why not seek peace

[scorpion da black]

why is it easier for people to flame each other rather than have conversation about creating a better world...???

why is every positive comment met with tens of negative comments??

and a question to every one including my self:
why do we allow our selves to get angry and be as bitter as the ones who try to let us down and make us feels like we are perusing a lost cause??

these are questions to every member on this forum...because lately i have seen members of this forum treat each other in a bad manner and taking all arguments personally ........including my self..
that is a behavior i am not common with, and i don't want to get used to..
i started on this forum with smiles and hopes of meeting understanding, interesting people...i ended up becoming what i hate..

i don't appreciate uncivilized conversations and personal insults...

this is an invitation for every one here to reestablish him/her self as a better person who respects and is respected.

 

[Goldiegirl]

It's in us all to defend ourselves our countries, right or wrong. What gets under my skin is the whole arguments of your country did or once did this or that so we can too. Two wrongs don't make a right. What was wrong in the past is wrong now. I can't stand people who want to remain stuck in the past. The past wasn't so great. I want a happy future where I am free to be who I want to be, not what a religion says, or another person says, or another country says. I want everyone to be free to live a happy life, and realize that it's ok to be different, in color, religion, nationality, sex. I always think accepting all of our differences isn't going to work, but I would be happy with coexistence. I appreciate your thoughts for starting this thread, you honesty was touching. It's hard to be our own critic. I too have gotten carried away with emotion, even when I didn't want to. I do try to rein myself in, and with the help of a certain moderator who has given me some words of wisdom, have succeeded some of the time!

 

[Sarapva]

Very good, scorpian da black! This is the way to peace. It's true - when we fight and are angry and disrespectful to each other, we're only becoming what we're fighting against. We have to get out of this vicious cycle. I think Mahatma Ghandi had a good idea with "peaceful opposition" - even if you get killed by someone, at least you haven't contributed to the hate and anger by fighting them.

Using angry words only sparks more angry words, but by not fighting back maybe we can neutralize anger.

 

[scorpion da black]

thank you fro sharing sarapva and goldiegirl
it truly drew a smile on my face ...
i have been to many forums..and i found tranquility in this one ( if i may use that word )...
since in every forum i have been to, i have found that the flaming people are triple the number of those who actually have something to say ...unlike this forum..
but i was worried that different point of views and heated arguments could turn into that "free for all ..all you can curse forum"

what i wrote here was sort of a reminder for my self first..then to every one; that we are people who are seeking the betterment of our world..and each represent a nation...
so we aught to have standards that will make our nations proud of us rather than be held account for what bad image we portrayed of our societies...

thank you again

 

[Chi65]

Well, thats only partly true, Sarapva, some come over and over again with provocations.
Usually they become so clearly agressive hemselves with this after a while, that they have to be thrown out. Also denying does not do the trick thus. Some are even more heated up then.
But we can stay amongst the peacewilling talkers and keep the goodwill up, right.
(I also have to blame my behaviour towards agressions)
Often enough some fuel themselves with more than just hate (. . .), and then it shows sooner or later anyhow.
We may have to report this more often.

By the way, some firsthand agressors often have become friends of mine, when we were through, some even longterm ones, but not all though. . .some fell off (with) their own built wall all by themselves.
Well, we Germans have our experiences, also in longterm prejudices, and are not so easily irritated. ;-)

(also my thanks for you, scorpion da black!)

Have a peacefull night!

 

[Clawn]

I believe that the first step is realizing that there is a problem with flaming, as many people believe that that is a form of argument in itself, and are usually too childish to think any other way. In order to keep the discussion friendly, everyone involved must keep an open mind, and remember that not everyone is going to agree with what they have to say. And if you don't agree, there is no reason to hurl attacks the viewpoint of someone else. One can, of course, present information that they think should prove their views false, but if they still keep to their beliefs, don't get too riled up over it.

I believe that the anonymity of the internet encourages people to respond more harshly, and with much more vehemency than they would if they were talking to each other face to face. This causes us to let our emotions rule over our response instead of the logic and understanding that is required to interact with others. If we can all remember that, just like us, there is someone else sitting at a computer, halfway across the world with different cultural and moral values than ourselves and that we need to respect that.

 

[Mars Man]

I can understand the emotion as well as the rationale behind having clear and logical presentations and arguments--even while playing on the strings of proper emotions that can more clearly be attached to that logic and rationale. In the Serious Discussions sub-fora, I do hope to do my best to continue to make effort in that regards, first of all by example.

Now this is not to say that any of us are beyond being human, whatsoever. For that reason, and with that reason in mind, we must always firstly be willing to give opponents in debate and argument the benefit of the doubt, then forgive those events (words, etc) which we see as transgressions. Also, we must strive to keep in mind that what we subjectively may see as a transgression, another, or others would (or might) not ! That is important too.

Of course, introspection is important, also giving some margin for differences in English abilities, and cultural roots. (which can also quite sub-consciously color our directions) I hope that all continue working on these things too. As I have tried to arrest my own ills (and when I feel emotions stir, I usually refrain from quickly posting a response to allow thinking time) I will continue to do so too.

ALSO, I have moved this thread here since it was not really a matter of the type of thread I hope to maintain (especially in new thread starts) in the Serious Discussions sub-forum. I hope to have everyone's understanding and cooperation on this point.

 

[Seon-a Kim]

It just proves that "normal" citizens can't just blame all the war and misery on political leaders and other (religious) groups.

Many people just carry this with them, there has even been some studies about it in the past that proved how a normal model citizen can easily change to someone with criminal or abusive behaviour towards other in the "right" circumstances. (just like there was on a mass scale during WWII)

One project was a cop who had a so called criminal (that was actually an actor) arrested and had to go away for reinforcements while the criminal was cuffed. He then asked a random decent looking person on the street to watch over the criminal and gave the citizen a teaser. The teaser didn't really work, but it made noise and light as if it did. The cop then ordered to tease the criminal whenever he tried to move and to show no compassion...

The citizen agreed. Then the cop goes away and of course the actor makes a few moves pretending to run off...so the citizen starts teasing without hesitation. The actor screams as if it hurts like hell...then he wants to "run off" again...more and longer teasing follows with serious screams. The citizen continuous like that for some time...some even kept on teasing while the criminal was already down and didn't do anything no longer.

This project was done with several random citizens and all did the same eventually and teased the hell of of the "criminal"

Main reason for that was because the citizens felt themselves protected because it was allowed by the law to do such action they thought...so they didn't feel any compassion because of that and lost part of their "humanity". Even older and female people did...

Moral is: We all somehow have something of this in us...and when in the right environment and feeling protected (in the case of the topic that would be Internet...as we all feel safe and anonymous behind our screens isn't it?), then some of that comes out and often with some people that know no limits...as they no longer see the other person as someone with emotions and feelings. On the Internet it is often just a number or a name they see, not "someone" who is using that name or number for communication not different then a letter or a phone call.

 

[Haruspex]

Fact is that we want to be ackowledged, and when that doesn't happen, we begin to remove the obstaclte that stops us from being ackowledged. You may you you are here purely for wisdom or whatever high and mighty stuff, but no, if that was the case you'd be reading books and watching discovery channel 24/7.
Such limited contact "utilities" as this forum can only achieve proving someone right or wrong.

 

[scorpion da black]

i want to thank every one for sharing truly ..

ayo-youkou what you mentioned was true..and humans do tend to act on their primal instinct when thy feel that they are allowed to....it is what we have been raised up on or what we self taught that refrains us form doing so...

derfel national geographic, discovery, wikipedia, books....you name it ...all that is way less effective than conversing with people first hand

 

[Eponine]

this is an invitation for every one here to reestablish him/her self as a better person who respects and is respected.

*wipes a tear* Gawd bless him! Nobel Peace Prize needed over here!

 

[Sarapva]

I believe that the first step is realizing that there is a problem with flaming, as many people believe that that is a form of argument in itself, and are usually too childish to think any other way. In order to keep the discussion friendly, everyone involved must keep an open mind, and remember that not everyone is going to agree with what they have to say. And if you don't agree, there is no reason to hurl attacks the viewpoint of someone else. One can, of course, present information that they think should prove their views false, but if they still keep to their beliefs, don't get too riled up over it.

This is true - it's very interesting to share different viewpoints, and all the arguing and blaming just makes it less interesting.

posted by Ayu-youkou:

Moral is: We all somehow have something of this in us...and when in the right environment and feeling protected (in the case of the topic that would be Internet...as we all feel safe and anonymous behind our screens isn't it?), then some of that comes out and often with some people that know no limits...as they no longer see the other person as someone with emotions and feelings.

This is also the case in animal abuse cases. People think that because it is an animal it can't speak out or complain to someone what this person did to it (which is true). There's a quote (can't remember who or exactly what) that says the test of our true character is by what we do when no one is watching.

 

[Chi65]

Originally Posted by Clawn


I believe that the first step is realizing that there is a problem with flaming, as many people believe that that is a form of argument in itself, and are usually too childish to think any other way. In order to keep the discussion friendly, everyone involved must keep an open mind, and remember that not everyone is going to agree with what they have to say. And if you don't agree, there is no reason to hurl attacks the viewpoint of someone else. One can, of course, present information that they think should prove their views false, but if they still keep to their beliefs, don't get too riled up over it.

What is bothersome in this is the strange habit of some to project non-said things, even turn it all upside down to have a reason for more fight and collect and present more fighters as "facts" than facts.

On the other hand, if its just another private point and seen as this, there should be no problem. I agree. But making an X out of a U (as we say here) is plain nonsense and needs correction, but not via hatefull off topic-sidestreets then, but simple actual facts, that can stand there until better ones are available. Thats the normal and fair way.

To emotionally personalise them is the same as no argument.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

i have been to many forums..and i found tranquility in this one ( if i may use that word )...
since in every forum i have been to, i have found that the flaming people are triple the number of those who actually have something to say ...unlike this forum..

I agree on that. Even though I've been though some pretty heated times here (even causing me to stay away for a few months), compared to other forums things are, as you say, pretty tranquil here. It's only natural when we feel strongly about a topic to defend it with some degree of aggression.

I remember an exercise we did at school. The teacher asked our views on a particular topic and then got us to argue for the opposite side. Maybe we should all think that way before we post on anything serious.

 

[scorpion da black]

i want to thank every one for sharing again..
what derfel san said has some truth to it...when some one finds recognition he feels better about him self especially when he is being recognized for a matter that he believes is righteous ..and so on this topic...i am strengthened with your recognition for me ...thank you every one...
and eponine you are sweet

and tsuyoiko san i think what your teacher was wise , a person can imagine him self from the other side , maybe it will decrease the aggression and make way for a more constructive and a smarter conversation

 

[Mars Man]

...when some one finds recognition he feels better about him self especially when he is being recognized for a matter that he believes is righteous ..

(bold and underline mine)

But here, is where we will run into problems--more than simply 'can' run into problems, 'will' run into problems. The reason is that 'righteousness,' the noun form of the word, is not like a rock that you can pick up and hold in your hand, then pitch over to the next person who will of course recieve it just exactly as it is (for all practical purposes).

It is not even like fine shifting sand. It is more like air--we can capture it within a certain form, but it's only the mold that we ourselves have formed which holds the air, and it is not the air itself that we hold. We can pass the mold on to the next person, and the air within the mold will be passed, but it is actually the mold that is being passed.

The belief of being righteous is historically and philosophically about as subjective as a person can get. To consider oneself righteous is in no way whatsoever to be correct--as in not false--unless to be righteous is being held to being supported by the best and most logical conclusion on the fullest collection of data humanly collectable on a given matter.

Therefore, in our efforts towards maintaining peace and 'civil' conversation (where here I'll take 'civil' as being that of humanistic altruism and academical style which fits that) it would be good to present as much data as possible, and to reason upon and draw conclusions from that data as logically and maturely as humanly possible.

 

[scorpion da black]

mars man san
that is true, i do believe that there is no specific definition of what is righteous...it is a matter of opinion..
and that is why one seeks acceptance to his idea from other people ....
there is no definite proof for the idea i give..so i seek others to prove me right

 

[Mars Man]

there is no definite proof for the idea i give..so i seek others to prove me right

That, scorpion da black san, wholely depends upon the evidence a person may give. For example, in the thread regarding homosexuality, you have denied the opinons of those who are experts in the field for your own opinion which has no backing.

This amounts to definite proof that the idea you give is incorrect. Here, therefore, you must admit to being in the wrong--if you intend to be fair with the information.

 

[scorpion da black]

That, scorpion da black san, wholely depends upon the evidence a person may give. For example, in the thread regarding homosexuality, you have denied the opinons of those who are experts in the field for your own opinion which has no backing.
This amounts to definite proof that the idea you give is incorrect. Here, therefore, you must admit to being in the wrong--if you intend to be fair with the information.

very true of you in some of the conversations that i have participated in i was behind on information and i was experiencing new information about a matter i had little knowledge of in scientific matter and backed my belief on religious bases...
how ever i didn't say what other people said was either true or not..or whether what i said was a definite fact..i stated an opinion ..which now i know is not welcomed and what is needed is facts.. so i will try and participate with a full argument in what ever conversation i am on...unless i have so i wont participate.

 

[Mars Man]

Yes, that is correct (about not saying that others were wrong or right) in the direct sense. What I have noticed from time to time with a number of posts by any number of members (not talking about you only here, nor pointing a finger, per se) is that sometimes we forget that by making an opposing statement, we are by logic rules denying the truth value of a statement made by other members. It is not direct, but it does, nevertheless, essential make the claim that the opposing claim is false.

Anyway, I do greatly appreciate your expressions of willingness to learn. Learning is such a valuable thing, and is something that never stops--as long as the brain remains more plastic. It is also very important to make effort to be as accurate and correct as possible, and to admit to adjustment of understanding when and if such comes. (although anyone can refuse to move from a position of understanding...regardless of the amount of evidence against it...that is an individual right and freedom)

 

[Nuala]

Being insulting, sarcastic, cynical, skeptical, and outright rude to others is fun! As long as it remains interesting. Some people just drag things out for way too long.

 

[Chi65]

As long as you do it in your fun parc. . .

 

[scorpion da black]

so mars man san what you are saying is having an opposing opinion is giving the impression of disagreeing and denying the facts some other member gives, seems logical to me.
and again as i said, i will build my self a conversation that has a great deal facts to back what ever i have to say up.

 

[Mars Man]

You are on the right track there, scorpion da black san--let me make an analogy. (this is just an analogy, an example for getting the idea across)

Let's say, for example, that I make the following claim: Yeshua was just a man like every other man who has ever lived, and nothing more than that. (Yeshua = the English 'Jesus' in Christianity)

It must be kept in mind that a statement of claim has been made. Whether that is an opinion of mine, or just a repeat of a heard or read claim, or has any valid evidence to back it up, makes no difference at this point...it is a positive claim in the absolute.

Now, another person comes along and makes the following statement: Jesus was YHWH. (YHWH = god-model of Jewish origin {basically})

It is important to grasp that that other person didn't say I was wrong in specificially expressed terms, but simply had made a claim. Likewise, I had not said that what that person had said was not true. (of course timewise my claim had come first, though)

However, if we put the two claims side by side:

Yeshua was just a man like every other man...
Jesus was YHWH.​

It is easy to see that the two claims contradict--unless we can show that all men are YHWH, or YHWH was just a man like every other man... We know, however, that the Jewish religious belief-system claims that YHWH was the creator of all the universe and is not a human being. We also know, from usual definition of the English language terms, that all the men (and here I do mean male humans) in the world are just men in the world, and are not YHWH. (according to the definition of YHWH)

By logic and definiton parameters, then, we can determine that one claim can be true, and only one. In this fashion, the other person has indirectly, logically claimed that my claim was false. That person didn't say it in exact, expressed words, but the boundry of the concept contained in that claim, did.

This is what I said above in my #20 post. It is for this reason, therefore, that in many cases, it is best to have evidence for claims made, or in cases without any, to admit to having no evidence for it. (at times, having evidence to support the validity of evidence is also needed)

I think this will help in maintaining the peace, too ! This, along with the willingness to learn, and an open desire to seek out information and data on all sides of things, will surely lead to a peaceful state. I appreciate your efforts here !

 

[Goldiegirl]

Logic and scientific arguments are good, but when religion. or faith gets involved you can't discuss logically anymore. There are people who believe in their religion no matter what science has to say. I have said so before faith can't be proved therefore it can't be argued. I think that leads to many of the heated discussions here. And truly sometimes we all don't care what logic or science has to say, we have our own ideas right or wrong and that's that. No matter what is said pro or con is going to matter, we have our opinion based on fact or not, it's just our feeling, our opinion. I try to not to have those reactions, but I to have some ideas that are mine and your not going to change them, so it's best for me to not try and discuss them. ( I should say this, I am not saying religion is right or wrong, I think if you are happy in your faith, that is great, just that it's hard to argue religion.)