in Scandinavia.

 

[Goldiegirl]

My Japanese husband is a racist. He believes that Chinese and Koreans cause the most trouble in Japan. I can't even argue with him about that. He simply doesn't want to hear it. The same for his family and friends. Sorry, but it's the truth. There is a lot of "quiet" racism in Japan. Maybe they don't come right out and say something but they certainly do think it. I remember watching a show in Japan about the amount of litter on Mount Fuji, they said it was all the foreigners visiting that made all the garbage, not the good Japanese people. My husband and I got into a good fight over that one. The pictures showed computers, refridgeraters, printers and such...I am sure all of us visiting foreigners brought our old kitchen goods and computer goods just to litter Mount Fuji! Oh and all the shows saying the Chinese are stealing the metal parts of kids playgrounds so they can have cheap metal or take it back to Japan.....

 

[The7thSamurai]

What's with all the Australia bashing on this thread? Some of you (esp. centrajapan) have a very distorted view about Australia. Luckily most Australians are immune from the self-loathing that the UK and Europe has succumb to. Australians aren't racist. All they want if for people to act Australian, which is very simple really - just give others a fair go, don't resort to blame, look after yourself and don't expect others to look after you unless totally necessary, don't big-note yourself or act like you're better than others. There, simple. And most ethnics abide by these very simple, natural traits. Others, for example, the Lebanese muslims and many aborogines like to blame others and are stuck in a victim mentality. Many muslims also bring to Australia and raise in their kids the idea that they are superior because of their religion, and that others are simply "kaffir", unworthy of life. And this is where the problem lies.

In regards to Japan, well I lived there for almost 3 years, in three different areas, and never experienced anything bad for being white. I was also very conscious that I was a guest in the country and tried as much as I could to fit in, speak the language, and "act" Japanese. And in the end it worked out for me. Most people didn't give too hoots that I was white, some people were curious, and that's about it.

In countries that are often falsely accused of racism, like Australia and Japan, I really do believe that it has very little to do with the country itself, and almost all to do with the people who are trying (or not trying) to integrate. And my evidence to this is the huge numbers of ethnic groups in Australia that are known to blend in well and cause no problems, and my own experience in Japan where I tried to blend in as well as I could and never being discriminated against.

You never have race riots in Scandinavia. Not like the one in Australia. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in Scandinavia.

That's because you Europeans bend over backwards so as not to offend the minorities who are destroying your country:

Fjordman: Muslim Rape Epidemic in Sweden and Norway - Authorities Look the Other Way

 

[Chi65]

Pleease:
No race riots in scandinavia??

OK, not directly, but what about the danish islam-comix and thus the islamic (over-) reactions?

OK, the islamic people were definitely completely without humour, but the mockery surely did not come from love or acceptance either. . .

And then Bucko:
the aborigines in Australia are racists? Well, how comes, that an australian can see it this way after all that has been done to them????????????
Who is a racist then?
Sorry, but that almost let me fall off out of my socks in wonder.. . . . . . .

I had an uncle, who collected songs and languages etc. amonst the aborigines and lived with them in the Pilbara region, thus tried to understand them and help them, facing lots of australian obstacles. He would have told you something here! Yes, about Australian racism. They may be OK towards others, but not in this case, sorry to say. By the way, I connected him with Peter Gabriel once, and you may remember the film the Long Walk Home (or so) . ..

As for your Japan experiences, yes, I can confirm such good esperiences. If you show fairness and goodwillingness, you mostly get it back there.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Chi65, it was centrajapan that said there were no race riots in Europe.

As for the aborigines in Australia, yes they were treated harshly in the past, but every single group of people in the entire world has also been treated harshly in the past too. However, there are some groups who choose to move on and become better, for example, the Jews, and there are some that choose to be victims forever like the aborigines. I'll tell you what - the moment the aborigines stop blaming the white man, stop demanding compensation, the moment the government gets rid of all the monetary benefits that aborigines get (e.g. Abstudy - a special government grant for aboriginal students), and the moment the aborigines decide as a group to take hold of their own destiny, will be the moment when things start to improve for them. And I can tell you that the rest of Australia will give them all the encouragement they can because Australians would love to see the condition of the aborigines improve. But the onus is on them to stop playing the victim and demanding compensation and start working towards a better future.

 

[Chi65]

Chi65, it was centrajapan that said there were no race riots in Europe.

As for the aborigines in Australia, yes they were treated harshly in the past, but every single group of people in the entire world has also been treated harshly in the past too. However, there are some groups who choose to move on and become better, for example, the Jews, and there are some that choose to be victims forever like the aborigines. I'll tell you what - the moment the aborigines stop blaming the white man, stop demanding compensation, the moment the government gets rid of all the monetary benefits that aborigines get (e.g. Abstudy - a special government grant for aboriginal students), and the moment the aborigines decide as a group to take hold of their own destiny, will be the moment when things start to improve for them. And I can tell you that the rest of Australia will give them all the encouragement they can because Australians would love to see the condition of the aborigines improve. But the onus is on them to stop playing the victim and demanding compensation and start working towards a better future.

As you can see, I corrected the first lines, no problem, I saw my mistake myself, sorry for irritation. This version is the right one.
You are adressed later, OK?

As for the Aborigines, I cannot share your view, also, because I know too much about thier ways and backgrounds. Certain scars need a long time, as you may know from the native american indians, for example.
And as long as they are expected to live only under the "whitey's" rules, while those still do not try to understand them properly, nor excuse their own former behaviour properly, to find at least a point in between the positions, I see no agreement from them, nor would I advise them to agree.

I would say the very same to and about native indians for example.

Insofar I also have a certain (! not unlimited ! ) understanding for some Japanese towards those who think, that they are the only rulers of the world (even if they also have that side in themselves, which I would not say about the aborigines or native indians for example).
But who is appreciated because of or appreciating openminded cooperation on either (!), not just one side, can move mountains for and with them. And why not in new ways?