What to do about Yasukuni?

[DaMo]

I've discussed the issue with the Chinese and Koreans many times. Koizumi apparently cannot visit the Yasukuni shrine in official capacity anymore, thanks to a recent court ruling, but even that doesn't seem to satisy those who want Japanese officials to not visit the shrine at all.

How did the remains of the war criminals get interred in the shrine in the first place? That's what I would like to know. Who approved it, and what madness possessed them to do so?

Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

 

[kara]

Afaik

Yasukuni issue has 2 contentions.
1)?violate the constitutional(Article20 & 89) separation of state and religion or not.
2)?violate the Treaty of Peace with Japan(signed at San Francisco, 8 September 1951) or not.

Contention 1) is an absolutely domestic problem, no connection to Chinese & Koreans. And for your information, the recent court opinion(not ruling) you mentioned didn't challenge contention 2) but this, and Japan has appellate courts and the supreme court.

About contention 2), you can read the article 11 of the Treaty of Peace with Japan here. Japanese Diet granted clemency to condemned criminals with "the decision of a majority of the Governments represented on the Tribunal" in Aug/1953. And other war criminals were paroled with respect by 5/may/1958.

In addition, Neither (both)Korea nor the People's Republic of China were invited to the San Francisco Peace Conference. So, they may not have the right to accuse Japan of violating that treaty.

Furthermore, both countries concluded such treaty with Japan which had already granted clemency to them.

Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea(June 22, 1965)


Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China(September 29, 1972)


>Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

It is said there's no way for Shinto tradition. But their dogma/tenets are not so rigid compare to other religions, so there will be some room to compel it like other cases around the world.

 

[shiroma]

孔子

NHK reported on May 16th, 2005

Koizumi: Foreign Countries Should Not Intervene in Yasukuni Shrine Visits​

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has indicated that he will visit Yasukuni Shrine this year, saying it is up to him to decide on the appropriate time.

At a parliamentary committee meeting on Monday, Mr Koizumi referred to the Chinese demand that he stop visiting the controversial shrine in Tokyo.

Mr Koizumi said "Foreign countries should not intervene in how Japan honors its war dead. The issue of enshrined Class-A war criminals is often debated in Parliament. But Confucius of China said 'Condemn the crime, not the criminal'. I will judge for myself when to visit."

Mr Koizumi said China has called on Japan to show repentance through its acts, and that Japan has done so for the past 60 years, since the end of World War Two. Mr Koizumi has visited the shrine annually since taking office in April 2001.

Neighboring countries, including China and South Korea, have been critical of the visits.

Kǒng Zǐ of China said, 伯夷、叔齐不念旧恶，怨是用希.
Modern Chinese seem to feel that this kind of virtue does not necessarily apply to the 倭人 subhumans.

 

[lexico]

Reintegrative Shaming

Confucius of China said 'Condemn the crime, not the criminal'.

This is Buddhist, not Confucian. For the idea to work in reality accountability must come first. Visiting the Yasukuni Shine is not considered accountable because it degrades the world it destoryed by glorifying the chief criminal elements of Imperial Japan that Yasukuni enshrines. What goes thru the minds of people who nervously reacts to outside criticism while taking refuge in the fantasy world of the late Empire ? Let me quote some examples: please tell me what remote chances of accountability you see in it.

"The War Was not With Asia --a Mr.Nishitani

"The war wasn't fought against Asia; we fought against Britain and the US."

"Shedding Asia Rhetoric 脫ﾋ慊ｱﾋ彑 --Fukuzawa Yukichi"

"In Europe (referring to Germany)... they talk about the Holocaust as if it were somebody else's business. ...In Japan's case there are people like Mr. Takahashi who emphasizes the importance of taking the ultimate reponsibility for the Nanjing Massacre, Comfort Women, and Unit 731. But this kind of argument is illogical and wrong. I don't like it. There are those people like me who think that 'philosphy' cannot be such a dreadful thing." (please check with relevant source. The text used for retranslation is not always clear with the pronouns.)

The following is about the idea of 'condemning the crime and not the criminal' and how it is applied in the reintegration of criminals and preventing repeat offenders. (the original page has been removed, and this is a cached version.) I wonder if Mr. Koizumi has any practical plans regarding his reference to the idea, or was it pure smoke rhetoric ?

Comments on John Braithwaite's Theory of Reintegrative Shaming

Professor Braithwaite has defined two different kinds of shame. One kind is stigmatizing shame, which disintegrates the moral bonds between the offender and the community. The other is reintegrative shaming, which strengthens the moral bonds between the offender and the community.
Braithwaite's alternative to stigmatic humiliation is to condemn the crime, not the criminal.

The idea here is that we should hate the sin but love the sinner. It gives offenders the opportunity to re-join their community as law-abiding citizens. In order to earn that right to a fresh start, offenders must express remorse for their past conduct, apologize to any victims and repair the harm caused by the crime.

According to Braithwaite, shaming is the key to controlling all types of crime. Stigmatization (bad shaming) increases crime but reintegrative shaming decreases crime. Reintegrative shaming means that expressions of community disapproval are followed by gestures of reacceptance. When we become outcasts, we reject our rejecters and shame no longer matters to us.

Japan:

This is the only county in the world that has experienced a steady drop in crime for the last 50 years. And this is not simply a response to improvements made after world war two, because crime also dropped from 1976 to 1980, well after war time restoration.

In Japan, prosecution only proceeds when the suspect refuses to apologize and provide compensation to the victim or victims. In fact, less than two percent of those convicted of a crime serve any time in prison. Even 27 percent of those convicted of murder serve no prison time.

Relatives of the criminal and supervisors often commit suicide after the crime occurred. This is part of the shaming process.

In Japan, children’s literature reflects the process of reintegrative shaming. For example, in the Japanese version of Little Red Riding Hood, the wolf falls on his knees and tearfully promises to mend his ways.

There is a cultural assumption of basic goodness, which probably relates to Buddhism. Criminals are thought to be controlled by a bug. Americans are likely to say to a police officer "Why Me?," while Japanese are likely to say, "I’m sorry."

Shaming and repentance builds internal control, or a conscience. Shaming of local offenders (at the neighborhood level) is likely to impress upon kids the wrongness of criminal behavior.

Women are more susceptible to shaming: see page 99 for a path diagram of the theory.

15 summary points about the theory:

1. The deterrence literature suggests that deterrence works primarily through the fear of shame from close friends and family members; not from formal sanctions.

2. Shaming has "general deterrence" value since it deters others who want to avoid shame.

3. Shaming works best for those with strong attachments to other people.

4. Stigmatization breaks down attachments and therefore increases crime.

5. Shaming develops good internal control (a conscience).

6. Repentance after offending builds respect for the law.

7. Citizens become "instruments of social control" with reintegrative shaming.

8. Once one develops a conscience from shaming, "timely anxiety" towards temptation always arises.

9. Shaming includes both the process of building up consciences and the most important means of dealing with crime.

10. Gossip about criminal behavior is important in building up the moral order.

11. The threat of public shaming (e.g., courts) puts pressure on parents and teachers to effectively utilize private shaming.

12. Public shaming helps a society agree about the boundary of deviant versus conforming behavior.

13. Cultures with reintegrative shaming establish a smoother transition to socialization practices in the family and those in the society.

14. Gossip is a good form of shaming because it is not excessively confrontational.

15. The effectiveness of reintegrative shaming is enhanced when it is also directed at the offenders family, co-workers, and friends.


Another site

http://www.restorativejustice.org/rj3/Full-text/Revisitingreintegrativeshaming.pdf

http://vorp.org/vorpnews/9611.pdf

John Braithwaite, a native of Australia, has enlightened us with a theory that has far reaching abilities in the study of crime reduction.

 

[TuskCracker]

.

Yasukuni?

What/Who is this ?

ANSWER; Japanese war memorial, with this;

-> The Yasukuni Shrine is a Shinto shrine located in Tokyo that commemorates Japan's war dead.

-> A big political contravercy surrounds the Yasukuni Shrine because since 1978, fourteen class A war criminals are among the 2.5 million people enshrined at Yasukuni.

 

[shiroma]

恶其意不恶其人

This is Buddhist, not Confucian.

Read 孔丛子 刑论 Kǒngcﾃｳngzǐ Xﾃｭnglﾃｹn.

 

[lexico]

Read ﾂ孔丛ﾅｽq ﾅ炭论 Kǒngcﾃｳngzǐ Xﾃｺ窶ｹglﾃｹn.

1. Fine. Please tell me the exact, literal translation of 恶窶伉ｴﾋ?凪?｢s恶窶伉ｴﾂ人. What is the context of said passage ? Would you say NHK's rendering of Mr. Koizumi's statement a faithful one to the original ? Or does it exactly reproduce Mr. Koizumi's wording ? The discrepancy is obvious, so one shouldn't quote Confucius for some easy cover. That's called the fallacy of false authority.

quote: ﾂ孔窶湾ﾅｽqﾂ　ﾅ?ﾂｿﾂ　ﾂ孔窶｢ﾂｩ ﾂ〔ﾅ炭ﾋ彑窶佚ｦﾅｽlﾂ〕 with permission for non-commercial use

窶吮?｡窶ｹ|窶禿｢ﾅ津??抃ﾅ炭窶ｹﾂｳﾃ､oﾂ債｡窶抃ﾅ炭窶ｹﾂｳﾂ． ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾHﾅ津??抃ﾅ炭ﾂ湘按． ﾂ債｡窶抃ﾅ炭窶敕可． 窶伉ｴﾋ?冷?ｹﾂｳﾂ． ﾅ津??猫ﾃ｢Xﾂ． 窶漏ﾅ津｣窶猫ﾅ炭ﾂ． ﾂ青･ﾋ?闇炭ﾂ湘按． ﾂ債｡窶督ｳﾃ｢Xﾋ?遺?ｹﾂｳﾂ． ﾅｽﾂｧﾃｪﾅｽ窶抃ﾋ?闇炭ﾂ． ﾅ炭ﾂ青･ﾋ?遺?敕可． ﾂ鞘?佛ｾHﾂ． 窶敘塚?篠降窶弋ﾂ． ﾂ静懌?督ｯﾋ?崘炭ﾂ． ﾋ??ﾂ静ｦﾃ｢Xﾋ?遺?ｹﾂｳ窶抃ﾂ． 窶漏ﾅ津｣ﾃ｣窶ｹﾋ?闇炭ﾂ静懌?抃窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶｢v窶督ｳﾃ｢X窶伉･窶督ｯ窶督ｳ窶冪ﾂ． ﾅｽﾂｧﾂ青ｳ窶抃ﾋ?闇炭ﾂ． ﾅ津娯?督ｯ茍窶禿?． ﾂ孔ﾅｽq窶廳窶ｰqﾂ、窶ｰq窶ｺ窶卩坦窶｢ﾂｶﾅｽq窶禿｢ﾅｾHﾂ、ﾅ津｡窶｢ﾂｷﾋ廛ﾅ津ｶ窶｢ﾆ椎ｽﾂ≫?｢s窶拿ﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ坂?督． ﾂ信ﾅ津?． ﾂ孔ﾅｽq窶愬｡ﾅｾHﾂ、窶｢s窶冦窶伉ｴ窶｢s窶拿窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶｢vﾅ津ｶ窶｢ﾆ椎ｽﾂ≫?抃ﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ坂?督． 窶猫ﾂ催淒ｽﾃ椎禿ｴﾂ． 窶督ｳﾂ催淒ｽﾃ停?冪ﾂ． 窶｢ﾂｶﾅｽqﾅｾH窶猫ﾂ催淒ｽﾃ椎禿ｴﾂ． ﾂ青･ﾃ｣ﾃ｣窶抃ﾅｽ@ﾂ． ﾅ炭窶抃ﾃ｡c窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶督ｳﾂ催淒ｽﾃ停?冪ﾂ． 窶ｰﾂｽﾅ津?． ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾHﾃｪﾅｽ窶抃ﾋ?暗｢Xﾂ． 窶伉･窶督ｯ窶冪ﾃ｡ﾃ｡ﾂ． ﾅ炭ﾋ?闇ｽ~ﾅ炭ﾂ． 窶伉･窶督ｯﾅ禿ｴﾃ｡ﾃ｡ﾂ． 窶｢ﾂｶﾅｽqﾅｾHﾂ債｡ﾃｪﾅｽ窶抃ﾋ?闇炭ﾂ． ﾅ炭窶捻窶｢ﾂ､ﾂ焦ｸ窶ｰﾂｽﾃ｢X窶抃ﾃｪﾅｽﾂ． ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾHﾋ?暗｢Xﾃｪﾅｽ窶督ｯﾃｦﾂ?窶抃窶ｰ窶版津､窶伉･ﾅ奪窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾋ?闇炭ﾃｪﾅｽ窶督ｯﾃｦﾂ?窶抃窶ｰ窶版津､窶伉･窶｢ﾃ壺?禿ｧﾂ． ﾅｽﾂｷﾅ奪窶ｰ窶板最ｸﾅｽﾂｧ窶慊ｮ窶ｰ窶披?敕槐津､窶抃窶氾??｢ﾂｶﾅｽqﾅｾH吳窶ｰz窶抃窶伉ｭ窶督ｳﾃ｢Xﾅｽﾂｧ窶凪?卩ｽﾂ｡ﾂ． 窶ｰﾂｽ窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾHﾂ、窶｢v吳窶ｰz窶抃窶伉ｭﾂ． 窶冕ﾂ鞘?披?督ｳ窶｢ﾃ環． 窶慊ｯ窶ｺﾃｸﾅｽﾂｧ窶板?． 窶督ｯﾃｧj窶佛?窶敕?． ﾅ津娯?伉ｴﾅ炭ﾂ重ﾅｽﾂｧ窶｢sﾂ焦ｸﾂ． 窶燃窶督ｳﾃ｢X窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶吮??ﾅ｡ﾂ?窶抃窶ｹﾂｳﾂ． ﾋ?稜?O內ﾋ?遺?｢ﾃ岩?冕ﾂ鞘?板． ﾋ?卩?ﾃｭ窶｢ﾅｾﾋ?闇ｽﾃｪ窶懌┐窶氾楪． ﾅ津娯?伉ｴ窶督ｯ窶愿?ｽﾂｧ窶邸ﾂ． 窶伉ｴﾅ炭ﾃｧjﾅｽﾂｧﾂ焦ｸﾂ． 窶燃窶猫ﾃ｢X窶禿ｧﾂ．

ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾHﾂ、窶督ｯ窶抃ﾂ焦?ﾋ?按青ｶﾅｽﾃ塚?淞食窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾂ湘｣窶｢s窶ｹﾂｳ窶督ｯﾂ． 窶督ｯ邃｢ﾂｺ窶伉ｴﾂ青ｶﾂ． 窶ｹQﾅ?ﾂｦﾂ静倪?ｰ窶板身ﾅｽﾂｧ窶｢sﾋ?冷?敕ｱﾅｽﾃ停?ｰﾃ?｡ﾃ｡ﾂ． ﾅ津固津??抃窶ｰ窶版ｸXﾂ． ﾅ督ｦ窶抃ﾅｽﾂｧ窶｢sﾅｽE窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾂ債｡窶｢sﾂ静ｦ窶伉ｴ窶ｹﾂｳﾅｽﾂｧﾋ?ｪﾅｽE窶抃ﾂ． ﾂ青･ﾋ?遺?敖ｱﾂ行ﾅｽﾂｧ窶榔窶｢s窶敖ｽﾂ． ﾅ炭窶卍｣ﾅｽﾂｧﾂ催溪?｢sﾂ湘按． 窶｢vﾂ静版ｽq窶冦窶｢ﾃｧ窶伉ｴ窶｢ﾆ停?｢ﾃｪﾂ． 窶燃ﾂ審ﾅ津娯?禿ｧﾂ． 窶ｹﾂｵﾋ?猟青ｭﾅｽﾃ停?僖窶伉ｴﾅ陳ｫﾅｽﾃ椎ｽﾂｧﾃ､o窶伉ｴ窶｢sﾅ陳ｫﾅｽﾃ塚?遺?ｰﾂｻ窶督ｯﾅ津?． 窶冦ﾂ審ﾂ最ｸ窶愿ｱﾅｽﾃ停?伉･ﾂ湘｣ﾅｸX窶伉ｧﾂ． ﾂ湘｣ﾅｸX窶捻窶佚･ﾅｸX窶禿ｧﾂ鞘?佛ｾHﾃ､ﾂ｢ﾅｸu窶敖ｱ窶猫窶氾渉． ﾅｽq窶卍｣窶禿｢ﾅｾH窶ｰﾂｽﾋ??窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾH窶｢sﾅｽﾂｸ窶伉ｴ窶板昶?抃ﾋ??窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾂ債｡ﾂ鞘?敘津ｲ窶｢s窶慊ｯﾃｺﾂｺﾂ． ﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾅ誰窶凖ｦ? ﾅｾH窶敕ｱﾅ渡ﾋ?崘渡ﾂ． ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾHﾅ誰ﾅｽq窶抃窶ｰ窶板人窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶猫窶｢sﾅ津ｪ窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶督ｳ窶｢sﾃ｣ﾃ｣窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶ｹﾂｵﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ湘稜津?． 窶｢Kﾃ｡ﾂｶ窶伉ｴﾃｧ窶?ﾃ｡ﾃ｡ﾂ． 窶｢vﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ湘稜ｽﾃ陳． ﾋ?ｽﾅ渡窶伉ｴﾂ湘ｮﾂ． ﾋ?ｽﾅ渡窶伉ｴﾃｧ窶?ﾂ． ﾃｧ窶?窶｢s窶ｰﾃで渡ﾂ． 窶｢Kﾂ敕斥?按湘ｮﾂ． ﾂ鞘?佛ｾHﾂ人窶猫ﾂ渉ｬﾂ催淞、窶敕ｱ眚ﾂ、窶抖ﾋ?陳終ﾂ、ﾅｽﾂｩﾂ催ｬ窶｢s窶弋ﾂ、ﾅｽﾂｮﾅｽﾂ｢窶猫邃｢ﾃ篠催淞渉ｬﾂ、窶抖窶｢s窶ｰﾃや?｢sﾅｽEﾂ、窶抖窶猫窶佚･ﾂ催淞、窶敕ｱﾂ終ﾂ、窶抖ﾋ??#30490;ﾂ催青、窶廳ﾅｽﾂ｢ﾅ?ﾃｹ窶慊ｹ窶ｹﾃ俄┐ﾃ偲ｧﾆ陳、ﾅｽﾅｾ窶抖窶｢s窶ｰﾃでｽEﾂ．

窶禄ﾅｽq窶禿｢ﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ坂?凪?抃ﾂ術ﾂ、ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾH窶伉ｴ窶佚･窶邸窶猫ﾅｽOﾃ?ﾂ?． ﾅｽﾂ｡窶｢Kﾋ?暗ｺﾂｪﾃｺﾂｪ窶抃窶抃ﾂ術ﾅｸd窶ｰ窶版ｽ@ﾅｽ@窶抃窶抃ﾂ術ﾅｸd窶ｰ窶披?ｹ`ﾂ． ﾂ青･ﾅ津古｣ﾃ｣ﾅｽﾂｧ窶｢sﾃｺﾂｪﾂ青･ﾋ慊ｪ窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾃｺﾂｪﾅｽﾂｧ窶｢sﾅｽ@ﾂ青･窶督昶?禿ｧﾂ． ﾅｽ@ﾅｽﾂｧ窶｢s窶吮??窶ｹ`ﾂ青･ﾅｽ窶樞?禿ｧﾂ． ﾅｽ窶樞?伉･窶督ｯ窶ｰ窶ｦﾂ． ﾅ津娯?榔ﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾅｽﾃ津･ﾂｫ窶｢s窶ｰzﾃｧ窶?ﾂ． ﾃｧ窶?窶｢s窶ｰzﾂ湘ｮﾂ． ﾂ湘ｮ窶｢s窶ｰz窶ｹ`ﾂ． ﾂ鞘?佛ｾHﾂ湘｣窶ｰﾂｺ窶敕､窶敖ｱﾂ、窶督ｳ邃｢Gﾋ慊ｪﾃｧ窶?ﾂ、ﾂ鞘?佛ｾHﾋ?｣ﾃ｡ﾃ?ﾂ静慊坂?督、窶吮?｡窶ｹ|窶禿｢ﾅｾH窶ｰﾂｽﾋ??窶禿ｧﾂ、ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾHﾅ津??抃ﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ湘稜ｽﾃ陳． ﾅｽ@窶｢n窶ｹ窶｡ﾋ?｣ﾅ津??ﾃ補?ｹyﾃｩﾃ帚?ｰﾃ?弖ﾅｽﾃ｣窶｢sﾂ湘打ｽﾂｧ窶督ｳﾂ債税ｽﾃ陳． ﾃ･ﾂｫ窶慊ｾ窶伉ｴﾂ湘ｮﾂ． 窶｢Kﾋ?｣ﾃ｡ﾃ?窶抃ﾂ． ﾂ?毒ｽﾃ停?｢s窶ｰﾃつ青ｶﾂ． ﾂ敕税ｽﾃ停?｢s窶ｰﾃや?ｺﾂ｢ﾅｽﾃ｡ﾋ弖ﾅｽﾂｧﾅ炭窶抃ﾋ??窶抃ﾅ督｡ﾂ． ﾅｽﾃ｣ﾅｽﾂｧﾅ炭窶抃ﾋ??窶抃邃｢ﾅｽﾂ． 窶｢sﾅｽﾃ坂?ｰﾃ淪??窶抃窶ｹtﾂ． 窶板ｦ窶ｰﾃ淪?按渉ｬﾂ催淪??窶抃ﾅｾkﾂ． ﾋ?ｪﾂ催ｬ疻窶捻ﾂ渉昶?禿ｧ窶｢v窶ｰﾃ溪?伉･窶ｹX窶濡ﾅｽﾃ｡窶板ｦﾋ?依?猟渉ｬﾂ催溪?凪?卍渉敘津≫?ｹ`ﾅ津娯?濡窶ｰﾃ淒ｽﾃ債渉ｬﾂ催淞． ﾋ弖ﾅｽﾃ｣窶｢sﾅｽﾃｳﾅ炭ﾂ． ﾂ静ｦ窶ｰﾂ､窶抃窶慊ｹ窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾂ鞘?佛ｾH窶佚･ﾃｧ窶樞?ｹ^ﾅｽﾃ債、窶凪?敘ｾHﾃ､o窶伉ｴﾅｽE窶｢sﾃｧﾆ陳、窶扣ﾅｽﾂｸ窶｢sﾃ｣Sﾂ、ﾂ鞘?佛ｾHﾅｽﾃ｡窶｢ﾃ崢静版ｽqﾂ、ﾅｽq窶卍｣窶禿｢ﾅｾHﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ湘冷?ｰﾃね?闇ｽﾃ｡ﾂ最ｸﾅ津?、ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾅｾH窶ｰﾃつ催?． ﾅ津??抃ﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ湘稜ｽﾃ陳． ﾅ督ｦ窶伉ｴﾋ?凪?｢sﾅ督ｦ窶伉ｴﾂ人ﾂ． 窶ｹﾂ?焦?ﾋ?按青ｶ窶抃ﾂ． 窶｢s窶慊ｾ窶伉ｴﾂ焦?ﾋ?按青ｶ窶抖ﾅ炭窶抃ﾂ． ﾅ誰窶｢Kﾃ､o眾窶ｹﾂ､ﾃ?ﾂ?． ﾂ債｡窶抃ﾃ｣ﾃ｣ﾂ湘稜ｽﾃ陳． 窶｢sﾅ督ｦ窶伉ｴﾋ?毒ｽﾂｧﾅ督ｦ窶伉ｴﾂ人ﾂ． 窶ｹﾂ?焦?ﾋ?闇ｽEﾂ． ﾂ青･窶敖ｽﾅ津??抃窶慊ｹ窶禿ｧﾂ．

窶禿税ｽﾂ≫?抃ﾂ臣窶敖ｾﾂ、窶｢ﾂ絶?敘停?禿｢ﾂ孔ﾅｽqﾂ、ﾅｾH窶戞窶抃窶ｰﾂｽﾂ．ﾃ､ﾂｧﾅｾHﾂ臣ﾂ人ﾅｽﾂｧ窶敖ｾﾂ． 窶弖窶ｰﾂｺﾂ焦?窶｢s窶覇窶禿ｧﾂ． 窶伉ｴ狀ﾅｽﾂｩ窶敖ｽﾂ． ﾅｽqﾅ津??佚停?抃ﾂ． ﾅｽOﾂ旬窶ｰﾃ看ｽﾂｩﾅｸd窶禿税ｽﾂ?． 窶｢ﾂ絶?敘停?ｺ窶卩ｽﾂｷ窶抃ﾂ． 窶適ﾋ慊ｰ窶｢vﾅｽqﾂ． 窶｢vﾅｽqﾅｾH窶督ｳ窶禿ｧﾂ． ﾅｽq窶抃窶ｰ窶板臣ﾂ． ﾃ｢Xﾋ?凪?｢sﾅｽﾅ?ﾂ青･ﾋ?遺?ｹﾅｽﾅｽqﾂ． ﾂ債｡窶伉ｴﾅｽﾂｩ窶敖ｽﾂ． ﾂ催淪?遺?敖ｽﾂ焦督． 窶凪?昶?ｰﾂｽﾅｽﾂｷﾃ?ﾂ?． ﾅｽqﾂ修ﾃ｢Xﾋ?遺?佚停?抃ﾂ． 窶伉･ﾂ臣窶ｹﾅｽﾅｽq窶ｺ窶厖??窶ｰﾂ敖． 窶｢ﾂ絶?敘停?抖ﾅｽ~ﾂ．


2. What is your understanding of the Analects of Confucius passage ?

論ﾅ津ｪ ﾅ津ｶ窶禿ｨ窶卍ｷ窶｢ﾃ停?佚ｦﾅ津?窶愿ｱﾂ十窶愿ｱ ﾅｽqﾅｾH,窶敘塚?篠叔ﾃｪﾅｽ窶｢s窶抂窶ｹﾅ?#24694;窶ｰ窶ｦﾂ青･窶廃ﾅ?ﾃｳ

[edit2: 18:10 May 21, 2005, Tokyo Standard Time. Appended message 17:30 moved to new post.]

 

[shiroma]

Visiting the Yasukuni Shine is not considered accountable because it degrades the world it destoryed by glorifying the chief criminal elements of Imperial Japan that Yasukuni enshrines.

Link

The specific issue of Yasukuni Shrine did come up in our discussion, and I listened to the view expressed by the Chinese side. I explained in my response that I pay my respects at Yasukuni out of my belief that we must never again fight in wars.

The rest of the world is wise enough to refrain from publicly blaming or judging religious behavior of foreign culture, in order to avoid possible crash of civilizations.

Those who are intolerant of pagans might not care about a strange yet interesting way of handling evil ghosts, the 菅原道真 and 平将門 cases for instance.

 

[lexico]

窶督ｼ窶督ｳ窶堋ｵ,

Please assume responsibility for your posts Nos. 3 and 6, and answer my questions in post No. 7. This is an English section and you've failed to supply English translations of Chinese passages that you've provided.

Please do so at your earliest convenience. Otherwise you are being disrespectful of members who do not speak Japanese or read kanji. Who knows what these passages mean to Mr. Koizumi or you ? You wouldn't want to be considered contemptful of members, would you ?

Regards, Lexico

 

[shiroma]

脱亜入欧

"Shedding Asia Rhetoric 脫亞論 --Fukuzawa Yukichi"

Fukuzawa was disappointed by the backward attitudes of Northeast Asian countries when the Western colonialism was reaching there.
He concluded that it was unrealistic to expect their awakening to form an ally for blocking the threats together, and advised that Japan should embrace westernization alone, leaving the rest of the Northeast Asia.
That is what his Datsuaron published on Mar. 16th 1885 meant.
It is easy to imagine how he became sick of people living in the past back then.

Interestingly some people seem to believe that Datsuaron is an essay that insisted that Japan should colonize Asia just like Western countries. Let's see if there is anything like that in the original text.

　世界交通の道、便にして、西洋文明の風、東に漸し、至る處、草も気も此風に靡かざるはなし。蓋し西洋の人物、古今に大に異なるに非ずと雖ども、其擧動の古に遅鈍にして今に活發なるは、唯交通の利器を利用して勢に乗ずるが故のみ。故に方今当用に國するものゝ為に謀るに、此文明の東漸の勢に激して之を防ぎ了る可きの覺悟あれば則ち可なりと雖ども、苟も世界中の現状を視察して事實に不可ならんを知らん者は、世と推し移りて共に文明の海に浮沈し、共に文明の波を掲げて共に文明の苦樂を與にするの外ある可らざるなり。
　文明は猶麻疹の流行の如し。目下東京の麻疹は西國長崎の地方より東漸して、春暖と共に次第に蔓延する者の如し。此時に當り此流行病の害を惡て此れを防がんとするも、果して其手段ある可きや。我輩斷じて其術なきを證す。有害一遍の流行病にても尚且其勢には激す可らず。況や利害相伴ふて常に利益多き文明に於てをや。當に之を防がざるのみならず、力めて其蔓延を助け、國民をして早く其氣風に浴せしむるは智者の事なる可し。
　西洋近時の文明が我日本に入りたるは嘉永の開國を發端として、國民漸く其採る可きを知り、漸次に活發の氣風を催ふしたれども、進歩の道に横はるに古風老大の政府なるものありて、之を如何ともす可らず。政府を保存せん歟、文明は決して入る可らず。如何となれば近時の文明は日本の舊套と兩立す可らずして、舊套を脱すれば同時に政府も亦廢滅す可ければなり。然ば則ち文明を防て其侵入を止めん歟、日本國は獨立す可らず。如何となれば世界文明の喧嘩繁劇は東洋孤島の獨睡を許さゞればなり。
　是に於てか我日本の士人は國を重しとし政府を輕しとするの大義に基き、又幸に帝室の神聖尊嚴に依頼して、斷じて舊政府を倒して新政府を立て、國中朝野の別なく一切萬事西洋近時の文明を採り、獨り日本の舊套を脱したるのみならず、亞細亞全洲の中に在て新に一機軸を出し、主義とする所は唯脱亞の二字にあるのみなり。
　我日本の國土は亞細亞の東邊に在りと雖ども、其國民の精神は既に亞細亞の固陋を脱して西洋の文明に移りたり。然るに爰に不幸なるは近隣に國あり、一を支那と云い、一を朝鮮と云ふ。此二國の人民も古來亞細亞流の政教風俗に養はるゝこと、我日本國に異ならずと雖ども、其人種の由來を殊にするか、但しは同様の政教風俗中に居ながらも遺傳教育の旨に同じからざる所のものある歟、日支韓三國三國相對し、支と韓と相似るの状は支韓の日に於けるよりも近くして、此二國の者共は一身に就き又一國に關してして改進の道を知らず。交通至便の世の中に文明の事物を聞見せざるに非ざれども耳目の聞見は以て心を動かすに足らずして、其古風舊慣に變々するの情は百千年の古に異ならず、此文明日新の活劇場に教育の事を論ずれば儒教主義と云ひ、學校の教旨は仁義禮智と稱し、一より十に至るまで外見の虚飾のみを事として、其實際に於ては眞理原則の知見なきのみか、道徳さえ地を拂ふて殘刻不廉恥を極め、尚傲然として自省の念なき者の如し。
　我輩を以て此二國を視れば今の文明東漸の風潮に際し、迚も其獨立を維持するの道ある可らず。幸にして其の國中に志士の出現して、先づ國事開進の手始めとして、大に其政府を改革すること我維新の如き大擧を企て、先づ政治を改めて共に人心を一新するが如き活動あらば格別なれども、若しも然らざるに於ては、今より數年を出でずして亡國と爲り、其國土は世界文明諸國の分割に歸す可きこと一點の疑あることなし。如何となれば麻疹に等しき文明開化の流行に遭ひながら、支韓兩國は其傳染の天然に背き、無理に之を避けんとして一室内に閉居し、空氣の流通を絶て窒塞するものなればなり。輔車唇歯とは隣國相助くるの喩なれども、今の支那朝鮮は我日本のために一毫の援助と爲らざるのみならず、西洋文明人の眼を以てすれば、三國の地利相接するが爲に、時に或は之を同一視し、支韓を評するの價を以て我日本に命ずるの意味なきに非ず。
　例へば支那朝鮮の政府が古風の専制にして法律の恃む可きものあらざれば、西洋の人は日本も亦無法律の國かと疑ひ、支那朝鮮の士人が惑溺深くして科學の何ものたるを知らざれば、西洋の學者は日本も亦陰陽五行の國かと思ひ、支那人が卑屈にして恥を知らざれば、日本人の義侠も之がために掩はれ、朝鮮國に人を刑するの惨酷なるあれば、日本人も亦共に無情なるかと推量せらるゝが如き、是等の事例を計れば、枚擧に遑あらず。之を喩へば比隣軒を竝べたる一村一町内の者共が、愚にして無法にして然も殘忍無情なるときは、稀に其町村内の一家人が正當の人事に注意するも、他の醜に掩はれて湮没するものに異ならず。其影響の事實に現はれて、間接に我外交上の故障を成すことは實に少々ならず、我日本國の一大不幸と云ふ可し。
　左れば、今日の謀を爲すに、我國は隣國の開明を待て共に亞細亞を興すの猶豫ある可らず、寧ろその伍を脱して西洋の文明國と進退を共にし、其支那朝鮮に接するの法も隣國なるが故にとて特別の會釋に及ばず、正に西洋人が之に接するの風に從て處分す可きのみ。惡友を親しむ者は共に惡友を免かる可らず。我は心に於て亞細亞東方の惡友を謝絶するものなり。

 

[lexico]

窶督ｼ窶督ｳ窶堋ｵ,

Thanks for answering, albeit in part, post No. 7. But it's still not in English. Could you kindly provide a literal English translation if it's not too much trouble ?

Also, I hate to remind you to please assume responsibility for your posts Nos. 3 and 6 IN ASCENDING ORDER, and respond to my other questions in post No. 7 also. Please take your time in answering them, perhaps one at a time.

Regards, Lexico

 

[Mike Cash]

How did the remains of the war criminals get interred in the shrine in the first place? That's what I would like to know. Who approved it, and what madness possessed them to do so?

Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

So basically you wish to deprive others of their freedom of religion?

 

[qwertyu]

Deprive them of their religious rights? What do you think if Hitler were enshrined in the Kolner Dom and the Jews were to protest visits there by Shroeder/Kohl? Would they be trying to deprive them from practising Catholicism?? Enshrining a war criminal in a place of worship is a political act, as is its protest.

Also, "Condemn the crime, not the criminal?" The problem here is that the "crime" isn't even condemned!! Yasukuni Shrine isn't just a Shinto temple, it is a Valhahal to the extreme defense of Japan's WWII history and neo-fascist Revisionism of the most blatant variety. Those rightwing LDP members like Ishihara also hold the same views. Here's what it says in wikipedia:

"In the People's Republic of China and South Korea, the shrine has become embroiled in controversy as a symbol of Japanese Militarism of the World War II, and a symbolic center of Japanese right-wing nationalism.



A pamphlet published by the shrine says "War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors." In others, the shrine runs a museum on the history of Japan, commemorating the soldiers who fought for Japan, remembering them as Kami. The English website claims that "Japan’s dream of building a Great East Asia was necessitated by history and it was sought after by the countries of Asia." The Japanese website claims that "Comfort women were not forced to serve by the Japanese Empire. Koreans were not forced to change their names to Japanese ones." The shrine also points to atrocities committed by the Allied forces, such as the sinking of the Tsushima Maru, a transport ship torpedoed and sunk leading to the deaths over 1500 people, of which 700 were elementary school children. A documentary-style video shown to museum visitors portrays Japan's conquest of east Asia during the pre-World War II as an effort to save east Asia from the imperial advances of western powers.



About 1,000 POWs executed for war crimes during World War II are enshrined here. This was not a political issue back then as Yasukuni was supposed to enshrine all Japanese War casualties. However, on October 17, 1978, 14 Class A war criminals (according to the judgement of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East), including Hideki Tojo, were quietly enshrined as "Martyrs of Showa" (ﾂ渉ｺﾋ彗ﾂ殉窶愿ｯﾅｽﾃ Sh窶ｦﾅｾwa junnansha). ....When revealed to the media on April 19, 1979, this started a controversy which rages to this day. The shrine has further angered many with its defiant defense of the war criminals; the same pamphlet mentioned above also claims: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here." The shrine's English-language website refers to those 1,068 as those "who were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces." After the revelation of 1979, the Emperor of Japan stopped paying visits to the shrine and this has remained the case ever since. However there are also strong voices amongst the people of Japan in support of the visits [1]窶ｦA(asahi.com : ニュース特集), including Governor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara, who on August 15, 2004, indicated his strong hope for the Emperor to once again start paying visits to the shrine.



The controversial nature of the shrine has figured largely in both domestic Japanese politics and the country's relations with other countries in the region in the years since 1978. Three Japanese prime ministers have caused an uproar by visiting the shrine since then: Yasuhiro Nakasone in 1985, Ryutaro Hashimoto in 1996, and especially Junichiro Koizumi, who visited four times, in August 13, 2001, April 23, 2002, January 15, 2003 and January 1, 2004. Visits by prime ministers to the shrine generally provoke official condemnation by nations in the region, especially the People's Republic of China and South Korea, as they see such action as the the attempt to legitimise Japanese Militarism. Visits to the shrine also are controversial in the domestic debate over the proper role of religion in government: Some of LDP politicians insist that visits are protected by the constitutional right of the freedom of religion and that it is appropriate for legislators to pay their respects to those fallen in war. However, they refuse any proposal that a non-religious memorial be built for Japan's military dead so that those wishing to honor them do not have to visit the Yasukuni Shrine. The shrine also objects to any proposal that a non-religious memorial be built and the shrine claims that "The Yasukuni Shrine must be one and only memorial for Japan's military dead."

It is not a religious site but an obviously political one.

 

[Mike Cash]

You're letting your rage blind you.

I agree that the war criminals enshrined there are despicable people. And I think that politicians making visits is ill-advised, to say the least.

Just because you don't like their politics doesn't make it any less a religious site. Nor does it make the enshrinement any less religious an expression.

There are those in the world today who could make just as heated and just as (seemingly) pertinent arguments to rationalize asking the question, "Who thought up Islam and what can we do to eradicate it?"

We may not like what some or all adherents of a certain religion or faith subscribe to, but that doesn't make outside pressure to force them to change any less an expression of religious intolerance and bigotry.

It's no moral challenge to stand up for tolerance of that which doesn't offend us. The test is in standing up for that which does.

 

[sabro]

And to think that Shoeless Joe and Charlie Hustle can't get into Cooperstowm.

 

[qwertyu]

You're letting your rage blind you.

Rage? Please point out the "rage" bits. The bulk of my post was a cut and paste from wikipedia.

Just because you don't like their politics doesn't make it any less a religious site. Nor does it make the enshrinement any less religious an expression.

So? By adopting a blatant political stand, it opens itself to political charges. Just because it is a religious entity doesn't mean it cannot be criticised for its political role. You Americans do not seem to mind condemning Saudi Wahhabism and cracking down on it for its "extremism". So, are you interfering in Muslim religious freedom??

There are those in the world today who could make just as heated and just as (seemingly) pertinent arguments to rationalize asking the question, "Who thought up Islam and what can we do to eradicate it?"

At this juncture, I seriously question your sanity. The Chinese and Koreans ARE NOT SEEKING TO ERADICATE SHINTOISM. I need to cap this because you seem not to notice. How can anyone even make such an unbelievably stupid and outlandish "analogy"? That protesting the eulogising of a heinous invasion that killed 20 million and those who committed crimes against humanity tantamounts to infringing on shintoism?

We may not like what some or all adherents of a certain religion or faith subscribe to, but that doesn't make outside pressure to force them to change any less an expression of religious intolerance and bigotry.

Read this s l o w l y, since you seem to have difficulty in comprehension. Nobody, but not a soul, is asking the Japanese to change the religion of shintoism. Unless of course it is the religion of Shintoism, not just Yasukuni, that advocates and defends invasion and colonisation of other countries and killing civilians in the millions for a Greater Japanese Empire!

This isn't about religion per se, this protest is against the POLITICAL stance of Yasukuni Shrine summed up previously. Nobody gives a toss whether it is a Shinto or Buddhist or Falungong or Christian or Muslim or Hari Krishna Shrine. It is the highly offensive political manifesto and the entire WWII context of what Yasukuni says it represents that riles the former victims of Japan. Did anyone raise a ruckus about the shinto religion at all?

It's no moral challenge to stand up for tolerance of that which doesn't offend us. The test is in standing up for that which does.

Are you quoting Bush? This is complete gibberish. I'm perplexed. So, if something offends me, say, fascism or racism, the "moral challenge" or "test" for me is to stand up for it? How about since you are offended by the Chinese/Korean protests, you stand up for them? How about making the demand on the Japanese to defer to its former victims for a change, since this undoubtedly pains you?

It's not so much the so-called "rage", but your, um, brilliance that blinds.

 

[qwertyu]

It seems it even violates the peace treaties signed by Japan. From the Washington Times, a pro-Republican paper even:

Continent’s titans clash

Minoru Morita, a political analyst in Tokyo, pointed to Article 11 of the post-World War II Treaty of Peace with Japan: "Japan accepts the judgments of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and of other Allied War Crimes Court."
窶ｦA窶ｦA窶ｦA窶ｦA"By accepting them, Japan was allowed to rejoin the international community and its independence was officially recognized," Mr. Morita said. Based on the premise of the 1951 treaty, Japan also signed peace treaties with China and South Korea.
窶ｦA窶ｦA窶ｦA窶ｦA"It is treaty violation" that a Japanese prime minister pays his respects at Yasukuni Shrine, Mr. Morita said. "So I have said he must stop doing so at any cost. Japanese politicians, however, think they are allowed because the U.S. does not say anything."

The bigger question may be why the US thinks it is in their interest to stoke this mischief. Divide and conquer?

 

[lexico]

Invented Traditions of the Meiji or 1990's ?

Yasukuni issue ...
>Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

It is said there's no way for Shinto tradition.

I'll make it quick, simple, and painless. To call Yasukuni Shintoism a long established religious tradition of Japan is the greatest piece of blatant lie that's been going around as much as the Tenno worship as a living god was a lie.
I'm not exactly going to debase myself by linking up the comical 'tradition' flash image, but we can rest assured Yasukini tradition dates no further back than 1869 (built as ﾂ渉ｵﾂ債ｰﾅｽﾃ?-1879 (renamed as 窶禿ｵﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾅｽﾃ?. It was an invented tradition just like the Taekwondo 窶伉ｾﾅ陳昶?慊ｹ of Korea was invented during the time of Pres. Li, Sungman, or the Korean National Flag was conceived of in Sept. 1882 by Emperor Kojong ﾂ坂?堋宗; subsequently used for the first time on foreign soil, Kobe, during Bak Yonghyo's mission to Japan on Sept. 25, 1882.

Historical revisionists like Ashizu Uzuhiko criticises the occupation policy makers at the US Pentgon;

"They turned (state) shinto into a grotesque idol, and on that basis, applied pressure on the Japanes people who believed in it."

"The Japanese cultured collaborators helped the Ocupation Powers draw up the state shinto image which is nothing more than an ideoligical fabrication to confound the Japanese people."

Koyasu Nobukuni only relays the facts, but Ashizu has a point. The current fervor with Yasukuni shrine is an even more recent invention that's been jazzed up to negate, and in defiance of, the Allied Powers requirements of SCAP orders and the articles of San Francisco Peace Treaty 1952.

According to this interesting view by Mr. Ashizu, although contrary to his intentions, Yasukuni shintoism as we see it today has arguably a 12 year tradition if we can call it a tradition.

And what about the War Museum 窶之ﾂ就ﾅ?ﾃ? annex to the Yasukuni shrine, housing 10,000 pieces of weaponry including naval fighters and the last cannons from Okinawa ? It just keeps getting uglier as we look closer.

references:

Murakami Shigeyoshi 窶伉ｺﾂ湘｣ﾂ重窶氾 [ﾅ｡ﾂ?窶ｰﾃ?神窶慊ｹ] 1970

"The national shinto is a national religion invented by the modern Tenno-ruled state; it dominated the minds of the Japanese people during the near 80 year period from the Meiji restoration to the Pacific War. This newly invented state religion of the late 19th century combined the two shintos of shrine shintoism and royal shintoism; employing the courtly rites as its base, it wove into its fabric the two rites of Ise and the shrine."

Murakami Shigeyoshi 窶伉ｺﾂ湘｣ﾂ重窶氾 [窶弖ﾂ皇窶堙個催頁ｽﾃ疹 1977

"State shintoism was established during the Meiji 10's (1877-1886) when Japan sought to separate rites and religion and distinguised shrine shintoism from other religions and invented the state rite as a supra-religious state rite. This newly created state rite in content is a religion that directly associated royal shitoism and shrine shintoism, and precisely amounts to having all shrines submit to the religious authority of the Tenno."

Koyasu Nobukuni [Kokkato saishi] Seidosha 2004

 

[Mike Cash]

Rage? Please point out the "rage" bits. The bulk of my post was a cut and paste from wikipedia.




So? By adopting a blatant political stand, it opens itself to political charges. Just because it is a religious entity doesn't mean it cannot be criticised for its political role. You Americans do not seem to mind condemning Saudi Wahhabism and cracking down on it for its "extremism". So, are you interfering in Muslim religious freedom??

"You Americans"? I thought it was Mike Cash, individual, and some anonymous string of adjacent keyboard characters, individual, taking issue with each other on this.

You wish to interfere with the right of religious expression of some people, justify it on the ground you don't like their politics, and when the bigotry of this is pointed out you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?

Are you quoting Bush? This is complete gibberish. I'm perplexed. So, if something offends me, say, fascism or racism, the "moral challenge" or "test" for me is to stand up for it? How about since you are offended by the Chinese/Korean protests, you stand up for them? How about making the demand on the Japanese to defer to its former victims for a change, since this undoubtedly pains you?

I have said or intimated somewhere that I am offended by the Chinese/Korean protests? This is news to me. If you could point out any place that I have done any such thing, I would appreciate it. I also don't know where you get off making assumptions about what does or does not pain me in regards to the relations between Japan and her former victims. But you seem to be so fond of leaping to conclusions, making blanket statements, and putting words into other people's mouths that I suppose I really shouldn't be surprised.

It's not so much the so-called "rage", but your, um, brilliance that blinds.

Nah, what really blinds is your, um, lack of critical reading skills.

 

[qwertyu]

You wish to interfere with the right of religious expression of some people, justify it on the ground you don't like their politics, and when the bigotry of this is pointed out you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?

You have pointed out no such thing. You have not demonstrated the logic of how objection to the political stance of ONE particular shrine = bigotry and interference into the religious expression of Shintoism in general. Care to try it again?

you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?

I did no such thing either. I drew an analogy [a less rabid and offensive one than that which you proffered about the "pertinent" arguments for eradicating Islam no less!!] to illustrate my point to you since you seem to be the only one having a great battle separating the critique of a particular political stance adopted by one particular religious entity [eg. Al Qaeda or Yasukuni] from the larger religious context to which they belong [Islam and Shintoism]. The only one accusing others of religious bigotry here is none other but you.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind if someday, bin Laden's ashes, along with his top Al Qaeda lieutenants and the 11 9/11 kamikazes, are interred and glorified as demi-gods at a prominent Muslim mosque as martyrs to the cause of thwarting American evil crusade against Islam, and where high profile Muslim leaders regularly pay their respect. By your own logic, any objection to that would be interfering in the religious freedom of Muslims.

 

[qwertyu]

I have said or intimated somewhere that I am offended by the Chinese/Korean protests?

Since you equate protests against Yasukuni shrine visits with "basically wishing to deprive others of their freedom of religion" and "bigotry", in your words, I presume that the protests offend you, unless you yourself are not offended by said "deprivation" and "bigotry".

You know, if you say A=B and B=Very Bad Thing, then you are saying A=Very Bad Thing.

 

[Mike Cash]

Since you equate protests against Yasukuni shrine visits with "basically wishing to deprive others of their freedom of religion" and "bigotry", in your words, I presume that the protests offend you, unless you yourself are not offended by said "deprivation" and "bigotry".

You know, if you say A=B and B=Very Bad Thing, then you are saying A=Very Bad Thing.

There go your critical reading skills failing you again.

Where did I equate protests against Yasukuni shrine visits with wishing to deprive others of their freedom of religion?

It is one thing to protest. It is another thing to wonder "Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?", which is what my original remarks were addressed to. Would you care to tell me how to "de-shrine" people without depriving the people who "shrined" them of their freedom of religion?

 

[qwertyu]

Mike, you can't squirm out of this. My posts have always been about the right of victims to protest Yaukuni shrine and what it stands for. You accuse me of RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY without even explaining WHICH of my words did that. Read the following over and over again until you get the sort of tripe you accuse others in a knee-jerk way, will you??? This is what you posted and accused me of:

You wish to interfere with the right of religious expression of some people, justify it on the ground you don't like their politics, and when the bigotry of this is pointed out you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?

You clearly stated here MY OBJECTION TO YAUKUNI'S POLITICS = INTERFERENCE WITH THE RIGHT OF RELIGIOUS EXPRESSION = BIGOTRY

Are you not even literate enough to understand your own posts??????

You arrive at the CONCLUSION first and foremost that I am a BIGOT and wish to deprive the Japanese of their right of religious expression, the ONLY evidence you cite is that my objection to Yasukuni's politics. To recap, my objection to Yasukuni is that they declared WWII Japanese war criminals who were responsible for the murder of millions [judged no less by your own country] as heroes and martyrs, and that Japan, despite committing heinous war crimes, was a liberator, not an aggressor of Asia, a view vehemently offensive to its victims.

Does such an objection constitute religious BIGOTRY??? I need an answer, yes or no. If "no", you need to retract your accusation.


Another question that needs your answer. If Americans object to Muslims redefining and worshipping bin Laden and 9/11 perpetrators as liberators of Islam, on the grounds that they were not liberators but terrorists and 9/11 is a crime against innocent civilians, is that an act of interference in the freedom of expression and the religious rights of Muslims???

You claimed I accused you of interfering in Muslim religious freedom. This is preposterous as in this analogy, I am asking YOU if you would consider such an objection religious bigotry. The ball is in your court.

The remains of the Japanese Hitlers and Himmlers were NOT interred at the Yasukuni shrine until 1978. Those who enshrined them there and declaring them as heroes and gods are participating in a political act, as these were politicians, whether the enshriners be Buddhist or Shintos. The religion is immaterial. The act itself is political and abhorent to the victims of these men. If Yasukuni shrine had adopted the stance that the war was a crime and that these are war criminals but that they should nonetheless be buried there not as heroes but as sinners, the reaction from the victims might have been different. But the opposite is true!

Any decent person who does not feel that war criminals should be glorified would find this glorification of the Asian Holocaust objectional.

Either dis-inter the remains and build a separate memorial, Shinto or otherwise, which would deprive rightwingers of the excuse that they are paying their respects to all Japanese soldiers at Yasukuni, or change the political rhetoric. It is that simple, and does not detract from Shintoism itself. In fact, it can be argued that glorifying crimes against humanity and war criminals is a blight on what any decent religion should represent.

Objection to the latter is what every conscientious person should do. In your own words, a formidable "moral challenge" for you, no doubt.

 

[Tonysoong]

NHK reported on May 16th, 2005Kǒng Zǐ of China said, 窶敘塚?篠、ﾂ叔齐窶｢s窶抂窶ｹﾅ?#24694;ﾂ，窶ｰ窶ｦﾂ青･窶廃ﾅ?ﾃｳ.
Modern Chinese seem to feel that this kind of virtue does not necessarily apply to the ﾋ彖ﾂ人 subhumans.

Forgiveness needs to be endorsed with hearty repentance

 

[qwertyu]

That's so true. What is there to forgive if the crime isn't even admitted???