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I totally agree with it.My guess is one reason に is more commonly used is that the focus of "forget" is usually where the forgotten item can be recovered
I think you're overcomplicating this a bit. The point is whether the focus is on the destination or the place where the action described by the verb was/is performed.My interpretation of what you are both saying is that に is being used as a destination particle, even when the destination and origin location of the thing are the same.
So に marks the destination of the action, regardless of where you started.
The particle used makes a huge difference to that poor janitorI've found it helps to keep good example sentences in your mind to retain this kind of information. So here's one for you.
トイレでうんちしました
トイレにうんちしました
Speaking strictly, this is not correct, or at least not accurate. Think about 教室で机の上にカバンを置きました。. The bag was moved from the speaker's hand to the top of a desk, and the whole action was done in the classroom.even when the destination and origin location of the thing are the same
Not really. People or even locations also can be the destination of abstract ideas or emotions. It's often called "target" (対象) rather than destination, but the concept is the same as physical things.Additionally, the use of に for action verbs is exclusively applicable to the movement of physical things, since only physical things can have physical destinations.
I've only ever known に when used in this sense to mark location of existence (ある/いる), with a few exceptions (e.g. 住んでいる). I've never seen it used to mark the location of an action "nantoka を nantoka", which is why I can only rationalise this に usage as a destination particle.Well, you're also familiar with に simply marking location (e.g. 東京に住んでいる or そのの川には魚がたくさんいる), right?
These don't imply any sense of movement, as you no doubt already know.
Yes I don't know why I said action lol. I think the difference between に and で are clear to me now. I just think the usage of に is a little unintuitive for me personally so it'll take some practice.I would nitpick and say it's not the destination of the action, but rather the object in question. In phrases like 電車の中に鞄を忘れてきた, and 家の前に車を停めました (from Toritoribe-san's examples), the focus again is on the eventual location (I suppose you can call this the "destination") of the bag and the car (as a result of the action), rather than where the speaker was when they performed the action of "forgetting their bag" or "parking the car".
Not sure if I'm misunderstanding here, but are you equating the placing of the bag (former example) with the forgetting of the bag (latter example)?Speaking strictly, this is not correct, or at least not accurate. Think about 教室で机の上にカバンを置きました。. The bag was moved from the speaker's hand to the top of a desk, and the whole action was done in the classroom.
The same goes with 電車の中で棚にカバンを忘れてしまった. 棚 is the destination, and 電車の中 is the place where the whole action was done.
As you can see, It's not "the destination and origin location of the thing are the same". The two places are different, but they both are in the same location that is indicated by で (教室 and 電車の中, respectively).
Okay we're on the same page about that. In that case; what I don't understand is this:No. Even in 電車の中で棚にカバンを忘れてしまった, the bag was moved from the subject's hand to 棚. 忘れる implies 置き忘れる "to put the object on somewhere and forget to take it from there" in that context. No one can forget something somewhere while holding it in their hand, right?
Not really. The bag is the subject's property. It has not been on the shelf. The subject brought it when getting on the train, and put it on the shelf in the train, thus, they moved it from their hand to the destination "the shelf". That's one reason why に is used here. Notice that 忘れる implies 置き忘れる/置いて、忘れる" to put the object on somewhere and forget to take it from there" in that context, as I already wrote, so に is attached to the implied action "to put", not 忘れる.Indeed the shelf is the destination of the bag, but it's also the origin point of the bag.
I suppose origin is strictly speaking not the correct word for what I'm trying to say.Not really. The bag is the subject's property. It has not been on the shelf. The subject brought it when getting on the train, and put it on the shelf in the train, thus, they moved it from their hand to the destination "the shelf". That's one reason why に is used here. Notice that 忘れる implies 置き忘れる/置いて、忘れる" to put the object on somewhere and forget to take it from there" in that context, as I already wrote, so に is attached to the implied action "to put", not 忘れる.
Indeed it might not be impossible to think that the bag was already on the shelf when the action 忘れる was done, as you said. However, in this interpretation, the shelf is not the destination of action but the location of existence (カバンが棚にある). It doesn't mean "the destination and the origin point are the same", anyway.
I think 置き忘れる, i.e., に indicates the destination of the implied action "to put", not the location of existence, is a more common interpretation at least for 電車の中で棚にカバンを忘れてしまった, though.