What to do about a racist, exclusionary Japan, & why?

[GodEmperorLeto]

I thought it was more of a ceremonial thing that he really didn't believe that much in. My understanding of it is that he thought that there should be some purpose in life, some goal, and he just picked that up because there wasn't much else for him. And the public's reaction was more of shock and disbelief than anything else. I'm just going off of memory, though.

From what I've read, he was serious about that whole bushido thing. Serious enough to commit seppuku when he failed to overthrow the government.

And by reaction, I mean modern (i.e. current) reaction, not immediate. I should have written "how they currently view him", now that I think of it.

 

[osias]

But I believe not all human conflicts between groups of people are due to racism.

Definitely, absolutely, positively true. Although I don't think Yukio_Michael was trying to argue that point.

What i mean is that he seems to attribute a thing to racism, when it has nothing/little to do with it.

 

[yukio_michael]

What i mean is that he seems to attribute a thing to racism, when it has nothing/little to do with it.

Maybe it's not racism with a capital "R", with nazi-flags and burning crosses, but I still don't see what is not racist about self-agrandised ethnic exclusion, & consistant labeling & profiling... sorry.

I think the difference is that I'm talking about government policy & you are refering to the population at large. One is effected by the other, but policy is different than social mores.

 

[osias]

I think the difference is that I'm talking about government policy & you are refering to the population at large. One is effected by the other, but policy is different than social mores.

You are also talking about onsen, tv shows, etc.
Maybe we should narrow down a bit.

 

[Glenn]

Does that mean that you think that the "no gaijin" signs at onsen aren't racist, or at least race-based in some way?

 

[Maciamo]

Excellent thread !

I don't see a very bright future for Japan, wheras race relations go. Japan may always have a population of non-Japanese, what John Lie refered to as (and I like this term) "non-Japanese Japanese", but I fear that their position in society will always be abject & abased by the government of Japan; a government whom set the tone of racism & furthermore do not ever make actions to make outsiders believe the contrary.

I realised that slowly after a few months in Japan, then it grew more and more evident as time passed and I understood what people were saying around me. I finally left Japan because I got hundreds of confirmation that the Japanese will always see a Caucasian as just an "outsider that will never belong to their society" (in other terms, a "gaijin") and that the vast majority of the Japanese will always have strong racisto-nationalistic prejudices that make them feel unique and superior, often unconsciously. Those who are not like that usually end up leaving Japan for a Western country (but that does not mean that all Japanese living abroad are free of such prejudices).

 

[Maciamo]

However, I should point out that it seems hypocritical that they have a Statue of Liberty replica in Odaiba with, I presume, the tablet with "Give me your poor..." text welcoming immigrants if they should have racist policies.

My guess is that most Japanese, including the politicians who have agreed on having that replica in Odaiba, do not know that there is a text "Give me your poor..." on the statue, or they do not understand it.

 

[Maciamo]

I think the people of each country have the right to decide what they want to do. Even better when it is a democracy.

Most Belgians and French want illegal immigrants and immigrants with a criminal record out of their country, but they cannot have it done because some politicians or international organisations say otherwise. Why should Japan be exempt ? I will never admit the right of Japan or its people to decide to limit immigration or expel the foreigners they do not like as long as all European countries will not have the same right.

 

[ArmandV]

My guess is that most Japanese, including the politicians who have agreed on having that replica in Odaiba, do not know that there is a text "Give me your poor..." on the statue, or they do not understand it.

It would be interesting to hear their answer if you told them what the tablet says and means. It may be a little shocking to them.

 

[Maciamo]

Actually many countries have incredibly rigorous immigration policies. The U.S. and Canada (and I think Australia) have very loose and welcoming ones. It is easy to get a Visa to the U.S. compared to other nations.

In many Western European countries, immigrants do not even need visas anymore. Illegal immigrants tend to get regularised periodically (e.g. every two years) and obtain the right to stay, and sometimes even citizenship. In Belgium there does not seem to be visas at all for a lot of people, including those married to an EU national (like my wife). This in fact means that there is no visa for them for all the EU as there are no more passport checks or borders between EU countries (minus the UK and Ireland who are not in the Schengen visa zone).

I hear Holland is even worse than Mexico.

Certainly not. Here are the new (tougher) immigration policies for the Netherlands, as they were much too loose until now. Even this tougher version is still looser than immigration policies in Japan, Canada and Australia.

 

[Maciamo]

I've been trying to stay out of the 'Racism in Japan' type threads as if it's any worse than the rest of the world - but it's nice to read this assessment of the situation.
There have been serious race-related issues all over the world, such as ethnic cleansing and persecution.
People often think the UK is so multi-cultural and open-minded (which it often is), but there are still people who will hate on racial grounds - ranging from general suspicion to putting an axe in someone's head.

Modern Japanese are certainly not racist in the sense that they want to do some ethnic cleansing, kill foreigners or anything violent. They are a quite peaceful, indirect and hypocritical bunch. So Japanese-style racism is also peaceful, indirect and hypocritical. It is politicians saying that Japan tries its best to accommodate foreigners, but actually make all it can to curb immigration. It is Japanese people who say they are not racist, but have aberrant racist ideas like "the Japanese were originally farmers while Westerners were hunters" (while agriculture came to Japan about 2700 years after Europe !) or that foreigners will never be able to enjoy traditional Japanese arts or speak properly Japanese because they are not Japanese, but the Japanese can very well appreciate European Renaissance painters or classical music.

What differentiates Japan from Western countries on racism is how uniform the opinion of Japanese people is of "foreigners" (as a whole) and how similar are their racist ideas. It's like they were all brainwashed the same textbook of nationalistic ideologies! In contrast, in Western (and most other) countries, there are almost as many different opinions and attitudes as there are people. I do not mean to say that the Japanese have the exact same attitude toward foreigners, but the range and types of attitudes and ideas is much more limited. It's like instead of having 1 million different positions, there are 5 or 10 for 127 million inhabitants, with clear trends coming back every few people you discuss with.

 

[Maciamo]

On a side note, the Japanese most commonly feign ignorance when accused of racism. I think it would be interesting to relate that to the fact that Japan is a shame-driven society (see thread) and people do not have the same internal moral compass as Westerners, who are principally guilt-driven. This lack of moral awareness of what is right and wrong does induce some kind of ignorance regarding "politically correct" or sensitive issues from other societies. In Japan something is wrong if it is defined as wrong by society or clearly offend/hurt someone. Expressing an idea, even racist, held by the whole Japanese society cannot be seen as "wrong" as everybody thinks the same way. In Japan, if everybody does it, it is right, no matter what reason and conscience tell you.

 

[Maciamo]

Are you referring to my post? "Gaijin" itself is not really a racist term. Whether it is racist or not, it all depends on the context.

Check this thread.

I never know anyone referring to indigenous non-japanese as gaijin in daily usage. There is another term: 'zainichi'

Zainichi means "(residing) in Japan". It is used for US Troops in Japan, for example. I have always heard that non-Japanese born and raised in Japan or naturalised Japanese referred to as "gaijin" in Japan.

You seem to apply your American standard to Japan, but America is not the global standard. Calling Japan racist based on your standard seems like a manifestation of American supremacy to me.

How do you explain that I am a European and yet agree with Yukio Michael?

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

Certainly not. Here are the new (tougher) immigration policies for the Netherlands, as they were much too loose until now. Even this tougher version is still looser than immigration policies in Japan, Canada and Australia.

Didn't know that. You learn something new every day.

It is Japanese people who say they are not racist, but have aberrant racist ideas like "the Japanese were originally farmers while Westerners were hunters" (while agriculture came to Japan about 2700 years after Europe !)...

They are constantly finding earlier and earlier signs of highly advanced civilization throughout Europe. Magnificently vast pyramids, megalithic monuments, and other ruins continually crop up from earlier and earlier periods, providing more and more evidence of sophisticated sedentary populations with a highly effective government.

or that foreigners will never be able to enjoy traditional Japanese arts or speak properly Japanese because they are not Japanese, but the Japanese can very well appreciate European Renaissance painters or classical music.

Actually, it is because of those ethnocentric concepts that many Japanese will not truly understand Western culture, despite their claims. They have numerous preconcieved notions, and a skewed concept of moral relativity. These, including their concept of a society overriding an individual run against the mindset the West has inherited from Athens and Jerusalem.

 

[ricecake]

A multi-ethnic country has a problem of its own.
1992 Los Angeles riots - Wikipedia

Japan needs a labour force, but a large influx of foreign labourers may lead to racial tensions, there are costs to be paid. I think it will take a slow process.

It's wise for Japan NOT TO EXPORT foreigners to their land, multi-ethnic society can lead to racial tensions eventually.

Japan can implement a managable temporary employment-visa program.

I don't see why we nail Japan on immigration issue, this is an island nation over-populated with 150 million citizens of it's own.

 

[ricecake]

What i mean is that he seems to attribute a thing to racism, when it has nothing/little to do with it.

XENOPHOBIC is a better word for Japanese attitudes toward " foreigners ".

This is how Chinese generally perceived Japanese in those behaviors,NOT RACISM as many Western put it.

 

[caster51]

Originally Posted by Maciamo
My guess is that most Japanese, including the politicians who have agreed on having that replica in Odaiba, do not know that there is a text "Give me your poor..." on the statue, or they do not understand it.

that was a gift from france in year of japan -france as friendship.
so , the one in NY is also same like that?

 

[pipokun]

XENOPHOBIC is a better word for Japanese attitudes toward " foreigners ".
This how Chinese generally perceived Japanese in those behaviors,NOT RACISM as many Western put it.

You can find China Towns in Japan. Are Chinese as xenophobic as other Asian communites?
I don't know many Japanese Americans in the US, my friends are from the South America. But as far as I know, no yakuza or Nikkei gang, even though there are organised crime organisations in their home country, Japan.
Just work hard.

 

[pipokun]

Modern Japanese are certainly not racist in the sense that they want to do some ethnic cleansing, kill foreigners or anything violent. They are a quite peaceful, indirect and hypocritical bunch. So Japanese-style racism is also peaceful, indirect and hypocritical.
...

I still prefer peaceful, indirect and hypocritical to shot or kill others for just an MP3 player.

 

[ricecake]

that was a gift from france in year of japan -france as friendship.
so , the one in NY is also same like that?

Yeah .... NY's statue of liberty was a present from France back in the 19th century.

 

[ricecake]

You can find China Towns in Japan. Are Chinese as xenophobic as other Asian communites?
I don't know many Japanese Americans in the US, my friends are from the South America. But as far as I know, no yakuza or Nikkei gang, even though there are organised crime organisations in their home country, Japan.
Just work hard.

You have Brazilian-born Nikkei friends in Japan ? Can they speak Japanese well ?

Here in San Francisco area,a local Japanese channel aired this Japanese TV dorama " Naru et Hatsu " with English subtitle late December of 2005.It's about a poor Hokkaido family's heart-wrenching story of their journey to Brazil as " indentured farm workers ".My favorite beautiful and talented Japanese actress Ryoko Yonukura starred in it.

I only know there are some 100,000 Taiwan Chinese took up permanent residency in Japan.

Chinese define XENOPHOBIC in the sense of " exclusiveness NOT RACISM in Western mindset " for Koreans and Japanese as they're are not incline to accept other Asians and Non-Asians in their social circles or society.

 

[osias]

Does that mean that you think that the "no gaijin" signs at onsen aren't racist, or at least race-based in some way?

I'm just making a suggestion to focus on a topic like he says: "government policy"

I think the difference is that I'm talking about government policy & you are referring to the population at large.

He claims that he's talking about government policy, but it doesn't look like that. he's talking about racist onsen, racist tv shows, etc. I'm just responding to the topics he throws at us.

But if you are interested in how the "no gaijin" signs in Hokkaido started...

・小樽の浴場の外国人拒否 ロシア紙「"お風呂紛争"ぼっ発」 習慣の違い指摘
【モスクワ4日本田良一】「日出ずる国・日本で、わが漁船員たちは風呂(ふろ)にも入れず、不潔な格好で歩いてる」―。ロシアで若者を中心に人気が高い日刊コムソモリスカヤ・プラウダ紙は二日、こんな見出しを付けて小樽市の一部入浴施設がロシア人など外国人の利用を拒否している問題をユーモラスに紹介した。「北海道の小樽市で『お風呂紛争』がぼっ発した」とセンセーショナルな書き出しで始まるものの、記事の内容はいたって客観的。 銭湯などが「外国人お断り」とした経緯について、同紙はロシアと日本の入浴習慣の違いを指摘しながら「本来、体を洗う場所で、わが同胞たちは酒を飲んではバカ騒ぎ。揚げ句の果てに、日本の伝統では丁寧に体を洗って入らなければならないのに、洗い場からいきなり風呂に飛び込んだからたまらない」と、日本の報道も交えて描いた。 記事に添えられたイラストは、ロシアで使われている蒸気風呂「バーニャ」をあしらい、裸の女性が「日本人を『フロだたき(袋だたき)』にしてやるわ!」としゃれのめしている。(北海道新聞より)

It started out with a bunch of Russians who don't know the respect for the local culture. Is this a racism against the Japanese, rather than the other way round? At least, the motivation to exclude foreigners was not racist, but it turned out to be.

 

[pipokun]

Chinese define XENOPHOBIC in the sense of " exclusiveness NOT RACISM in Western mindset " for Koreans and Japanese as they're are not incline to accept other Asians and Non-Asians in their social circles or society.
Nationality:
USA
Mother tongue:
Chinese
Ethnic group:
Han Chinese

I would be highly proud of my mother tonngue, American-English, if my grand-grand parents had emigrated to the states.
But I am terribly sorry that I thought you as a Chinese guy.

 

[pipokun]

Most Belgians and French want illegal immigrants and immigrants with a criminal record out of their country, but they cannot have it done because some politicians or international organisations say otherwise. Why should Japan be exempt ? I will never admit the right of Japan or its people to decide to limit immigration or expel the foreigners they do not like as long as all European countries will not have the same right.

Diplomatie.be
4. Un extrait de casier judiciaire, ne datant pas de plus de 6 mois et couvrant les cinq dernieres annees.

けつかせ?

 

[Glenn]

But if you are interested in how the "no gaijin" signs in Hokkaido started...
It started out with a bunch of russians who don't know the respect for the local culture. Is this a racism against the Japanese, rather than the other way round? At least, the motivation to exclude foreigners was not racist, but it turned out to be.

I'm more interested in how I would be treated if I went to one of the "no gaijin" onsen and demostrated that I could speak the language and that I had a knowledge of the local customs.