What to do about Yasukuni?
- Thread starter DaMo
- Start date
Han Chan
先輩
- 14 Mar 2006
- 444
- 16
It seems like several leading LDP politicians now agree that the war criminals should be seperated from the regular war-dead in Yasukuni. It is also interesting that there are now thoughts about changing the shrine into a secular monument or alternatively to build a secular war memorial. Very interinstin article in Asahi yesterday:
"Can old twist on old plot defuse Yasukuni?
08/09/2006
BY YU NOGAMI
THE ASAHI SHIMBUN
Foreign Minister Taro Aso has stirred the bubbling Yasukuni pot by urging the controversial war-linked Shinto shrine to voluntarily disband as a religious entity and become a national secular memorial.
The proposal changes the terms of the contemporary Yasukuni debate, which in recent years has largely focused on whether the prime minister should pay his respects there.
Instead, Aso suggested the Diet pass a law to make Yasukuni secular, and that the Diet decide who to honor there.
Finance Minister Sadakazu Tanigaki is another voice calling for Yasukuni to take action of its own accord.
Tanigaki, who has said he will not visit the shrine for the time being, endorses the idea of separating the 14 Class-A war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni from the war dead.
It is Yasukuni's enshrinement of war criminals alongside the war dead in the first place that is the problem, he said.
"The ball is now in Yasukuni's court," Tanigaki said.
In some ways, Tanigaki and Aso are similar. Both plan to run in the Liberal Democratic Party presidential election to choose Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's successor. And both are urging the shrine to take voluntary action.
But Aso has gone a step further and suggested that the Diet be the one to decide who to honor at the shrine--including the possibility of separating the Class-A war criminals.
In his proposal, Aso said that prime ministerial visits are transforming Yasukuni into a political issue, and obscuring the shrine's true aim of offering a place to pray for the sprits of the war dead.
He has given his proposal to both Yasukuni Shrine and Nippon Izokukai, a national association of bereaved families of the war dead.
Aso has also indicated that he will not pay respects at Yasukuni until the shrine takes up the burden of change. That burden, he made clear at a news conference Tuesday, is squarely on Yasukuni's shoulders.
Hidenao Nakagawa, LDP policy chief, backed up Aso by mentioning that he could submit a bill to allow the government to manage Yasukuni.
Consensus is far from secured, though. Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe told reporters Monday that he does not want any review on Yasukuni's enshrinement policy.
"The government is not in a position to state opinions on Yasukuni Shrine's religious positions and rites," Abe said.
The debate has only begun. But it seems increasingly likely to force Japan to finally come to terms with its role in World War II in addition to the pros and cons of a secular Yasukuni and treatment of Class-A war criminals.
"Whether Yasukuni should be secular was debated some 30 years ago," pointed out LDP veteran Taku Yamasaki in a speech Monday.
But, said Yamasaki, "it is unlikely that the shrine will give up its religious status."
Rather, Yamasaki believes a better solution is to build a separate, secular war memorial.
In fact, in the 1960s and 1970s the LDP drafted a bill to put Yasukuni Shrine under state control, and submitted it to the Diet five times. But it never passed, and was eventually scrapped in June 1974.
Yasukuni Shrine itself was open to the idea of state management, being under the jurisdiction of the navy and army ministries during the war. But things did not work out that way. Some argued that making Yasukuni state-run would be a return to wartime policies. Others pointed out that making the shrine secular was procedurally difficult, involving changing the wordings of celebratory speeches there.
While the shrine resisted such changes, Nippon Izokukai changed tactics: It started encouraging prime ministers to make official visits to Yasukuni.(IHT/Asahi: August 9,2006) "
"Can old twist on old plot defuse Yasukuni?
08/09/2006
BY YU NOGAMI
THE ASAHI SHIMBUN
Foreign Minister Taro Aso has stirred the bubbling Yasukuni pot by urging the controversial war-linked Shinto shrine to voluntarily disband as a religious entity and become a national secular memorial.
The proposal changes the terms of the contemporary Yasukuni debate, which in recent years has largely focused on whether the prime minister should pay his respects there.
Instead, Aso suggested the Diet pass a law to make Yasukuni secular, and that the Diet decide who to honor there.
Finance Minister Sadakazu Tanigaki is another voice calling for Yasukuni to take action of its own accord.
Tanigaki, who has said he will not visit the shrine for the time being, endorses the idea of separating the 14 Class-A war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni from the war dead.
It is Yasukuni's enshrinement of war criminals alongside the war dead in the first place that is the problem, he said.
"The ball is now in Yasukuni's court," Tanigaki said.
In some ways, Tanigaki and Aso are similar. Both plan to run in the Liberal Democratic Party presidential election to choose Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's successor. And both are urging the shrine to take voluntary action.
But Aso has gone a step further and suggested that the Diet be the one to decide who to honor at the shrine--including the possibility of separating the Class-A war criminals.
In his proposal, Aso said that prime ministerial visits are transforming Yasukuni into a political issue, and obscuring the shrine's true aim of offering a place to pray for the sprits of the war dead.
He has given his proposal to both Yasukuni Shrine and Nippon Izokukai, a national association of bereaved families of the war dead.
Aso has also indicated that he will not pay respects at Yasukuni until the shrine takes up the burden of change. That burden, he made clear at a news conference Tuesday, is squarely on Yasukuni's shoulders.
Hidenao Nakagawa, LDP policy chief, backed up Aso by mentioning that he could submit a bill to allow the government to manage Yasukuni.
Consensus is far from secured, though. Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe told reporters Monday that he does not want any review on Yasukuni's enshrinement policy.
"The government is not in a position to state opinions on Yasukuni Shrine's religious positions and rites," Abe said.
The debate has only begun. But it seems increasingly likely to force Japan to finally come to terms with its role in World War II in addition to the pros and cons of a secular Yasukuni and treatment of Class-A war criminals.
"Whether Yasukuni should be secular was debated some 30 years ago," pointed out LDP veteran Taku Yamasaki in a speech Monday.
But, said Yamasaki, "it is unlikely that the shrine will give up its religious status."
Rather, Yamasaki believes a better solution is to build a separate, secular war memorial.
In fact, in the 1960s and 1970s the LDP drafted a bill to put Yasukuni Shrine under state control, and submitted it to the Diet five times. But it never passed, and was eventually scrapped in June 1974.
Yasukuni Shrine itself was open to the idea of state management, being under the jurisdiction of the navy and army ministries during the war. But things did not work out that way. Some argued that making Yasukuni state-run would be a return to wartime policies. Others pointed out that making the shrine secular was procedurally difficult, involving changing the wordings of celebratory speeches there.
While the shrine resisted such changes, Nippon Izokukai changed tactics: It started encouraging prime ministers to make official visits to Yasukuni.(IHT/Asahi: August 9,2006) "
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
China, S. Korea to Accept One Shrine Visit by Next Leader
China, South Korea Deny Report They would Accept Shrine Visits by Future Japan Leaders
Was it one of typical disinformation tactics for just testing water. Were the "sources" Tokyo, Seoul or Shanghai.
↓
China, South Korea Deny Report They would Accept Shrine Visits by Future Japan Leaders
China and Korea have never made any joint statement on Yasukuni before, so it is easy to suspect credibility of the report by Jiji and Kyodo anyway.
Was it one of typical disinformation tactics for just testing water. Were the "sources" Tokyo, Seoul or Shanghai.
Last edited:
Koizumi
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060815-04648171-jijp-pol.view-001
if j-PM continues to visit yasukuni. it will be natural ..
then they will lose a Yasukuni card gradually
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060815-04648171-jijp-pol.view-001
if j-PM continues to visit yasukuni. it will be natural ..
then they will lose a Yasukuni card gradually
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
Naﾃｯve people who think that the issue will be solved by deshrining class A war criminal had better read the following news report.
NHK news
That is because their culture does not have such virtue as praying for soldiers who had to die for the nation. They will not get satisfied even after burning down all Shintoism shrines then digging up every single grave to vandalize it.
A new nonreligious facility will be blamed by them too as glorification of militarism anyway.
NHK news
They will not stop complaining by removing class A war criminals. They will next demand to close down the museum, then eventually demolish the whole Yasukuni.
That is because their culture does not have such virtue as praying for soldiers who had to die for the nation. They will not get satisfied even after burning down all Shintoism shrines then digging up every single grave to vandalize it.
A new nonreligious facility will be blamed by them too as glorification of militarism anyway.
名無し said:
Masked-nationalistic ranting ... ranting ... ranting,scare tactics won't work.
Yasukuni Shrine is a right-wing institution with Japanese nationalists pulling strings behind the scenes.
Someone's post counts equivalent to Japanese right-wing propaganda machine.
- 1 Nov 2005
- 446
- 39
名無し said:
Mr. Koizumi visited the Yasukuni Shrine as the Prime Minister from Japan on the 15th of August. I can understand the hurt feelings of the Koreans and Chinese people, because he signed in as PM Koizumi.
Any Japanese can pray for the souls of their lost beloved ones during WW II, so can the PM of Japan of course, but not as the PM from Japan but simply as Mr.Koizumi and certainly without camera's or any other big show he made of his visit to pray or whatever. It was very unrespectful.
Sukotto
先輩
- 9 Jul 2003
- 1,426
- 20
I have some questions about Yasakuni shrine and Shinto. I don't really have an opinion on Yasakuni, but i am against all war and heed to Yoda's advice after Luke told him he was looking for a 'great warrior' : "Wars do not make one great."
That said, didn't I read that Shinto had been a traditional "folk" religion or group of religions and quite noncentralized, until maybe the last century or so when the emperor system adopted it as their own as a way to justify their rule while claiming descent from the Goddess of the creation myth.
If that, how would Yasakuni tie into it?
Is Yasakuni of the state shinto version or the non-centralized "folk" version?
That said, didn't I read that Shinto had been a traditional "folk" religion or group of religions and quite noncentralized, until maybe the last century or so when the emperor system adopted it as their own as a way to justify their rule while claiming descent from the Goddess of the creation myth.
If that, how would Yasakuni tie into it?
Is Yasakuni of the state shinto version or the non-centralized "folk" version?
Well, form other Asian nation's perspective, it was the right wing group that have succefully enshrined the class A war criminals into Yasukuni in 1978. And starting about 10 years ago. Their influence made into the education ministry and the school history textbooks were toned-down on the subject of WWII atrocities. And maybe the right wing group will not stop ther and the next logical step for Japan would be to rearm itself and maybe what happened 60 years ago will repeat again.
But in reality, the vast majority of Chinese do not hate Japanese for the current diplomatic problems, they understand this is the problems between the two governments.
- 18 Jan 2005
- 11,682
- 3,643
Yasukuni shrine was established to mourn for a person killed in action (the Emperor side) by Boshin War on August 6, 1869.
"An enshrined deity" is not God or the Emperor appearing in a myth,
It is the war dead who "gave life to Japan".
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/index.html
Other than Yasukuni shrine, there is the Shinto shrine which does "an enshrined deity" of an officer.
窶愬停?ｹﾂｽﾂ神ﾅｽﾃ (TOGO SHRINE)
Tōgō Shrine - Wikipedia
窶抖窶禿伉神ﾅｽﾃ ( NOGI SHRINE)
乃木神社 ｜ 安産祈願・厄祓・結婚式は東京・乃木坂の乃木神社
Gentleman10
後輩
- 7 Nov 2006
- 124
- 4
I was thinking on the way to class today...
Are foreigners allowed to visit Yasukuni Shrine? If so, has anyone been?
Are foreigners allowed to visit Yasukuni Shrine? If so, has anyone been?
gaijinalways
puzzled gaijin
- 15 Jan 2006
- 681
- 21
Yes, I have visited it, though I still consider praying they raze it or remove the war criminals and the names of people whose relatives wish that there family members' names were not listed there.
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
Numerous non-Japanese VIPs have visited Yasukuni, including Dalai Lama in 1980.
Notice that it was after class A war criminals were enshrined.
It is in a way sad that some people still feel that Japan should not be allowed to have the memorial day holiday.
Gentleman10
後輩
- 7 Nov 2006
- 124
- 4
Hmm, well you know... if my study abroad stuff works out next year, I really think I just may see it to get a glimpse of what all the fuss is about. If one were to argue this subject so boldly, I'd say It's probably a good idea to see just how peaceful or insulting the shrine may be. I really am curious to see it.. as long as I'm not harrassed by officials/ conservatives for being foreign.
I guess I aught as well elaborate on what I think about Yasukuni while I'm here. Frankly I feel rather torn apart by the subject. I think I understand why the Japanese love it so much, and I think I understand why foreigners (south asians, chinese etc) hate it so much. I think it's really that Japanese and non Japanese simply aren't thinking of the shrine in the same light, and thus they don't see eye to eye with each other.
I am going to try and approach this subject from an unbiased and clear perspective as an American. Honestly I think many of the opinions on yasukuni are just so distoreted it's so hard to make up your own mind sometimes, especially when being informed from a Japanese or victimized Asian nation. At the same time, I think Westerners have a sense of democratic bias installed in them concerning the issue, but I'm about to address that.
I have been taught that the Japanese war criminals are the ones responsible for committing horrible atrocities all across Asia. They were the ones responsible for the rape, violence, and horrible experiments etc etc that created the tensions that lie between Asian and Japan today. I have also been taught that some Japanese believe these atrocities never happened, as if the Japanese had never harmed a fly during WW2, while the reality was that they were at the peak of their military expansion. I also know that as a result of this brutal past, many Asians today demand reparations for these not so recent atrocities, and that the Japanese governement is denying many of these people their payment.
Ok, that is what I have learned through my most-likely biased US education and information, now this is what I think:
What we really have to do is break this up into 3 perspectives, a Japanese, a non-Japanese Asian, and a Western perspective if we all want to understand what Yasukuni is about. I'm not saying any of this is exactly accurrate (if I'm wrong in any way, feel free to argue lol), but I'm really thinking I'm hitting the reason why everyone has their panties in a twist.
Let's start with teh Jp perspective:
Now if I were to put my shoes shoes of a typical Japanese I think my opinion would go something like this. To begin with I think it would be difficult to understand why people have a problem with politicians honoring the Japanese war dead to begin with. I think the Japanese view their fallen as a symbol of what their ancestors went through to create the prosperous Japan they live in today. Everyone knows all of Asia has a very rigid heirarchical sense of honor as far as elders are concerned, so isn't this just a way of honoring those before you who took bullets for your sake? Think about it, a classic message advocated is to "meet [teh soldiers] at yasukuni" to celebrate the prosperity created for Japan. I think the Japanese feel overcriticized for going to yasukni, because foreigners do not understand the concepts of taking the good of the Japanese soldier while removing the bad and already officially apologizing for the atrocities committed. Think of it this way, American soldiers (or any soldier for that matter) has had their share of raping foreign women, viciously treating enemy POWs and whatever. The Japanese have had their share of sins as well, they're only human (I'm not using this as an excuse by any means to say that what they did was right).
For a nation that has been in existence for a very long time, I would naturallly assume that a good portion of pride as a Japanese was established. And being the collective society that Japan is, everyone no matter what they did, is considered to have done their job for Japan, because to exclude even a single member would not express the tight bond of comraderie between the Japanese people. Therefore, the Japanese rather accept their atrocities regardless of what they did, but at the same time, I think they are regretful that to build their nation required so much pain on everyone else's part. BUT that regret is not the point of yasukuni. Even as caster said (I think he's Japanese, are you?)
---
[Yasukuni is meant to] pray for peace in the world and health for your family.
that is also their hope.
---
yasukuni is a place to respect all the dead, because to banish even one of the deceased would remove any sense of honor from that person, regardless of his/her status.
Because of this deep philosophy that foreigners do not understand, and because other Asians are so overwhelemed by anger of the actual atrocities, Japan get annoyed at the rest of the world, and they simply choose to shutdown/ignore everyone else's complaining, and just go about their business considering it a private affair that people shouldn't really be getting into to begin with. The rest of Asia says that "yasukuni reminds them of the atrocities and is a reminder of their horrid past", but I can imagine how this annoys Japan b/c they don't think that's the point of yasukuni. While the rest of the world will not settle for this, Japan expects everyone else to turn the other cheek if they don't agree with the way they handle their business.
In short, this is a matter of pride to the Japanese to honor the everyday recruit who left his wife and children to shed his blood for a better tomororw.
On a seperate note, I have a feeling that the Japanese kinda want to seperate themselves from these horrible events in order to identify as a more peaceful people, so I can see why it could be difficult to face such a haunting past.
----
The Rest of Asia: Well guys, damn I'd be pissed too if I were China Korea south asia. In fact, I'd be really pissed. If Japan isn't completely owning up to what they did to their people. I mean really, wouldn't we all? If the Japanese come to China and decided to use them for scientific experiments, and completely obliterate Nanjing, well of course they have reason to be furious. Additionally, why would Japan have the nerve to honor those who tortured so many people? It just doesn't add up.. and thus animosity spreads throughout Asia (except for Taiwan, who, in my opinion, sometimes mindlessly thanks Japan withouth thinking). Because the Japanese shutdown whenever it comes to giving a full explanation of Yasukuni shrine (most likely because they see it as a private affair), everyone else sees this is a slap in the face saying "Deal with it, that's all I have to say" arrogant attitude. Well, that's not cool beans with everyone now is it? And for the fact that the Japanese prime minister of all people has the nerve to go and not explain himself b/c he, as well as the rest of Japan is kinda annoyed at having to deal with all this to begin with.... well folks, I can clearly imagine why Asia is kinda ticked.
US/Europe: *I probably am speaking from a more American perspective than I am a european one, so work with me here*
To us, as far as the general population is concerned, I think it's difficult for most people to grasp the fact that these nations like china and japan have been in existence for so long. While America may be a blantantly patriotic country, how many times have you heard that it is your duty "as an American" to do "~~~'? While we may hear that only every 4 years (it's our duty as Americans to vote), on the flipside, how many times have you heard on Jtv that it is Xさん's duty as a Japanese as a form of motivation one way or another? I think what we have trouble understanding is the deep sense of pride enstilled in many Jp people, and therefore it is hard for us as westernesrs to approach this deeply touchy subject beyond the basic ethics of right and wrong. The reason why Americans see yasukuni as a place that aught to be condemned is because we can only relate yasukuni as a reminder of an Axis enemy (and naturally we think of Japanese general's like Hitler, and no one likes him), and thus we feel compelled to erase this shrine of Jp generals. While the rest of Asia probably believe the Jp generals to be the Asian Hitler equivalent, Americans, the founders of democracy and "fair play" would obvious demand a removal any idols of the atrocities. What the US doesnt' recoginize is that yasukuni is more than a shrine of idolization.... it's a shrine of religion, more specifically a religion that's been founded for who knows who long. Let's face it, no way in hell is anyone just going to stop a tradition which has been going on for 10000000 years, especially a group of people as culturally staunch as the Japanese. But because of cultural differnces, it is difficult for the US to make such request to our newly befriended allies, and it is difficult for the Japanese to say to their newly befriended allies "You guys don't get it.. it's more than that".
*phew*, well in conclusion, what I really think needs to be done is that people just talk without gettting pissed at each other, although I think people on all sides of the globe may be a bit too confused/angry with each other at this point to do that. I really think what Japan needs to do is, rather than shut down when it comes to talking, is the exact opposite. What they really need to do, is seriously talk to china about what they think. I think it would be quite possible to communicate "We aren't changing our ways, but things aren't exactly the way you see them. let me tell you just why we do the things we do." while maintain that infamous Japanese staunchness for culture.
My advice to the rest of Asia is to become less pissed, and more passive aggressive in facing this issue with Japan. Because the Japanese really don't want to bring back up old wounds of being reminded of the horrid atrocities committed, I think it would be kinda futile to ask for $9999999999999 in reparations when dealing with a different generation in political power. Think about black people in the US with reparations. It would be rediculous to ask a completely different generation of government for huge sums of money no matter how bad the crime, b/c apparently ppl aren't too fond of having to say "I'm sorry" for the sins of their fathers (especially when saying sorry means forking over cash). If people were to want to reach a peaceful settlement the way to make peace with a person you're at odds with is to calmly approach them and slowly start off with "let's talk". Hopefully, if the Japanese aren't feeling too introverted, just maybe we can start up some negotiations.
US/Europe: Frankly i think the most we can do is just sit and watch, and encourse asia to friggin get along. I really don't think Japan is going to acknowledge a country so culturally different when it comes to addressing such a cultural issue. I have the feeling that many westerners would get a cold shoulder when addressing the yasukuni issue, but just maybe if we play our cards right someone will listen to what we have to say just a lil bit more.
Blah, why can't we all be friends (>_<) ?
Well, if you reached the end of the mega passage, congrats. go ahead and criticize the hell out of anything I said that sounds odd or didn't come off just right, I can probably be more clear in shorter responses. Anyway, hopefully this will be some food for our brains to munch on for a while, so enjoy.
I guess I aught as well elaborate on what I think about Yasukuni while I'm here. Frankly I feel rather torn apart by the subject. I think I understand why the Japanese love it so much, and I think I understand why foreigners (south asians, chinese etc) hate it so much. I think it's really that Japanese and non Japanese simply aren't thinking of the shrine in the same light, and thus they don't see eye to eye with each other.
I am going to try and approach this subject from an unbiased and clear perspective as an American. Honestly I think many of the opinions on yasukuni are just so distoreted it's so hard to make up your own mind sometimes, especially when being informed from a Japanese or victimized Asian nation. At the same time, I think Westerners have a sense of democratic bias installed in them concerning the issue, but I'm about to address that.
I have been taught that the Japanese war criminals are the ones responsible for committing horrible atrocities all across Asia. They were the ones responsible for the rape, violence, and horrible experiments etc etc that created the tensions that lie between Asian and Japan today. I have also been taught that some Japanese believe these atrocities never happened, as if the Japanese had never harmed a fly during WW2, while the reality was that they were at the peak of their military expansion. I also know that as a result of this brutal past, many Asians today demand reparations for these not so recent atrocities, and that the Japanese governement is denying many of these people their payment.
Ok, that is what I have learned through my most-likely biased US education and information, now this is what I think:
What we really have to do is break this up into 3 perspectives, a Japanese, a non-Japanese Asian, and a Western perspective if we all want to understand what Yasukuni is about. I'm not saying any of this is exactly accurrate (if I'm wrong in any way, feel free to argue lol), but I'm really thinking I'm hitting the reason why everyone has their panties in a twist.
Let's start with teh Jp perspective:
Now if I were to put my shoes shoes of a typical Japanese I think my opinion would go something like this. To begin with I think it would be difficult to understand why people have a problem with politicians honoring the Japanese war dead to begin with. I think the Japanese view their fallen as a symbol of what their ancestors went through to create the prosperous Japan they live in today. Everyone knows all of Asia has a very rigid heirarchical sense of honor as far as elders are concerned, so isn't this just a way of honoring those before you who took bullets for your sake? Think about it, a classic message advocated is to "meet [teh soldiers] at yasukuni" to celebrate the prosperity created for Japan. I think the Japanese feel overcriticized for going to yasukni, because foreigners do not understand the concepts of taking the good of the Japanese soldier while removing the bad and already officially apologizing for the atrocities committed. Think of it this way, American soldiers (or any soldier for that matter) has had their share of raping foreign women, viciously treating enemy POWs and whatever. The Japanese have had their share of sins as well, they're only human (I'm not using this as an excuse by any means to say that what they did was right).
For a nation that has been in existence for a very long time, I would naturallly assume that a good portion of pride as a Japanese was established. And being the collective society that Japan is, everyone no matter what they did, is considered to have done their job for Japan, because to exclude even a single member would not express the tight bond of comraderie between the Japanese people. Therefore, the Japanese rather accept their atrocities regardless of what they did, but at the same time, I think they are regretful that to build their nation required so much pain on everyone else's part. BUT that regret is not the point of yasukuni. Even as caster said (I think he's Japanese, are you?)
---
[Yasukuni is meant to] pray for peace in the world and health for your family.
that is also their hope.
---
yasukuni is a place to respect all the dead, because to banish even one of the deceased would remove any sense of honor from that person, regardless of his/her status.
Because of this deep philosophy that foreigners do not understand, and because other Asians are so overwhelemed by anger of the actual atrocities, Japan get annoyed at the rest of the world, and they simply choose to shutdown/ignore everyone else's complaining, and just go about their business considering it a private affair that people shouldn't really be getting into to begin with. The rest of Asia says that "yasukuni reminds them of the atrocities and is a reminder of their horrid past", but I can imagine how this annoys Japan b/c they don't think that's the point of yasukuni. While the rest of the world will not settle for this, Japan expects everyone else to turn the other cheek if they don't agree with the way they handle their business.
In short, this is a matter of pride to the Japanese to honor the everyday recruit who left his wife and children to shed his blood for a better tomororw.
On a seperate note, I have a feeling that the Japanese kinda want to seperate themselves from these horrible events in order to identify as a more peaceful people, so I can see why it could be difficult to face such a haunting past.
----
The Rest of Asia: Well guys, damn I'd be pissed too if I were China Korea south asia. In fact, I'd be really pissed. If Japan isn't completely owning up to what they did to their people. I mean really, wouldn't we all? If the Japanese come to China and decided to use them for scientific experiments, and completely obliterate Nanjing, well of course they have reason to be furious. Additionally, why would Japan have the nerve to honor those who tortured so many people? It just doesn't add up.. and thus animosity spreads throughout Asia (except for Taiwan, who, in my opinion, sometimes mindlessly thanks Japan withouth thinking). Because the Japanese shutdown whenever it comes to giving a full explanation of Yasukuni shrine (most likely because they see it as a private affair), everyone else sees this is a slap in the face saying "Deal with it, that's all I have to say" arrogant attitude. Well, that's not cool beans with everyone now is it? And for the fact that the Japanese prime minister of all people has the nerve to go and not explain himself b/c he, as well as the rest of Japan is kinda annoyed at having to deal with all this to begin with.... well folks, I can clearly imagine why Asia is kinda ticked.
US/Europe: *I probably am speaking from a more American perspective than I am a european one, so work with me here*
To us, as far as the general population is concerned, I think it's difficult for most people to grasp the fact that these nations like china and japan have been in existence for so long. While America may be a blantantly patriotic country, how many times have you heard that it is your duty "as an American" to do "~~~'? While we may hear that only every 4 years (it's our duty as Americans to vote), on the flipside, how many times have you heard on Jtv that it is Xさん's duty as a Japanese as a form of motivation one way or another? I think what we have trouble understanding is the deep sense of pride enstilled in many Jp people, and therefore it is hard for us as westernesrs to approach this deeply touchy subject beyond the basic ethics of right and wrong. The reason why Americans see yasukuni as a place that aught to be condemned is because we can only relate yasukuni as a reminder of an Axis enemy (and naturally we think of Japanese general's like Hitler, and no one likes him), and thus we feel compelled to erase this shrine of Jp generals. While the rest of Asia probably believe the Jp generals to be the Asian Hitler equivalent, Americans, the founders of democracy and "fair play" would obvious demand a removal any idols of the atrocities. What the US doesnt' recoginize is that yasukuni is more than a shrine of idolization.... it's a shrine of religion, more specifically a religion that's been founded for who knows who long. Let's face it, no way in hell is anyone just going to stop a tradition which has been going on for 10000000 years, especially a group of people as culturally staunch as the Japanese. But because of cultural differnces, it is difficult for the US to make such request to our newly befriended allies, and it is difficult for the Japanese to say to their newly befriended allies "You guys don't get it.. it's more than that".
*phew*, well in conclusion, what I really think needs to be done is that people just talk without gettting pissed at each other, although I think people on all sides of the globe may be a bit too confused/angry with each other at this point to do that. I really think what Japan needs to do is, rather than shut down when it comes to talking, is the exact opposite. What they really need to do, is seriously talk to china about what they think. I think it would be quite possible to communicate "We aren't changing our ways, but things aren't exactly the way you see them. let me tell you just why we do the things we do." while maintain that infamous Japanese staunchness for culture.
My advice to the rest of Asia is to become less pissed, and more passive aggressive in facing this issue with Japan. Because the Japanese really don't want to bring back up old wounds of being reminded of the horrid atrocities committed, I think it would be kinda futile to ask for $9999999999999 in reparations when dealing with a different generation in political power. Think about black people in the US with reparations. It would be rediculous to ask a completely different generation of government for huge sums of money no matter how bad the crime, b/c apparently ppl aren't too fond of having to say "I'm sorry" for the sins of their fathers (especially when saying sorry means forking over cash). If people were to want to reach a peaceful settlement the way to make peace with a person you're at odds with is to calmly approach them and slowly start off with "let's talk". Hopefully, if the Japanese aren't feeling too introverted, just maybe we can start up some negotiations.
US/Europe: Frankly i think the most we can do is just sit and watch, and encourse asia to friggin get along. I really don't think Japan is going to acknowledge a country so culturally different when it comes to addressing such a cultural issue. I have the feeling that many westerners would get a cold shoulder when addressing the yasukuni issue, but just maybe if we play our cards right someone will listen to what we have to say just a lil bit more.
Blah, why can't we all be friends (>_<) ?
Well, if you reached the end of the mega passage, congrats. go ahead and criticize the hell out of anything I said that sounds odd or didn't come off just right, I can probably be more clear in shorter responses. Anyway, hopefully this will be some food for our brains to munch on for a while, so enjoy.
hanachan
先輩
- 10 Mar 2007
- 265
- 16
And also shows respect and honour to animals that died in the war,
such as military horses and dogs, even carrier pigeon for military communications.
If you have a chance to go Yasukuni, you can see those memorial monuments.
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
Well it seems fitting that all animal's are enshrined together in memorial for service to the country.
I just think it's a shame that JSDF personel that died in service defending Japan can not be enshrined there, only those that died fighting in a war of agression.
To me at least those that died defending Japan, the JSDF, should be honored in the same way. In a way by not allowing them to be enshrined at Yasukuni they are saying that the animal's deserve more honor than the men and women of the JSDF.
D
diceke
Guest
You need to note that the shrine was first constructed to commemorate the dead of the civil war 1868-1869. But I agree, there is no war that's not aggressive.
Those JSDF personnel who died serving the country are enshrined in the Gokoku Shrine, along with the war dead.
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KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
You need to note that the shrine was first constructed to commemorate the dead of the civil war 1868-1869. But I agree, there is no war that's not aggressive.
Those JSDF personnels who died serving the country are enshrined in the Gokoku Shrine, along with the war dead.
However they were refused internment at Yasukuni.
- 17 Sep 2005
- 6,017
- 1,970
Saying that they were refused internment implies that internment was applied for. Do you know if this is the case? (I don't know.)
Because that's different than going straight to the Gokoku shrine without applying and being denied internment at Yasukuni.
